Illegally altered Glock mags?


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Beren
December 30, 2002, 03:51 PM
Need some advice:

Recently I purchased what I thought, and the dealer (owner of a local gunshop) assured me, were pre-ban full capacity Glock magazines. The backs of the magazines were oddly scuffed along almost their entire length. At the time I noted it was very unusual but it didn't set off any clear alarms.

After inspecting the magazines more closely, it appears that someone sanded out the 'LE use only' stamp and roughed up the rest of the back to try and conceal the alteration.

What should I do?

I have stopped carrying the magazines. They're locked up and will stay that way until I make a decision as to what I should do next.

Currently, my course of action appears to be:

1. Visit the dealer, voice my concern and show him the magazines. Request a full refund and return the magazines to him.

If the dealer refuses:

1. Remind him that selling post-ban magazines to non-LEO/FFLs is a federal offense, just as it is a federal offense for me to possess them. While the magazines are not clearly marked, the markings on the back makes me reasonable doubt their legitimacy.

I don't want to make any ultimatums, nor do I want to be out all the cash I paid thinking these were legal magazines.

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KMKeller
December 30, 2002, 03:59 PM
Photograph and document then go back to the dealer. Keep your wits about you and don't get angry if he expresses disinterest in doing what's right (refund). If he rejects the notion, then thank him and head over to the PD with documentation and receipts.

G-Raptor
December 30, 2002, 05:20 PM
Your plan sounds right to me.

Normally, I don't support ratting out gun dealers, but this guy didn't just forget to dot an "I" or cross a "T", he put you at risk. Maybe he didn't know, but that's unlikely.

My guess is, if he knows that YOU know, you should get your money back in a hurry. Hopefully he won't try to pawn them off on the next unsuspecting guy.

If you WANT to buy altered mags, that's one thing, you're accepting the risk. But selling them without disclosure is shady business.

Sodbuster
December 30, 2002, 05:43 PM
That's that difference among people. I'd keep them, use them, say nothing. As my old sig line said, there are commands of the sovereign one does not accept. (Sun Tzu) I truly believe that. I guess that doesn't make me right?

Beren
December 30, 2002, 05:55 PM
Originally posted by Sodbuster
That's that difference among people. I'd keep them, use them, say nothing.

It's a personal choice. As much as I disagree with the current full-cap magazine laws, the risk (admittedly minimal for this particular offense) of losing my gun rights is not worth the gain of having an extra three rounds in my compact Glock.

Mark Tyson
December 30, 2002, 05:55 PM
I wouldn't blame you if you kept them, but if the dealer knew of their condition sold them anyway that is wrong. He is putting other people at risk(legal risk, anyway) without their knowledge. Personally, I wouldn't snitch on him, but I would definitely let him know how I felt.

If you do choose to retain the mags, understand what the consequences will be should you be discovered.

"You pays your money; you takes your chances."

Sodbuster
December 30, 2002, 06:07 PM
It's a personal choice.
Exactly right, Beren. Everyone has different circumstances. BTW I'm glad you noticed I said "I would" and not "you should." :)

*8*
December 30, 2002, 06:46 PM
Originally posted by Beren
Need some advice:

Recently I purchased what I thought, and the dealer (owner of a local gunshop) assured me, were pre-ban full capacity Glock magazines. The backs of the magazines were oddly scuffed along almost their entire length. At the time I noted it was very unusual but it didn't set off any clear alarms.

After inspecting the magazines more closely, it appears that someone sanded out the 'LE use only' stamp and roughed up the rest of the back to try and conceal the alteration....


Hmm.. are you sure, you're not from the ATF? :p

If you knowingly possess a post ban mag then you should get rid of it a.s.a.p.

Beren
December 30, 2002, 07:51 PM
Originally posted by *8*
If you knowingly possess a post ban mag then you should get rid of it a.s.a.p.

