The "new" 10mm craze


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Bob Thompson
December 30, 2002, 04:40 PM
I too went for the 10mm handgun cartridge when it first came out but now wonder where it fills the nitch in handguns. For the bigger is better crowd I now shoot .45 super out of an HK full size. I have long been a believer in large bores for self defense but wonder if with proper bullets too much energy will not completely dump in a body, as hunters have known for a long time. My HK would be mostly for severe adverse circumstances where penetration would be needed. Woods carry, etc. I think a proper expanding bullet, especially .40 caliber and above at moderate velocities would dump more energy in a body even if totally penetrating if kept at moderate speeds. I.E. 10mm or .45 ACP @ 900-1000 F.P.S. Why then the new craze over 10mm when it would seem .40 S&W or .45 ACP would suffice. P.S. I sure hope not to start a war here and please consentrate on the energy question.

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BamBam
December 30, 2002, 05:08 PM
I'd LOVE a 10mm if it wasn't so expensive to shoot. Just because of the power.

You can find 10mm enthusiasts here:
http://www.bren-ten.com/

krept
December 30, 2002, 05:41 PM
I'd love a 10mm too if I had enough money to afford another pistol.

BTW, Triton's 450 SMC in a USP is fun :D.

waittaminute... didja say a new 10mm craze?

cheygriz
December 30, 2002, 06:59 PM
I have two 10MM handguns. They are fun to shoot, flat shooting out to 100 yards,and easy to reload for. I have two .45s and a .40. For basically the same reasons. (They don't shoot as flat as the 10MM, though) I have four 9MM weapons. Same reason.

For defense, I feel just as well armed with a 9MM as I do with a 10MM, .40, .45. or .480 Ruger.

I have different guns for fun. If a major manufacturer came our with an 8.5 MM magnum plastic frame DA/SA high capacity, I'd probably buy one. I'd also buy a .25 Super if it was available.

Porter Rockwell
December 30, 2002, 07:03 PM
The centimeter and the Super are both capable of top loadings of 200s@1400fps so on the surface it would seem that the .45 has the obvious edge. Just for grins what about comparing light and fast loadings?
The 10mm will run a Nosler 135@1800fps+ which gives a paper energy in excess of 1000fpe and serious splat factor on tissue that's noticably lacking in the heavier and slower loads in both calibers,ie- 230s@1250 from the Super and comparable 10mm loads.
Where to find a light .45 bullet to compare? How fast can a 155gn .45 be loaded?
Thanks for the topic, after all these years I still havn't decided which of the two calibers I prefer!

AndABeer
December 30, 2002, 07:08 PM
I see a lot of entheusiasm for the 10mm on many of the online boards but it does not seem to be translating to the gun shops and ranges that I frequent. I'd love for my favorite cartridge to be more popular and hence less expensive but I don't really see it happening any time soon. Hope I am wrong.

Glock Glockler
December 30, 2002, 08:39 PM
Hopefully it's not just a craze, it's one of the best damn calibers in the gun world and it's not gotten it's due just yet. Although I might be speaking a bit hypocritically here, since I don't own a 10mm (yet), I think every 10mm fan out there should introduce other shooters to the 10mm so we can spread the faith.

If we shoot it, it will come (the reign of the 10mm).

I guess I'm a non-practicing 10mm acolyte.

Marcus
December 30, 2002, 10:20 PM
I think a better way to phrase that question is "*why not* a new 10mm craze?". It`s super adaptable for an auto pistol cartridge, it does everything a .45ACP will do plus and it holds more ammo in the same sized gun (stupid idiotic laws not withstanding),it`ll match the .45 Super in power but has a wider selection of bullet weights and better cross sectional density for better penetration, it taught the .40 everything it knows (fitting since the .40 is it`s offspring) and powerwise it`s more than the equal of any good .357 magnum load but with a larger bore. You never hear "why a .357 magnum?" or "is the .357 magnum obsolete?". The 10mm is a great round with a LOT going for it,folks just need for put it in perspective and get over their 10mmphobia. ;) Marcus

barnpatrol
December 31, 2002, 12:26 AM
The "too much energy will not completely dump in a body" is an efficiency argument. For example, why would 3000 lbs (out of a possible 4000) of energy be worse than 2000/2000. I want more energy total, not a better percentage, dumped on the target.

