Pulled over while friend was driving


PDA






Jesse H
December 30, 2002, 12:48 AM
Driving from Houston to Austin, Volvo full of us kids ranging from 17-24. Buddy and I have Texas CHL and are both carrying. He was speeding so we got pulled over by a Trooper. From a first impression, my friends and I are clean cut and nice looking folks, and after you get to know us you'll realize we're also friendly and polite.

Buddy was asked to step out of the vehicle while the rest of us passengers remained in the car. For the most part, the stop went fine except for 2 things which left a bad taste in my mouth.

1. The officer disarmed him (which is perfectly fine although silly IMO for a CHLer), removed the magazine and walked over to our car and placed it in the glove box. The Beretta had one in the pipe. Passenger in front of the glovebox was 17. He returned the magazine after the stop was over, but asked my friend, "are you mad at me?" before returning it (we found that humorous afterwards).

2. The officer ran the serial number on my friend's gun. I suppose there's nothing wrong with doing so, but wouldn't logic tell you that somebody who went thru the trouble to obtain a CHL wouldn't be carrying a stolen gun?

Other than that, the officer wasn't full of pleasantries and had an anti-CHL attitude; asking why he carried a gun, why it was loaded, why it wasn't in the glovebox or the trunk.

If you enjoyed reading about "Pulled over while friend was driving" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Mike Irwin
December 30, 2002, 12:52 AM
"Other than that, the officer wasn't full of pleasantries and had an anti-CHL attitude; asking why he carried a gun, why it was loaded, why it wasn't in the glovebox or the trunk."


And the responses to those questions were?

HABU
December 30, 2002, 12:56 AM
Surely Officer Stadanko didnt leave you before he used the word "boy", as in: "why you packin boy?

Jesse H
December 30, 2002, 12:58 AM
Originally posted by Mike Irwin
"Other than that, the officer wasn't full of pleasantries and had an anti-CHL attitude; asking why he carried a gun, why it was loaded, why it wasn't in the glovebox or the trunk."


And the responses to those questions were?

Because I have a CHL sir, it's always loaded sir, I always carry it sir. :)

Blackhawk
December 30, 2002, 01:21 AM
The trooper should do a bit of debriefing on that with a wise instructor.

What he did was effectively arm an unidentified 17yo without unloading the gun. He just took the mag out, and that doesn't unload or prevent it from firing the chambered round. Even if a gun originally was equipped with a mag safety, they're easy to disable.

Can't believe he didn't sweep the fs passenger with the muzzle, but I guess you would've mentioned it if he did.

He apparently didn't ask you or anybody else if you were armed, which makes his concern about your friend a bit out of place.

Running the SN is perfectly in order. Texas CHLs aren't tied to any particular gun, and there's no telling where your friend's actually came from even though he may have bought it from a supposedly "legit" FFL.

PATH
December 30, 2002, 01:59 AM
I am always polite and smiling regardless of what the trooper or officer says or does. Remeber as in every walk of life there are a few boneheads. Most law enforcement folks are fairly decent and not out to give you a hard time. That is my .02 cents.

rock jock
December 30, 2002, 10:43 AM
"Why do I carry? Well, Officer, for the same reason you do - to protect myself from those that would do me harm."

JMLV
December 30, 2002, 10:46 AM
about his handling of the situtation also report his unsafe gun handling. at the least he may get a chewing out for it.

King
December 30, 2002, 10:49 AM
Maybe he was having a bad day......I don't think the trooper is required to be nice and polite. I do think we should be however. Maybe he's had some bad experiences in the past.

Just chalk it up as exeprience and keep moving, your were correct in all of your actions............

Politically Incorrect
December 30, 2002, 11:25 AM
My feelings are that this officer either doesn't know or doesn't care much about guns since he left a round in the chamber while taking the magazine out.

It's amazing the number of cops and military who have never shot a firearm prior to their service. No years of training of checking whether a gun is loaded or not.

Kentucky Rifle
December 30, 2002, 11:31 AM
The officer doesn't need a chewing out for anything. Then, the "bad taste" would be in HIS mouth for those of us who carry legally. Just my opinion. No offense intended.

KR

Stinger
December 30, 2002, 11:34 AM
Bad gun handling drives me nuts. How dare he take out the mag and leave one in the pipe!