If I knew for sure that it was, I would get rid of it. Unfortunately, the markings are ambiguous, though enough to make me uncomfortable. I won't be able to get to the dealer's until tihs weekend (he lives an hour from me) but I will call his shop tomorrow and see what he says.

cratz2
December 30, 2002, 10:54 PM
If the dealer charged you anywhere near the going rate for the magazine, he should refund your money and smile while doing it. I've never had to 'rat out' a dealer and would find no pleasure in doing so however he knowingly or unknowingly broke the law. If unknowingly, he should be more than happy to refund your money, if knowingly, he and some guys in black suits need to have a talk.

Either way, you should call right now and leave a message on his machine and get it taken care of on the next business day.

4v50 Gary
December 31, 2002, 02:58 AM
I'd be pissed if the dealer sold the post-ban LE magazines at a pre-ban magazine price. Fraud, pure and simple and certainly not worth any potential time with Bubba (why are big fat inmates called Bubba?). While I wouldn't call the ATF, I'd insist on a refund so I could buy real pre-bans with my money.

cratz2
December 31, 2002, 05:30 PM
While I wouldn't call the ATF, I'd insist on a refund so I could buy real pre-bans with my money.

But what would you do if the dealer refuses and tells you to get the hell out of his store? The dealer that knowingly sells illegal mags isn't probably going to rush to refund your money.

Ian
December 31, 2002, 05:53 PM
My first reaction was to suggest ignoring the law (it's misconceived, unconstitutional, and wrong anyway) and keeping the mags. But...

The market value of an illegally sold LE mag is less than an identical legal preban mag, due to the penalties for possessing the LE one (and the fact that legal ones are still available). If you think the dealer knows what he sold you, you might give him the option of replacing them with prebans (or giving you our money back) or else refunding you a percentage of what you paid, to reflect the lower value of illegal mags.;)

spacemanspiff
December 31, 2002, 05:53 PM
why couldnt you destroy the magazines, chalk it up to a loss, and anonymously report the dealer to the ATF?
or do you REALLY think they will let you get away with unknowingly commiting a crime?

Beren
December 31, 2002, 06:44 PM
Well, I spoke with the dealer over the phone. He was very quiet while I explained why I needed to return the magazines. The earliest I can visit his store is Friday evening (depending on traffic) or Saturday. I expect that I'll receive a full refund, we'll see what happens.

If the mags were clearly marked as LEO only, I would document, destroy (but retain the remains as evidence), give the store owner a chance to reimburse me, and file in small claims court if he failed to do so.

Beren
December 31, 2002, 06:46 PM
Let me amend that. If they were clearly marked, I wouldn't have bought the darn things in the first place!

Zander
December 31, 2002, 07:44 PM
Just out of curiosity, what did you pay per mag?

Beren
December 31, 2002, 07:53 PM
It was in the mid-$80 range.

triggertime
December 31, 2002, 08:20 PM
Originally posted by Beren:
It was in the mid-$80 range.

Ouch. LEO-only post-ban hi-cap Glock magazines run about $15. So by defacing the mag and selling it to you illegally, the dealer made upwards of $70. That smarts. I really hope you get your money back.

4v50 Gary
December 31, 2002, 10:10 PM
cratz2 - if the dealer wanted to be nasty about it. I'd drop the matter and send it the ATF then. Let the government deal with him.

The distinction is that I would allow the dealer to refund my money and I wouldn't say a word. Refusal would bring retaliation. He's a cheat who isn't going to get away with it.

Sodbuster
December 31, 2002, 10:58 PM
He's a cheat who isn't going to get away with it.
Sheesh, am I slow or what? :D I've been looking at this as a political statement. The money paid for an LE magazine is definitely the crux of the matter. Glad you had some good advice here, Beren.

Hkmp5sd
December 31, 2002, 11:02 PM
If he wasn't so greedy, he could get away with it. You can buy replacement magazine bodies from Brownell. Using the replacement bodies and the official "Glock" parts, he could claim to be selling New Glock factory pre-ban hicaps and no one would know.

