Warning shots with blanks


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Oleg Volk
December 30, 2002, 11:40 AM
We have pretty much agreed that warning shots are a bad idea for several reasons, most having to do with the path of the bullet.

What about using blanks in case of people stealing vehicles or trespassing? The main down side I see is that the perps may think themselves under attack and have a perceived reason to return fire. What of situations where the homesteader is behind cover with a rifle (has pretty good advantage) and wants to scare off the intruders without harming them? Would using blanks be a good idea, provided they don't jam the action?

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Betty
December 30, 2002, 11:53 AM
No blanks. No warning shots.

What happens if you didn't catch the car thief's lookout, who happens to be creeping up behind you - and your first "bullet" is a blank? Make the first shot count, or don't shoot at all.

Mike Irwin
December 30, 2002, 12:12 PM
Even touching off a blank could be grounds for charges being leveled against you, depending on where you are.

If you're going to pull the trigger on your gun, it had best be with full intent and necessity.

El Tejon
December 30, 2002, 12:20 PM
No.:eek:

sm
December 30, 2002, 12:23 PM
No
for reasons stated above

Neal Bloom
December 30, 2002, 12:35 PM
No. In my community it is against the law to discharge a firearm if your life is not in danger.

LeadPumper
December 30, 2002, 12:39 PM
Not a real good idea, in case you couldn't guess from the above posts.

Also, blanks can and will do damage up to several yards from the muzzle. The blast alone is still sufficient to maim or kill if close enough.

If you're going to shoot, shoot.

-LeadPumper

rlpinca
December 30, 2002, 12:45 PM
I don't plan on pointing a gun at someone unless I plan on killing them. Therefore I'd probably stay away from using blanks.

2dogs
December 30, 2002, 12:49 PM
This sounds like a bad idea to me.

And would you have another rifle loaded with real ammo in case the bg's decide to start shooting back?

No, if my life is not threatened, let them steal the car, or call the cops, or sic the dogs on them, or jump up and down and yell to scare them off.:p

Betty
December 30, 2002, 01:08 PM
Also, blanks can and will do damage up to several yards from the muzzle.

IIRC, wasn't there an actor who accidentally suicided himself with a blank when he held a prop gun up to his own head and did a "hey, watch this"?

45R
December 30, 2002, 01:18 PM
Not a good Idea for SD. The first shot might be the one that you need to make it count, and if you have it loaded with a blank vs your SD ammo the outcome might be poor for the GG.

Mike Irwin
December 30, 2002, 01:32 PM
Yes, the actor was John Erik Hexum, or something like that.

Drove the wad and gas from a .44 Mag. blank into his brain.

cordex
December 30, 2002, 01:37 PM
Yes, the actor was John Erik Hexum, or something like that.

Drove the wad and gas from a .44 Mag. blank into his brain.
Yep
Jon- Erik Hexum, playfully holding a blank-loaded pistol to his head, fired it and fatally fractured his skull on the set of the CBS series Cover Up.

TallPine
December 30, 2002, 01:41 PM
There are some other actors and actresses out there who should be playing with guns. :D

Plan-B
December 30, 2002, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by runt_of_the_litter
IIRC, wasn't there an actor who accidentally suicided himself with a blank when he held a prop gun up to his own head and did a "hey, watch this"?

If I remember correctly, Brandon Lee (Bruce Lee's son) died while shooting The Crow after getting hit by blank wads as well.

cordex
December 30, 2002, 01:49 PM
If I remember correctly, Brandon Lee (Bruce Lee's son) died while shooting The Crow after getting hit by blank wads as well.
As I understand it, they were capping over the blanks with little metal bits so they appeared to be real cartridges in close-ups. They told their gun wrangler to go home the day before the final shoot, figuring they could sort things out and save a little cash. One of the little metal covers got stuck in a chamber of one of the revolvers and when the blank was loaded behind it and fired, the metal cap was propelled into Lee's torso stopping at the spine.

Drjones
December 30, 2002, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by TallPine
There are some other actors and actresses out there who should be playing with guns. :D

:D :D :D :D

Re: the initial post: Sorry Oleg, I'm gonna have to side with everyone else here.

How 'bout just loading up your 12er with rock salt? May not be good for your cars paint, but....

Maybe, maybe MAYBE, you could use the blanks from INSIDE your house, but even then you could face charges of discharging a gun, use of deadly force, all that crapola....:rolleyes:

Greg L
December 30, 2002, 02:41 PM
In addition to all the other reasons not to do this. If your first round in the magazine is a blank will it have enough power to cycle the action to bring a real cartridge into the chamber. About the last thing I would want to happen is to have a jam right after announcing with a bang that I was starting hostilities.

Greg

Kevlarman
December 30, 2002, 04:23 PM
Why not have something else to warn them? A toy blank pistol? A megaphone? Dog with a very loud bark?