Moron (officer that is)


Stinger

DeputyVaughn
December 30, 2002, 11:45 AM
Trooper may have been having a bad day. Then again he may have just lacked experience in dealing with armed citizens. When I deal with someone who reports that they are legally armed I just tell them if they won't draw their's I won't draw mine. I do watch them more closely (and their passengers) but I don't get into their business, only mine. If I stoped them for a traffic violation that's what I deal with. If Something more suspicious occurs or becomes evident I'll deal with that. I don't understand officers that assume that just because someone rolled a stop sign or is 10 miles over the speed limit that they are habitual criminals with felonious intent. I'll watch my 6 but not at the expence of treating people like criminals.

Scott A. Vaughn

TheEgg
December 30, 2002, 11:53 AM
Great approach Deputy Vaughn -- professional and polite!

Elkslayer
December 30, 2002, 12:42 PM
DeputyVaughn you sound like a great officer.

I suppose that the officer might have had about all of the smiling he coud produce that day, I wouldn't hold it against him but would have informed him of the chambered round though.

King
December 30, 2002, 12:47 PM
DeputyVaughn...I think your view of the world and the process you described is what we're all hoping for.

Personally, I'm always courteous to LEO's whan I deal with them. I'm sure there's also a lot more to LEO's involvement with the public than would commonly thought by the average, law-abiding citizen. I'll bet there are some very awkward situations out there.

Steel
December 30, 2002, 01:16 PM
make sure you direct complaints regarding patrol officers to COs and Chiefs/Captains

cordex
December 30, 2002, 01:18 PM
Actually, Deputy Vaughn sounds kind of like the officer who stopped me a while back. Some of you may remember the thread on TFL " 'Is there a gun in the car?' or, Cordex meets Officer FriendlyCop".
The exchange went something like:
Cop: "Is there a gun in the car?"
Cordex: "Yes, sir. I carry legally."
Cop: "Where is it?"
Cordex: "My right hip."
Cop: "Okay, keep it there and we're all right."

Kevinch
December 30, 2002, 01:31 PM
"Other than that, the officer wasn't full of pleasantries and had an anti-CHL attitude; asking why he carried a gun, why it was loaded, why it wasn't in the glovebox or the trunk."


And the responses to those questions were?

I can tell you what mine was when it happened here in PA during a traffic stop while I was driving alone:

"Officer, out of respect for LE I'll answer: 'because I can'. If I didn't respect you, I'd tell you it's none of your business why I chose to exercise my right to obtain my Concealed Carry License and use it".

I drive thru this town everyday, as my place of employment is within its borders. I had already received the traffic ticket, & the law in PA does not require advising the officer if you are carrying. I told him out of respect for his position without being required to, I didn't appreciate his cocky inquiry & if not in a location I frequent, would have left off the initial phrase in my response & just said "none of your business". I really didn't want the local LE laying for me everytime they saw me driving thru town.

RustyHammer
December 30, 2002, 01:41 PM
walked over to our car and placed it in the glove box.

... an excuse to scope out the glove box for drugs, etc? Just a thought.

DeputyVaughn
December 30, 2002, 02:09 PM
Rusty Hammmer is probably right. Technically that would constitute an illegal search. If he was returning the weapon to your custody he should have given it to your friend. He had no business opening the glovebox without permission or probable cause.

I blew a guys mind just last week doing that with a knife. He was in an apartment where I was looking for another guy on a probation violation warrant. Because he was there I checked his I.D. and patted him for weapons (the apartment was a known drug house.) He was carrying a large folding knife. I kept it while we searched the rest of the rooms. Aparently he thought he'd lost it for good because he acted like he didn't know what to do when I handed his knife to him on our way out and thanked him for his co-operation. I wasn't looking for him, he had no warrants and there were no "plain view" drugs in the apartment. I had done my business, without success unfortunately, but I had done all I could legally do. This guy was probably a doper, but there was no evidence to make a charge on him, therefore no reason to harrass him further. Who knows, he may be more willing to help me at some later time. As the head of our warrant division I need all the public good will I can generate, even from the bad guys.