Beren
December 31, 2002, 11:06 PM
You can buy replacement magazine bodies from Brownell. Using the replacement bodies and the official "Glock" parts

Wouldn't the replacement bodies lack the Glock stamp on the back?

Hkmp5sd
December 31, 2002, 11:36 PM
Yep, but most folks wouldn't know as long as the base had Glock on it.

Triad
January 1, 2003, 02:32 AM
You can buy replacement magazine bodies from Brownell.
From what I've seen at GlockTalk, those replacement bodies are just about worthless. Seems they are very poorly made.

444
January 1, 2003, 02:54 AM
Before we go on a witch hunt here let's think about this a minute. #1 From your posts it appears that you don't even know for sure that they are LE only mags. You only suspect it.
#2 We don't know that the dealer was even aware of the situation. After all, I presume you looked at them in the store and didn't notice the problem. Why should we think the dealer did ?
#3 Before we burn the dealer at the stake, why don't we see what he says when Beren takes them back and talks to him. For all we know the guy will apologize and make everything wonderful again.

There is a similar thread going on this board and I made the following post on that thread. Although I haven't heard anything definitive that this guy is trying to do anyting dishonest, I think the logic still applies.

Look, I see where you are coming from. It sounds like the guy was less than honest. But is it really worth possibly ruining the guys life over this mag. I can see not wanting to get yourself in trouble, and I can see you being mad about the whole situation, but what you are talking about doing could have some huge consequenses for this guy. I don't know the guy, and I am not sticking up for what he did to you, but I think you should reconsider.
There have been countless threads posted about shooting someone over personal property. Many people argue that your personal property isn't worth someone's life. This is very similar.
Worst case senario, you throw the mag in a river somewhere and take the loss. It is terrible that you would have to do that. But possibly bringing down the ATF on this guy is way out of line.

In this case you would be ruining this guys livelyhood, and possibly also getting him into some very serious legal hot water. Granted, if he knew these were LE only mags, he was doing the same thing to you, but two wrongs don't make a right. If he stiffs you, you can get rid of the mags and you are out $160. That sucks and it isn't right. But if you follow through with going to the police, the ATF, seek legal action etc. You are probably taking everything this guy has possibly including his freedom. $160 vs. everything he has.

Blackhawk
January 1, 2003, 03:02 AM
Again 444 tosses the cool water of reason onto a volatile situation. :D

Preacherman
January 1, 2003, 11:20 AM
If the mags had been bought from a private seller, my advice would be the same as in this thread (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?threadid=1451) about a similar problem. However, since this is a dealer, I'd give him more of a chance to make good - he may genuinely have been misled about the magazines. If he won't make good - see my other response!

Beren
January 1, 2003, 12:24 PM
Like I said, I'll be visiting the store owner this weekend to return the magazines. I don't expect that there will be a problem receiving a full refund.

If there /is/ a problem, I have no qualms seeking action against the owner. He may not have realized the problem at the time of the initial sale, but he has an obligation to make things right once I present reasonable proof.

KMKeller
January 1, 2003, 12:41 PM
You are probably taking everything this guy has possibly including his freedom. $160 vs. everything he has.

And if he refuses to make the situation right, he is doing the exact same thing to you by putting you in violation of law.

Hkmp5sd
January 1, 2003, 12:50 PM
Bury them in the backyard and when the AW ban goes away next year, dig them up and use them. :)

Beren
January 1, 2003, 12:52 PM
Bury them in the backyard and when the AW ban goes away next year, dig them up and use them.

Feh. I'm better off buying a one-year CD with the refund money and buying about 10 full-caps after the ban expires. ;)

geekWithA.45
January 1, 2003, 09:25 PM
Of American time, effort, and thought, OVER A BLEEPING BOX WITH A SPRING.

I mean, here's a group of law abiding folk actually AGONIZING over such a simple thing.

This box with a spring is legal, but this EXACT SAME one isn't because it was made after thus and such date, and has a mystical rune inscribed on it.