G-Raptor
December 30, 2002, 05:08 PM
Oleg,

You're kidding, right? :)

I'd be more inclined to fire a live round into the dirt. Not VERY inclined, but it would be preferable to having a blank round in the chamber.

rifleman
December 30, 2002, 05:33 PM
Rocksalt idea=good. I had a teacher who was "repelled" by it as a yung-un, said the stuff works well. ;)

Derek Zeanah
December 30, 2002, 05:38 PM
Yeah, I see a few problems here:

You're setting up your defensive arm such that the first few rounds are (hopefully) non-lethal. This leaves you in a bad spot if you need to use lethal force on short notice.
Blanks are not safe. The kinds that require a blank adapter to be bolted on the muzzle are better, but "hollywood blanks" (is there a better term for these?) can be lethal at close range, and would probably not be viewed as a reasonable response by law enforcement types.
The idea of bringing a gun into a situation that not currently at the lethal force level seems risky. You're guaranteed to escalate the situation to where anyone else involved would be willing to use real lethal force.
No guarantee here as I dodged law school (though my dad's still trying), but I don't think a jury would like the idea much.

Phyphor
December 30, 2002, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by runt_of_the_litter
No blanks. No warning shots.

What happens if you didn't catch the car thief's lookout, who happens to be creeping up behind you - and your first "bullet" is a blank? Make the first shot count, or don't shoot at all.

Not to mention that if your weapon's semi-automatic, it's not gonna cycle properly with a blank, unless adapted to fire blanks. In which case, firing LIVE ammo would be a REALLY bad idea.

Phyphor
December 30, 2002, 05:41 PM
Originally posted by Mike Irwin
Yes, the actor was John Erik Hexum, or something like that.

Drove the wad and gas from a .44 Mag. blank into his brain.

There's an error in your post, Mike. You used the word 'brain,' but clearly, this guy lacked one.

Monkeyleg
December 30, 2002, 06:01 PM
Oleg, the first response to your question was a negative from Runt. Must be fun around your house. ;)

Remember the old addage: once it's drawn consider it fired.

JackShandy
December 30, 2002, 07:26 PM
Originally posted by Drjones
How 'bout just loading up your 12er with rock salt? May not be good for your cars paint, but....

I was thinking the same thing. How about this; if you have a shotgun for home defense, load it up, but have the first shell be rock salt or something else equally "mild" and the remaining shells be the heavy stuff. If you have to shoot a bg, the first shot should make a minimun of mess in your house, but I have to think it would still be, shall we say, surprising. Intimidating, even. Then, while he's on the floor in a smallish pool of blood (and maybe a somewhat larger pool of urine), simply tell him that was his warning; if you have to shoot again, he'll die.
What do you think?

Mike Irwin
December 30, 2002, 08:25 PM
Rock salt idea = lose your house, your freedom, your money, your gun rights, your spotless record, your family, etc.

Given the propensity for people to sue, and win, settlements even when they're in the wrong, just how good an idea is this really?

Answer?

NOT.

labgrade
December 30, 2002, 08:35 PM
If you're justified in shooting at all, you're justified in using lethal force.

No half measures.

"No Sir! I didn't shoot to kill, I shot to live."

natedog
December 30, 2002, 08:40 PM
why not use some less leathal ammo the first round? a shot to the stomach will make them double up in pain, and its been recognzed that in sef defense shootings, using less leathal for the first round makes it less likely that someone will win a lawsuit against you.

Jeff White
December 31, 2002, 12:45 AM
Natedog said;

why not use some less leathal ammo the first round? a shot to the stomach will make them double up in pain, and its been recognzed that in sef defense shootings, using less leathal for the first round makes it less likely that someone will win a lawsuit against you.

Nate, recognized by who? Do you have a court cite? Check out the thread in the shotgun forum on less lethal ammo.

Oleg,

Save the threat of deadly force for actual deadly force situations. Use blanks to add realism to your training, have a friend load you magazine with one or more mixed in with the live so that it induces a malfunction you can clear, or fire them as salute rounds on the 4th of July or other appropriate occasion. Don't use them to try to scare off the bad people.

Jeff

Edward429451
December 31, 2002, 12:59 AM
There are some other actors and actresses out there who should be playing with guns.

Uhhh, Lemmee guess. Barbera Streisand? :D

labgrade
December 31, 2002, 01:07 AM
natedog,

Not to be condescending in the least, but you never shoot "non-lethal." A firearm isn't meant for that & seriously, it could be argued in court that if you weren't "in fear for ...," you weren't justified for using such drastic means/methods in the first place.

If you are justified in actually shooting the perp, you are justified in blowing a garbage can-size hole right through 'em & into next week.

Reason I'll never use something "less lethal" is that I'm protecting either my life or one that I cherish even more.

A belly shot & them doubling up in pain is a wishful thought. We'd all hope that would be the case. & if they don't?

The quote I didn't make up (wish I had) "No Sir! I didn't shoot to kill, I shot to live." would likely blow away any anti-prosecutor's wet dream. I can't wait to hear of its actual use in court.

Even the most "lethal" handgun ammunition isn't - takes time - sometime too much. Perhaps only a shotgun blast, at close range, is definitive.

Sad as that is, I didn't choose this - he perp did, & I will defend my lives. & sadly enough again, the quickest immediate death of the perp is the only way to ensure that.