I'm not telling this to try to make myself look better or get atta boys from anyone. There is a right way and a wrong way to go about Law Enforcement. The right way may be harder, and may cause me to miss out on some arrest, but in 5 years I've never had a case thrown out by a judge. That's what reasonable doubt is about. If you do your job right there will be no room for reasonable doubt.

Scott

Double Naught Spy
December 30, 2002, 02:56 PM
Unfortunately, Jesse, it can be that very sort of logical reasoning that gets LEOs and others into trouble. I think that what you are suggesting is that since your buddy had a CHL, the cop should have green carded him on the issue of the gun, and many cops would have done that. It is their decision. That being said, not all CHL folks are 100%. These folks are in the vast minority, but they are still out there. In the last year, at least one CHL holder has managed to shoot a cop.

No doubt the cop's gun skills were poor, but as far as disarming your buddy and running the serial numbers, you have absolutely no reason to complain about that. As you learned in CHL class, the officer most definitely has the power to do that and subsequently to run the numbers.

In terms of being anti-gun, that is just the way it goes sometimes. Not everybody in Texas thinks everybody else should have guns.

I got stopped early last year for an expired inspection sticker and was stopped by DPS. I did the usual song and dance informing the officer that I had a CHL and was currently armed. He asked where I had the gun and I explained that one was on my right hip and the other in my left front pocket, to which he queried, "You have two guns? Why do you need two guns?" My answer seemed to satisfy him just fine, "I don't have a partner like you do." He checked my DL and wrote me up for the expired sticker and then proceeded to tell me how to handle it with the least possible expense...and I did.

rock jock
December 30, 2002, 03:02 PM
What if the 17 year old had moved it from the glove compartment and shot himself thinking it was unloaded? Who would be liable?

Double Naught Spy
December 30, 2002, 03:03 PM
Oh, and I forgot to add that if you felt like your buddy was treated improperly, then have your buddy contact the appropriate department with the information and why he thinks he was treated improperly. The gun handling issue is serious and I am sure the powers that be in the department of the officer would rather he not make that sort of mistake again. Your buddy can either submit the information as and FYI for the department or as a formal complaint if he thinks the officer behaved in a manner that was illegal or put him or his passengers at risk.

45R
December 30, 2002, 03:13 PM
What in the heck was the Trooper thinking, removing the mag and not clearing the chamber. :mad:

Poor gun handling skills especially from an individual who carries on a regular basis is completely unacceptable. :confused:

I'd report the officer so that he gets a spanking, that way he wouldnt be likely to commit that mistake again. He'll be a little more educated on the likely hood of gun safety and preventing a ND.

El Tejon
December 30, 2002, 03:41 PM
Sounds like end of shift or just a bad day. Sloppy gun handling would concern me more than his `tude. Glad you are O.K.

Jesse H
December 30, 2002, 03:43 PM
Thanks for the replies,

Buddy and I weren't really upset, just more blown away about the bad attitude recieved. My friend thought about wishing him a Merry Christmas but decided against it. We'll just learn to drive at the posted speed when cutting thru La Grange.

The Trooper's gun handling skills weren't bad per-say, but leaving a gun with one in the pipe within reach of a minor is obviously a bad move for him. I know if I were in his shoes and felt the need to disarm someone, I sure as heck wouldn't return the somewhat loaded gun to the passengers.

I understand LEO aren't expected to have customer service skills, but this guy was flat out having a bad day or didn't like CHLers despite my buddy being cordial.

Happy new years all.

Viking6
December 30, 2002, 03:45 PM
"I don't think the trooper is required to be nice and polite."

I disagree; he doesn't have to be nice but there's no reason not to be polite. And that goes for whether the person being stopped is clean cut or disheveled with snot hanging out of his nose; in this scenario, e.g. routine traffic stop. In a more tense scenario, I would understand and appreciate a less than courteous encounter. IMHO.

SoDFW Jason
December 30, 2002, 03:54 PM
I had the pleasure of meeting and receiving training from Sgt.s Butz and Coleman at the TX DPS headquarters. These two guys do the firearms training for all the new Troopers.

I can tell you both of these guys are VERY pro-CHL and they do try to teach other Troo[pers to be the same way. I guess the Trooper that pulled you over was just one that they missed. Out of all LEOs in TX, you should get the least hassle from these guys.

