I hate to say it ...but some gun owners freak me out a little bit


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sonny
December 30, 2002, 08:55 PM
Now and then we get a "new guy" at the club that thinks he or she knows a little more than they really do about firearms and "combat"
More often than not they are young,usually in their twenties and they know the "lingo".....they talk about the S Hitting T F a little bit too often and are very concerned about having the hardware to take a man out at 1500 yds.They buy whatever is the hottest new NAVY SEAL gun and try to inform every one that WW 99 is going to go down sooner than we think. It amazes how they memorize and slip into conversation every common and not so common firearm term and tactical teqnique ever invented.
I sometimes enjoy thier enthusiasm and will listen to their stories of impending doom but when I try to calm them down and suggest that they relax and enjoy life and shooting as a sport ,it seems to disturb them a little?I get a look like (I wouldn't want to be next to you in the trenches)
I guess anything is possible but even if the S did HTF, some of the scenerios that these guys dream up are mind bogling!
Too boot, these guys have never seen combat ,have no shooting routines and can't shoot to save their lives...some are really bad!
When I look at the faces of some of the old Vets when they listen to these kids it is truly priceless.I could only imagine what they are thinking!
On the bright side ...I have over the years seen some of these guys calm down and come back to reality when they get real jobs and have familys

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MountainPeak
December 30, 2002, 09:03 PM
Prophets historically do tend to "freak" some people. Don't let it get you down.:D

Don Gwinn
December 30, 2002, 09:04 PM
WW 99? That's a new one for me. Best thing you can do is just be nice to these guys and be gentle about correcting their problems. Most of them will come around.

spacemanspiff
December 30, 2002, 09:10 PM
hey now sonny! i resemble that post. :D


well, i used to anyways. its all about association. if you socialize with those who are mature and responsible and level headed, likely you will emulate those good qualities.
but if you 'hang' with the boys who lack such, you wind up copying the wrong examples.

HSMITH
December 30, 2002, 09:13 PM
Couple of the tin foil hat crew at the range I shoot at once in a while too. Fellas make me a bit nervous.

Mike Irwin
December 30, 2002, 09:17 PM
Just tune them out.

I do.

sonny
December 30, 2002, 09:25 PM
Don Gwinn.....I agree with you ....I don't think that they're bad kids but it is sad that they live in such fear.
I usually suggest that they get a routine going so they can gauge their progress.....that usualy humbles them for a while.
When I ask them why they don't join the military so they can "preserve freedom" ....the "anti social monster" that lives inside them usually exposes it's ugly face :)

Schuey2002
December 30, 2002, 09:31 PM
This is why I shoot outdoors...

There is no one around to bother you. ;)

sonny
December 30, 2002, 09:34 PM
What ....may I ask ...is a tin foil hat?

Mike Irwin
December 30, 2002, 09:43 PM
I need to ammend my answer a little...

I ignore them until one of them points a gun at me.

Then I pay a LOT of attention to them.

Sometimes I get the "I'm a SEEL NINJA TURTLE ASSASSIN 007 UNDERCOVER AGENT!"

I actually once threatened to shoot a kid who kept pointing his handgun at me at an indoor range.

Luckily the owner overheard this and removed the kid.

Pendragon
December 30, 2002, 09:47 PM
A lot of it is just immaturity.

Young men often feel overwhelmed making the transition from teen/kid to "man" and they often feel the need to overcompensate by displaying excessive competence or by posturing.

When I was about 20, I started reading a lot of the literature about the "New World Order" and all that crap - how the UN was going to put us all in camps and such.

Between that and watching too much COPS and AMW, I was convinced that not only did I need to be armed all the time, but I probably needed a sniper rifle and a few AWs and all sorts of ninja gear - so I could be the last man standing or so I would not run out of ammo or so I could do cool ninja tricks and - whatever.

Anyway, that lasted for maybe a year and then I realized that some people are kooks and some people are paranoid and I was not going to listen to them.

I lost my fascination with wonder nines and "tactical" stuff and just mellowed out a lot over the next year or two.

Also, probably due to our movie culture, a lot of youngsters buy into the "gun as a talisman" thinking - only it is usually "super cool gun as a super cool talisman". When I was younger, everyone wanted pistols that held 16-18 rounds. A handgun that held 8 or (God forbid it!) 5 or 6 rounds was just inconcieveable - except as a back up and then you probably want two.

As you get older, you realize (some of us do) that Cooper is right: "Man fights with his mind".