4v50 Gary
December 31, 2002, 01:00 AM
There will always be pistoleros who enjoy full power bullets. Part of the reason why the 10 mm lost it's initial momentum was the failure of numerous guns (S&W 1076, Colt 10 mm Delta Elite?) because of the hotter load and second, the reducing of power for smaller (FBI) agents. The 10 (as well as the 9mm) was then swept away by the 40 S&W which took LE and the civilian market by storm (I still don't have a 40 but I bought a 40 bbl for my Glock 20). the 10 mm lingered and hopefully this revival will breathe new life into this venerable cartridge.

duncan
December 31, 2002, 02:16 AM
Wish there was a 10mm craze.

A couple dozen LEAs do carry and issue 10mm handguns primarily the Glock 20 to their officers.

That's also my winter carry gun. A Glock 20, stock barrel, 24 # Wolff recoil springs and rod, and a hi cap loaded with 175 grain Win Silvertips. 600 fpe in a concealable gun.

Also have conversion barrel in 357 sig and 40SW for the Glock 20 too. Very versatile gun. If the chips were down and a 300 pound crackhead in a heavy parka rushes you, that setup will save your bacon.

Many other caliber will not penetrate deep enough or dump enough energy into the threat. That's why many cops still have shotguns with slugs on board.

No craze. Just talk. But 10mm is a reloaders round. Seen boxes at sproting goods stores for $25. But it still reloads just as cheap as 45 ACP at less than $4 a box for quality compenents and accuracy like no other.

The key is most people talk about 10mm and few actually shoot it.

Get a friend with a 10mm to take you to the range and test various caliber out on old pumpkins from Halloween. 10mm just explodes that puppies.

I have carried most of the below and happily choose 10mm due to its pentration and expansion in almost any conditions. don't HAVE to go through glass but I know 45 ACP has those problems. That's why the FBI carries 40SW.

And the FBI would carry 10mm but too many agents are former professional collegaues of mine and are literally still "afraid" of their guns after graduating from the Academy. So they modified the 10mm case and cut the charges down to get the 40SW.

I'd feel comfortable with 40SW, 357 sig, and 10mm on the street in that order.

9mm and 45 ACP are great competition rounds but are too light and too slow respectively.

So if people are asking for more, that's why 10mm keep scoming up.

It's a REAL smack down go back from whence you came get out of my friggin face and my house and don't come back round. Not that I'm biased or anything;)

duncan
December 31, 2002, 02:24 AM
Big and fast IS the ticket.

Just consider deer hunting with .30-06 versus a shotgun slug. The rilfe round takes the deer but bambi can still run 50-100 yards.

Ever hunt deer with shotgun slugs? Or a Marline 45-70 Guide Gun? They anchor deer those puppies to the ground they stood on. Amazing with the slugs and 405 grain rounds will do to prey.

Deer usually just DROP so loud you can almost hear the THUMP. And 10mm offers that. 357 sig is a nice round too for two leggeds - I carry it. But it's no 10mm.

40 super and 45 super and 450 smc are cool but most 45 acp guns were never designed to take much shooting past the 1200 fps range over the life of the gun.

The key is most people truly are uncomfortable with recoil. So they avoid hard hitting rounds.

But if you can shoot 357/41/44 mag, you can handle 10mm.With 10mm, you can load from 135 to 220 and shoot as soft as a 45 ACP or go hunting with some nuclear deer slayer rounds. few guns offer that!

So I guess I am crazy about the 10mm?

Caught it yet?

twoblink
December 31, 2002, 04:51 AM
I'm of the "as much power as you can control accurately" and so if that's a 10mm, God bless you.

Bob Thompson
December 31, 2002, 10:36 AM
Thanks much folks for all the fine replys. Maybe I will again jump on the 10mm bandwagon. After all a new gun is always a good investment and just plain fun.

Peter M. Eick
December 31, 2002, 04:30 PM
I think you will find the 10mm to be fun, and powerful. Once you get used to it, shooting a 9mm seems like a pop gun, a 40 is a nice push, a 45 is somewhat passe, but a full power 10 round is Exciting.....

AndABeer
December 31, 2002, 05:39 PM
which is an interesting point, though hardly excessive, the recoil of full power loads will make other more standard auto chamberings seem mild and thus easier to shoot, think of the 10 as weight training for your other autos :)

agtman
December 31, 2002, 08:39 PM
"the failure of numerous guns..."


This one's another overblown myth. My Smith 1076, like my recently acquired S&W 1006, runs just fine with the "heavy & fast" 10mm loads. Of course, with the hot loads they should be properly sprung.

My 1076 has some 3000+ rounds thru it and, while not all of those were hot enough to bring down a helicopter, most were well beyond the watered-down velocities of the 10mm "FBI-Lite" (essentially a .40Swishy-Walker load).