Deadhand
December 30, 2002, 09:10 PM
As far as running the s/n, that's common procedure with most departments, but putting a loaded firearm back into the car with unidentified subjects is just plain lousy officer safety! Here in California, there are very few folks with CCW permits, and when an officer has contact with one that does, it can be a tense situation. Even off-duty officers can be hassled by LEOs of other jurisdictions. I was pulled over by a California Highway Patrol officer several years ago. When I pulled my license out of my badge wallet, he asked, " are you packing?" I said I wasn't, but he insisted on checking anyway. I won't get into the "probable cause" questions here, but, needless to say, I was pissed. I talked to his sgt. and made my feelings known. I got a letter some time later explaining the disciplinary actions taken.

Pointman
December 30, 2002, 11:50 PM
My own experiences are similar to cordex's.

But a buddy of mine had an officer relieve him of a Star PD and do the same thing, drop the mag, drop the safety and leave a round in the chamber. I know that officer got his butt reamed thoroughly after the incident was reported (it was a cop's kid that this was done to, oops).

waterdog
January 1, 2003, 01:54 PM
Why would you post a thread like this, you are making a big deal out nothin.

Not being a cop, I can only imagine what goes through an officers mind, when making a stop.

Each and every time, a stop could turn into a life ending situation, for the cop or the citizen.

It's a fact that cops live with.

In no way, am I defending piss poor police work, or gun handling. But, you don't know where that cop had been earlier. He could have just handled a domestic, where kids were involved.

From what I understand, domestics really messes with a cops head.

If you carry, and get pulled over, then you should have already prepared for whatever attitude the oficer had. You aint the only one who has been pulled over, and been treated poorly.

I have carried for over 25 years, with many different types of firearms in the vehicle.
Been stopped many times, with no problems, and I don't have a CCW (slave permisson slip).

The first thing I do, is let them know I am armed,
sometimes the cops check the weapon, and sometimes they don't. I have learned to expect it, and deal with it on a stop to stop basis.

I suggest for those who in the future, who may get pulled over, to deal with it, and quit your whining.

IMO

waterdog

El Rojo
January 1, 2003, 02:33 PM
I pretty much had my first traffic stop contact with an office while armed the other day. I was helping a friend move and as we pulled up in front of his old house, I told him to pull up further so we didn't have to walk as far. He wasn't listening to me. I told him again. He shut off the truck. He was getting out. So I said, "Nevermind" got out and right behind us was a Taft PD officer. Oh! No wonder he wasn't pulling forward. The officer was really nice, warned him about PRK rolling stops (The California Rolling Stop), extremely nice, didn't write a ticket. I just stood there with my hands in plain view, then leaned against the truck with my hands over the side and my pistol pressed into the truck. He started to leave, I asked him his name, he told me, then I replied very friendly, "Thanks Officer Bilby". I just wanted to know his name so I could say I liked that officer. I hope he wasn't thinking I was mad or anything, but oh well.

Yes that was my first encounter with LEO while armed where they were some how doing something other than PR. He never had a clue I was armed. Why volunteer info if you don't have too?

As far as the Texas situation. Oh well. He could have done a better job. Really the only person in harms way there was the officer. The only reason I would be interested in bringing it up at all with the agency is to maybe make that officer more aware of his own safety and liablity. Sounds to me like your crew was never in danger. Not all officer are as tactically sound as we are!!! :uhoh:

Kobun
January 1, 2003, 03:45 PM
Cops and gun handeling...
Had a friend who saw a cop with an MP-5 (was some public event with some "importants" :rolleyes: visiting town) standing still with a bunch of kids running around his legs.
Finger on the trigger! :eek: (Gun on safe though)...
My friend drove up next to him: "Psst! Do you think it is vice to have your finger on the trigger with all the kids around you??"
The cops finger went "spoing" as it went streight. :)

45-auto
January 1, 2003, 05:00 PM
Deputy Vaughn wrote:

There is a right way and a wrong way to go about Law Enforcement. The right way may be harder, and may cause me to miss out on some arrest, but in 5 years I've never had a case thrown out by a judge. That's what reasonable doubt is about. If you do your job right there will be no room for reasonable doubt.

Amen, brother. You sound like my old partner: straight up and good to work with.

If you enjoyed reading about "Pulled over while friend was driving" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!