When I finally do get my CCW, I will probably just carry a J frame and 10 extra rounds. But I think I will feel better prepared than I was when I was young and wanted to carry my BHP and (3) 15 round mags (just in case I need them).

Sory for the windy reply...

sm
December 30, 2002, 09:56 PM
I'm like Mike Irwin,

I /we other members tend to ignore, usually after they embarass themselves, they come around. If they don't we boot them out.

Did have to tackle a guy once and disarm him, never point a gun and say threatning stuff to another person--I Don't care If breech is open...I'd do it again.

cuchulainn
December 30, 2002, 10:00 PM
Nothing to apologize for sonny. Some gun owners freak me out too in both their words and actions.

As you note, they're usually young. They're fantasizing without realizing the consequences of the fruition of the fantasies. They want the S to HTF so they can prove themselves in a way simlar to some young men who want America to go to war. There's a big difference in being prepared for SHTF or war and hoping it happens, but that difference hasn't dawned on them.

tin foil hat = Some people believe that the government is beaming mind-control wave into their brains and that wearing covering their heads with tin foil blocks the waves. Obviously, they've got some, um, "issues." Do a web search for "tin foil" and "mind control" and you'll find some "interesting" reading.

Personally, I've never understood how covering only the top of your head works. Can't the waves penetrate your face? ;)

Mike Irwin
December 30, 2002, 10:01 PM
"Anyway, that lasted for maybe a year and then I realized that some people are kooks and some people are paranoid and I was not going to listen to them."

OH MY GOD, THE FEDS HAVE GOTTEN TO PENDRAGON, MAN! THEY'VE TURNED HIM! HE'S GONNA HUNT US DOWN AND KILL US FROM WHAT HE KNOWS OF US HERE! OH GOD!!!!

:D

Gordon
December 30, 2002, 10:05 PM
Once and for all: a "tin foil hat" is in reference to weird devices/thinking that UFO people used to exibit like:" this tin foil hat tunes my brain waves to receive secret govt signals that only I can hear about their conspiracy with extra terrestorials" ect ect .....So it is brandished about branding any paranoid delusional thinking, right or wrong!:cool:

EnfieldIII
December 30, 2002, 10:14 PM
I always thought the tin foil hat was a style thing:confused: guess I'll put mine back in the closet!:D

Ed Brunner
December 30, 2002, 10:14 PM
You are not alone. I refuse to share space with anyone who knows nothing about gun safety and has one.
Part of our job as experienced shooters is to try to improve the ranks. Gun safety is really simple. The problem is that a lot of new shooters are reluctant to acknowlege their ignorance or don't realize how little they know. We can help and it makes it a lot safer for all of us.
My daddy used to say "It's your bullet when you fire it and it's yours when it stops. Be responsible."
If they want to be responsible, you can help. If not, stay away from them.

Croyance
December 30, 2002, 10:17 PM
Well, young people can change. Let's remember what we (and our friends) we're like when we were young. Some of us like an occasional drink, but don't like bars because of all the twenty-something testosterone cases. Young people have trouble figuring out where they fit in and how to prove themselves. To take the bar example, that is why so many young men drink to excess every weekend. The better ones learn by example from those around them.
I thought you were talking about other gun owners. The ones who know nothing about gun saftey but won't listen to others (who just don't want to get shot).:banghead:

G-Raptor
December 30, 2002, 10:28 PM
It's natural for folks to get excited when the get involved in a new thing. Jump in with both feet, as they say.

They usually settle down with a little experience or figure out they're in the wrong game.

Butch
December 30, 2002, 10:41 PM
http://zapatopi.net/afdb/afdbsmiley.gif

sonny, this is a tinfoil hat. It is used to keep out the brainwashing waves from space or any other government agency.
Just keep it on & you'll be safe but be sure to wear it shinny side out so the pimploba alians cant see you either.

http://www.emotipad.com/emoticons/Beam%20Up.gif

sonny
December 30, 2002, 10:51 PM
I had a long unsucesfull talk with one kid who was in the process of saving money for a high end "sniper rifle".
When I asked him what he does for a living he told me he was part time handy man.
When I asked him where he lived he said home with mom and dad untill he could save enough to get an apt for him ,his girlfriend and his baby girl.
I suggested that he should put off the "sniper rifle" and scope for a while and save the money for an apt. and he said "lot's a good that would be if I had no way of defending it.....I said what about you're shotgun?....he said........well yeah......at close quarters but what about long distances? ...I said ....suit youself pal:banghead:

.....................................Sick World ................................................