Some early Delta Elites did experience frame cracking, but no one ever accused Colt of using recoil springs that were too strong. Colt quickly fixed the frame-cracking, and the later DEs ran just fine.

This past fall I put 500 medium-to-hot rounds thru one I acquired from an aquaintance. Ran fine in its stock form. No parts flying hither and yon. No handgrenading. No Kabooms. Quite accurate. In fact, I liked it so much it's now away being customized. Look for a Range Report in, say, 6 months.

If you're searching for original strength factory 10mm to run thru your pistol, there's no better place to look, IMO, than Texas Ammunition Company. They offer 4 hot 10mm loads, and all of it is NO B.S. 10mm.

http://www.texas-ammo.com

Here's a Range Report I did a while back on TAC's "heavy & fast" 200gn loads using 3 different but commonly-owned 10mm pistols.

http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=84117

Some comments on "original theory" 10mm and the cartridge's 20 year history, as I see it:

http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=82893

Iggy
January 1, 2003, 07:24 AM
Check out the Dan Wesson Razorback..

Series 70 1911 stainless steel..

Looks like a nice gun...Outstanding customer service and support.

Start shipping the end of this month..

Midnight
January 2, 2003, 01:21 AM
The Dan Wesson Razorback has brought a brief resurgence in 10mm popularity that I really hope sticks. I own a Glock 29 and a SS Colt Delta Elite. A Glock 20 is high on my handgun list :)

All I can say is "Believe none of the 10mm myths you read, they are all bunk."

Ammo is $9.00/box bought online.
Recoil is nothing to be scared of and less painful than a Kel-Tec P11, IMO.
Ammo IS available, from many sources.

Porter Rockwell
January 2, 2003, 01:31 AM
I apologize if this is somewhat off topic but as I recall the Colts in STS (stainless) had galling problems because of similiar stainless formulas?
Has DW covered this particular problem?
Precisely the similiar sts problems were between slide and frame.
Thank you.

denfoote
January 2, 2003, 04:37 AM
I support the craze!! I just got a G29!!:)

Marshall
January 2, 2003, 04:51 AM
I would love to see HP's, CZ's. USP's, Etc., offered in 10MM! I would be a buyer assuming reliablity was no problem.


Marshall :)

stans
January 2, 2003, 07:57 AM
I apologize if this is somewhat off topic but as I recall the Colts in STS (stainless) had galling problems because of similiar stainless formulas?

Early all stainless semi-autos did have some problems with galling. This can be overcome by using different heat treatments on slides and frames or using different alloys. I think by the time Colt introduced the 10mm Delta Elite, they had solved the galling problem.

thisaway
January 2, 2003, 12:43 PM
I guess you could say I'm a "10mm crazy" also...I bought my Glock 20 in 1991, one of the first few thousand imported. Also have a S&W 610.

I grew up seeing the Bren Ten in the "Miami Vice" TV show and just thinking how cool that looked. I decided that I had to have one. Never could find a Bren, so I bought the G20 on my 21st b-day.

I have never regretted the purchase, and probably use the G20 more than all my other pistols combined.

The 10mm is a great round, in my opinion.

Jspy
January 4, 2003, 04:03 AM
I'm doing my part. Have a new Dan Wesson Razorback on the way. #29 of 150...:D

tex_n_cal
January 5, 2003, 01:05 AM
mmmm....:D just finished installing a Bar-sto 10mm barrel in my Delta Elite, loading ammo for it tomorrow morning & hopefully chrono'ing some.

I like the Cor-bon loads - I saw 1440 fps with their 135 gr loads.

The 10mm is a good cartridge - I'd like to see more of them in production. Think of it as a 9 shot .357 magnum:D

As agtman said in his thoughtful review, the 10 will show you the weakness in any springs or mags you have on board. So far my Delta only likes the blue Colt magazine that came with it, which by the way has the strongest spring of my four magazines.

biere
January 6, 2003, 08:20 PM
I think it has been well covered by many.

Basically I got into the 10mm because in my opinion it competes with many wildcats. And while it may not always win the power struggle, it does not lose it in a major way either.

I always annoy my friends who talk about power per round. Usually a glock 20 with all 16 rounds can compete with overall power numbers when you add it up and compare to whatever. In some cases it beats them as well since you are talking 10 or fewer rounds.

My glock 10mms have lots of optional aftermarket parts while some of the custom stuff has almost nothing unless it is custom made.

I plan to get some of the other factory 10mm firearms, I think the round has the ability to do self defense with proper hollowpoints, or hunting with proper penetration rounds.

Overall, I call the 10mm my cheap wildcat round.