Kudos to you, who respect the law, and seek to abide in it.
Curses to you, who make the law, that honest men might suffer.

444
January 1, 2003, 09:31 PM
"And if he refuses to make the situation right, he is doing the exact same thing to you by putting you in violation of law."

So what ?

We all have decisions to make in our lives. He made his and we are appalled by it. Yet we see no problem with doing the same thing to him. Why ? Because as they say on the grade school playground, he did it to me first. And I'm telling.

labgrade
January 1, 2003, 10:35 PM
"Kudos to you, who respect the law, and seek to abide in it.
Curses to you, who make the law, that honest men might suffer."

How aptly put, geekWithA.45

That we would even be put into such a position is beyond my comprehension.

A small steel box, one made at 11:59PM on one day is OK, while that same thing, made one (OK, call it two) minute/s later is grounds for a felony - and all that entails.

Here's to your Project Exile & "let's just enforce the laws on the books."

(massive vomit here)

Beren
January 4, 2003, 11:57 PM
Situation resolved.

Visited the dealer today, who had taken it upon himself to get up to speed on Glock magazines and such. He had an LEO only magazine on hand and we compared them; the two magazines I had purchased were indeed illegally altered. I exchanged one for a legal pre-ban magazine, and returned the other for the mag I had traded in on it + the difference in cash.

I would've preferred a straight cash refund, but things worked out fair enough.

He said he purchased the mags from "an individual." I wished him luck on getting his money back, thanked him for the service, and will shop there again in the future.

Redlg155
January 5, 2003, 12:56 AM
Good you got the situation resolved.

I would definitely be wary of any future dealings with him.

He had an LEO only magazine on hand and we compared them;

That means he knows exactly what a LEO magazine is. You can bet he examined the magazine when it came into his shop initially. Just as a jeweler knows how to check for real gold or fake gold, a gunshop dealer knows how to check for the real Pre Ban mag and an altered LEO mag.

It's his business. If he's that much of a fool he'd go broke in a heartbeat.

Good Shooting
RED

TheeBadOne
January 5, 2003, 01:11 AM
I would avoid this dealer in the future if possible. :cuss:

labgrade
January 5, 2003, 01:19 AM
What trashes me is the inherent fact that a piece of metal, made 10 seconds before another of the same manufacture, is OK, while the other is a felony.

Somehow "lost." by some, in this thread.

& we, who would hope to define what our country even means would have to "agonize" over such a discussion .....

(don't we have a :puke: symbol ... ? )

WilderBill
January 5, 2003, 01:23 AM
Glad it all worked out.
Is it just me, or is this sort of thing becoming more common?
I will be glad when the AW ban expires and all hi caps become one low price and easy to get. Then the LEO marked ones will become a curiosity to be used, laughed about openly traded or whatever you might want to do with them.
Here's to freedom!

KMKeller
January 6, 2003, 04:55 PM
We all have decisions to make in our lives. He made his and we are appalled by it. Yet we see no problem with doing the same thing to him. Why ? Because as they say on the grade school playground, he did it to me first. And I'm telling.

444, It would be wonderful if it was as simplistic as you make it sound, but the fact remains that it is indeed a person's liberty, freedom and their ability to provide for and protect their family that is at stake. It has nothing to do with "he did it to me first". It has much more to do with "one phone call from him and the ATF is kicking in my door, confiscating my weapons and locking me up". You may wish to put your fate in another's hands, but I for one am not. Fortunately, the dealer made right.

Daniel T
January 6, 2003, 06:18 PM
KMKeller has the right of it. Not only did this guy try to cheat you financially, he put you at risk of committing a felony. If you want to commit a felony knowingly, that's your business, but it's your decision. What this guy tried to do isn't just dishonest, it's downright criminal.

BTW, I don't buy that he didn't know what he was selling. If Beren noticed that something wasn't right with the mags, then the dealer damn well should have as well.

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