Flatfender
December 30, 2002, 11:17 PM
Don't forget to wear your "Tin Foil" hat with the shiny side out. Er.. or was that shiny side in. I forget. It works better one of those ways.
:D

Okay now - get your hats on and sing...

Who controls the British crown?
Who keeps the metric system down?
We do! We do!
Who keeps Atlantis off the maps?
Who keeps the Martians under wraps?
We do! We do!
Who holds back the electric car?
Who makes Steve Guttenberg a star?
We do! We do!
Who robs the cave fish of their site?
Who rigs every Oscar night?
We do! We do!

Wakal
December 30, 2002, 11:19 PM
My favorite "kid" story, at least this year, was the early 20's manchild who rolled up to my range and proceeded to dress up in a vintage US chemsuit with a surplus Israeli gas mask. He strapped his tactical thigh holster to one leg, and his tactical mag pouch to the other leg, then spent the next hour in a deep crouch, missing targets 5 yards in front of him.

The "check left, check right" while at low ready were OK, but the shoulder rolls were a bit excessive.

Would have been impressive if the targets had more holes in them when he left than when he arrived.

Sigh.



Alex

Wade
December 30, 2002, 11:26 PM
Last time I was at the range, I had a guy ask me how I liked my Glock 19. Pretty well, I answer. He tells me that he LOVES Glocks, and to prove it shows me the name "GLOCK" tatoo'd on his forearm! :eek: :eek:

Kinda freaky!

rbrowning
December 30, 2002, 11:41 PM
I was at an uncontrolled range making sure that my 12 ga was ready for deer season. Three "kids" set up a piece of plywood at 25 yards. On the plywood was painted three outlines representing the bad guys. The kids got out their AK, inserted the taped together mags and cut loose. After flipping the mag and emptying two banana clips there was one non-life threatening hole in one target. I tried real hard not to laugh too loud but the kid saw the twinkle in my eye and asked if I thought that I could hit them. I said I would try. 10 seconds later there were three cyclops targets and three kids packing their gun to go home. Maybe they someday learned that three shots that hit are better than 60 that don't. The three deliberately aimed shots were faster, cost less and got the job done at the cost of not looking so macho.

Lexter
December 30, 2002, 11:57 PM
Kinda neat how time and reality mellows most of us...I did say MOST of us!

You gotta smile!


Lexter

Monkeyleg
December 31, 2002, 12:02 AM
Purely anecdotal, from my experience working gun shows for pro-2nd candidates for over eight years: the guys who swear "from my cold dead hands" or "I'll bury them before I'll surrender."

These guys are all talk and no action. They'll fill their pants and turn them in and turn in any neighbors in a nanosecond. It's not that hard to talk tough. Hell, it's not even that hard to go vote, but these neantherthals can't even bring themselves to do that!

These guys are lazy, they're uncommitted and they don't care about anything but themselves.

Find me a guy who's willing to put in a full day every week working for a pro-2nd candidate. Chances are that he's willing to go the wall to defend his rights.

cratz2
December 31, 2002, 12:14 AM
A lot of gun owners scare me. Being in the gun shop and hearing some things just slay me. And the gross in accuracies are usually quite entertaining also.

And as noted by someone else, I have a friend that I used to shoot with. He had a Charter Arms 44 Spc that he could not keep on target at 7 yards! I thought it might be the gun but I could keep 5 rounds in the black shooting just about as fast as I could.

piccolo
December 31, 2002, 12:35 AM
Originally posted by rbrowning


Maybe they someday learned that three shots that hit are better than 60 that don't. The three deliberately aimed shots were faster, cost less and got the job done at the cost of not looking so macho.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, but you didn't look COOL.[:D]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One time I took a .45 from some guy in his mid 40s that had been pointing it all around. I shot a gallon jug full of water with it with the resulting and expected mess.

I unloaded the piece and got somewhat in his face: "You want to do that to ME??!! I take things liike that VERY PERSONAL. The human body is about 90% water. "


I gave him 2 choices, either smarten up or just leave.

He had been publicly humiliated, and left.

About a year later, I saw him again. We exchanged looks, neither of us said anything, but I kept an eye on him for a while. He had learned, and was now a safe shooter.

I gave him a coke, and he actually thanked me for the lesson.

Mike Irwin
December 31, 2002, 02:19 AM
Hey Fender,

You got the Simpsons Simphonic CD for Christmas, didn't you? :D

Nightcrawler
December 31, 2002, 02:28 AM
I was kind of like that a couple few years back. 18 years old, fresh out of Army basic training, thought that any day the UN convoy would come rolling down the block.