ReadyontheRight
January 7, 2003, 07:00 PM
10mm is legal for deer hunting in Minnesota, whereas .45 ACP is not. I believe this is the only autoloader bigger than a .22 (except for a few Magnum Research guns) we can carry in the woods during deer season. This is the only reason I'd ever consider getting one, but .357 or .44 wheelguns still seem like better options.

DeltaElite
January 8, 2003, 10:19 PM
I just got me a Delta Gold Cup, so yes the craze is on. :neener:

Lamont
July 30, 2009, 09:45 PM
What grain is best for accurate shooting a EAA Witness, i want to use it for deer hunting is it even plausable to use it for deer hunting

greenlion
July 30, 2009, 10:18 PM
Friend of mine at the local gun shop says they are selling every 10mm Glock they can get in, the first day they get them. I think the new Glock 20SF and 29SF have fueled a lot of increased interest in the round. The glock has been the one handgun in constant production that has stood up to the 10mm round well, and now they are smaller to fit almost anyone's hand size.

My guess is that if Glock could have slimmed down their 10mm gun back when the FBI was running their trials in the late 80's, we wouldn't have the .40S&W at all.

Acera
July 30, 2009, 10:48 PM
Check out the prices of 10mm ammo, it's < 1/2 the price of that powerhouse the .380 right now. Georgia arms has it for $390/1000 for 180 gr FMJ.

I really like the Double Tap stuff, at least it is loaded to full potential, not like the underpowered stuff the big name brands sell.

SharpsDressedMan
July 30, 2009, 11:20 PM
Want to see if the 10mm would sell? Make the ammo the same price as .45's, and have SIG, HK, the 1911 makers, etc all come out with a new gun for it. I have debriefed some police agencies that have used or are using the 10mm, and in general, they were all impressed with it. One of my best performing handguns is a Caspian based custom from SDM Fabricating. It is all business, and performs perfectly. I think the 10mm is for all those people that can't decide between a 9mm, .40, or .45. They all should get a 10.

saturno_v
July 31, 2009, 12:44 AM
Part of the reason why the 10 mm lost it's initial momentum was the failure of numerous guns (S&W 1076, Colt 10 mm Delta Elite?)

Agtman is right, the S&W models are considered the strongest 10 mm handguns ever built, they were designed from the ground up around the full spec 10 mm cartridge

As for the Colt DE, onyl the early models developed cracking issues.

What grain is best for accurate shooting a EAA Witness, i want to use it for deer hunting is it even plausable to use it for deer hunting
January 8th, 2003 07:19 PM



The problem with the Witness (which I briefly owned) is that, at least the basic "rounded slide top" model, cannot really be considered a "true" 10 mm Auto handguns as is designed to fire only the light FBI loads (ballistically equivalent to a hot 40 S&W), shooting full power loads will crack the slides...I heard that the older models (squared slide top) and the match model (which still use the old slide design) are ok with full house pills if properly sprung....however there is the issue of the horrendous EAA Customer Service...


The "sad" thing is that for a good "push" of resurgence the 10 mm would just need a blockbuster Hollywood flick where the hero of the day flashes his 10 mm pistols all the time making a point of the caliber and capacity....as Clint Eastwood did with the 44 Mag Mod. 29, Mel Gibson and Bruse Willis did for the Beretta 92, and Don Johnson did for the Bren Ten...

mljdeckard
July 31, 2009, 12:53 AM
I'm looking at getting one because I always open carry my 1911 in the woods, and I want something that would be better suited to bears or large game than a .45 A few times now I've spooked does that I could have shot with my pistol, and when I jump a buck like that I want to really hit it hard.

I DROOL over the STI Perfect Ten, but I would settle for a Fusion long-slide kit gun. The longer barrel would give a little more push.

VegasOPM
July 31, 2009, 12:58 AM
I like 10mm, but the cartridge has definitely had a checkered past. .40 has stolen most of its fire and I'm afraid that it will remain a niche round.

jeff-10
July 31, 2009, 01:35 AM
Lots of theories on why it maintains a certain level of popularity or even mystique, Miami Vice, Jeff Cooper, grandaddy of the 40S&W, FBI round, etc.

I believe its because it is the only "magnum" type auto loader round that has ever had any kind of success as a service pistol load. Even though it was very limited it served the FBI and numerous police agecies and may still serve some.

I personally own a 1076 and my user name pays homage to it and I have a on again/off again fascination for it. Still I am not sure its my favorite and it is defintely not my goto round.

Brian Williams
July 31, 2009, 08:46 AM
Thread necromancy about a 10mm craze that did not quite happen, Start a new one if you really need to.

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