Mark Benningfield
December 31, 2002, 01:21 AM
Hello All.

Oleg, here's how I see it:

I learned a long time ago that guns are not for show or for scaring people, they are for shooting. You don't pull it to brandish, you pull it to shoot. I look at blanks and warning shots the same way. If you have to acquire target, it's time to shoot. If it's time to shoot, it's time to shoot to kill. Otherwise, leave it alone and yell at them. Besides, some people are just too stupid to scare. HTH.

Cal4D4
December 31, 2002, 02:01 AM
No blank shots, but how about a flash grenade. No real bang or it could never be approved for civvies. Stun opponents vision. Would not have to give away your position. :cool:

Drjones
December 31, 2002, 05:55 AM
Sheesh! Well since my "rock salt" comment has gotten so many responses, I'll add this:

I meant that in response to Oleg's original scenario: trespassers or thieves, NOT intruders.

Home intruders deserve the REAL stuff EVERYTIME!

PS: What happened to the "quote" button??? I LOVED that guy!!! :( :impaled: (Had to try the new one too!)

natedog
December 31, 2002, 12:13 PM
no, i didn't get that from an attorney. i got it from here

"Less Lethal Pistol Ammo
For Home and Self Defense
Why Carry Home/Self Defense Less Lethal Pistol Ammunition? When a less lethal shell is used as the first round, knowledgeable courts of law and boards recognize this type of round as a legitimate attempt to defend without the intent of causing lethal injury, therefore reducing your risk of a lawsuit. Civilians want another alternative to Lethal Force. A.L.S Technologies, Inc is pleased and excited to announce a new line of Less-Lethal Pistol Ammunition for Home/Self Defense and Animal Control. These munitions are often referred to as extended range impact munitions and serve as similar role as a baton, as they are used to control a subjects behavior through pain compliance and the normal strike areas for a baton are often used as target zones. There have been hundreds of uses across the country where these munitions have been used to disarm people armed with knives and clubs, temporarily disable combative subjects and reduce the risk of unruly death and lawsuits. *See Page 21 for Less Lethal Shotgun Ammo. "


thats from the delta force on-line catalog. yes, it probably would be best not to take this as serious legal advice.

Mike Irwin
December 31, 2002, 03:44 PM
Dr. Jones,

"I meant that in response to Oleg's original scenario: trespassers or thieves, NOT intruders."

Still the same response.

You don't shoot at someone with anything unless they're a threat.

Doing so can result in criminal prosecution and all of the other things that I mentioned.

If someone peppered me with rock salt from a shotgun, even IF I was trying to steal his tires, you can better bet I'm going to get myself a big-time shyster and sue for everything I can get.

cratz2
December 31, 2002, 04:27 PM
I agree... no blanks. If my finger's on the trigger, I'm prepared to have the muzzle pointed at the bad guy and I want more than powder and metal fragments coming out.

So many things going against the idea of blanks - what if the action doesn't cycle? What if you don't have time for three shots (to get to the first real bullet)? What if you kill the bad guy with the little metal fragments from the blank?

TallPine
December 31, 2002, 04:53 PM
Hmmm... would the Delta Force catalog be accepted as a reference source by the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals ????

:rolleyes:

clem
December 31, 2002, 10:03 PM
If the "event" warrants a "shot", then use a live round and shoot to "stop", which realy means shoot to kill.

CAP
December 31, 2002, 10:12 PM
No blanks. If you are pulling the trigger it needs to be a live round.
In what scenario would you feel significantly threatened enough to pull the trigger, but not enough to even wing 'em?

Not a good idea. At least in an urban/suburban environment.

Now out in the country, life's slightly different.

Jeff White
December 31, 2002, 10:18 PM
I'm all for people being able to own anykind of weapon they want, but I wonder what kind of liability Delta Force company takes on marketing and advertising products that way?

Less lethal handgun rounds? Considering how ineffective the 12 gauge ones are, I can only image how effective a handgun version might be.

Jeff

pax
December 31, 2002, 10:44 PM
Something else.

If a BG puts you in fear for your life, you may kill him with relative impunity -- as the courts will recognize that you acted in self defense.

If you put the BG in fear for his life, then he may kill you with relative impunity -- as the courts will recognize an action made in self-defense.

Of course, if you're dead, that won't matter to you at all. But it might matter to your survivors.

pax

Tamara
December 31, 2002, 11:18 PM
Blanks have one good use:

I'm about to run 20 of them through my Daewoo in thirty-five minutes... Happy New Year, y'all! :D

Blackhawk
January 1, 2003, 01:17 AM
Blanks are good for starting races and training recruits to execute tactical maneuvers without killing each other. Otherwise, I can't come up with any good reasons for their existence.

Shotgun blanks were used to keep birds from roosting near hotels. Took the birds 2-3 weeks to learn to ignore them....

Double Naught Spy
January 1, 2003, 10:59 AM
"Warning shots" with real rounds are always to be directed COM and only later identified as warning shots if it turns out that they did not in fact hit the bad guy.

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