I've, eh-heh, calmed down over the last couple years. Became interested in political science and am growing to understand "politcal reality", as well as history and so forth. Amazing what two or three years can do to a person.

PATH
December 31, 2002, 03:06 AM
Gee whiz. Does this mean I can now get rid of my Cracker Jacks decoder ring. I was sure either the UN or the Martians were coming!;) :D

dave
December 31, 2002, 03:42 AM
Originally posted by cuchulainn
As you note, they're usually young. They're fantasizing without realizing the consequences of the fruition of the fantasies. They want the S to HTF so they can prove themselves in a way simlar to some young men who want America to go to war. There's a big difference in being prepared for SHTF or war and hoping it happens, but that difference hasn't dawned on them.






I think you've hit the nail on the head there. I'm not to concerned or worried about those folks who prepair for TEOTWAWKI, just as long as they don't harm anyone (me!) else. They may be right and they may be wrong. But as long as they harm no one it's no big deal.

But those folks that WANT things to go butt over elbows, for whatever reason (and I believe there are more out there than we think), they worry me. They are the ones who, when asked what sort of plans they are making, say something like, "Plans? Well, my PLAN is to use my guns to take whatever I need, from anyone who has what I want. Haven't you heard? He who has the guns makes the rules!". Sometimes I will try to talk a bit of sense into them and if that doesn't work, I suggest giving them plenty of room.

After a few years of growing up, some of them change and some don't. I suspect we would all be suprised at how many folks there are like that out there. But then again, it can be fun to sit on the sofa, eating popcorn, and watching them on CNN as they take on half the world. :D

Vladimir Berkov
December 31, 2002, 04:44 AM
Lol. I think those taped magazines would be the clue.

Even though the AK could deal with the dirt getting in the mag, and AK mag feed lips aren't made out of tin foil like AR mags, they DO have their limits!

GhostShooter
December 31, 2002, 06:51 AM
http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/offtopic1.gif

Wow am I the only person on here who normally is alone at the range?

http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/2M16.gif

JPM70535
December 31, 2002, 08:42 AM
The enthusiasm of the young knows no bounds, and sometimes that's a good thing. Those of us who have mellowed over the years would do well to remember how we felt at their age.


All good things come to he who waits..and waits..and waits?

Bog
December 31, 2002, 09:03 AM
I can see how guns, being very cool all-senses enjoyment devices, can be addictive. I can also see how the self-defence aspects of weapon ownership can slip into the self-proving aspects of testosterone-soaked manchild fantasy. To whit, young $FILLY over there would see what a man I am if only the $OPFOR came over the hill and I could shoot every last man-jack of them. Then she'd love me. Etc.

I think Sonny's post about the handyman summed it up for me. Some people seem to put their gun collection first - and the rest of their lives a very distant second. To me, the ownership and competent usage of a firearm, at the strictly personal level, is about safeguarding what one makes of one's life.

To have a trade, at which I excell to the extent of my innate abilities, is why I'm wandering around metabolising in the first place. To use my mind, and my hands, to create new things, new wealth, and new opportunities is why I get out of bed in the morning. That is the primary goal of my life - do well, make money, have fun, and be as much of a well-rounded human being as I can be.

In time, I will bedeck myself with sufficient self-determination devices to ensure that nobody else can interfere with my process of self-exploration and self-enjoyment. After all, my work harms nobody, brings some people pleasure, and not a single one of the pennies I've made has been at someone else's unwilling expense. However, that's what those weapons will be - a means to safeguard what I've made already. I have no desire to wage war. I do not wish my fellow sacks of mostly-water ill. Frankly, the firearms which I will acquire will simply be there to prevent misguided people from doing me, or those I love, harm.

There's a very pertinent Tolkein quote, which our kind host on this forum has in pride of place on another site of his:

I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. (J.R.R.Tolkien, The Two Towers)

I think the people that Sonny's referring to could do with having that simple message explained to them.

Selah.

Waitone
December 31, 2002, 10:33 AM
I "try" to ignore 'em. But I do keep one eye on then and one eye on my target.

I figure if they talk stoopid chances are good they'll do stoopid hence the need to split eye usage.

coati
December 31, 2002, 02:54 PM
I've had a couple of instructors who were a little like that. Good instructors, wise advice, but just a little too tightly wound when it came to, say, the intricacies of the FBI Matix and Platt shootout in Miami or the physics of hydrostatic pressure.

There used to be a poster on TFL, who, before his threads were locked, would hammer out a hyper punctuation-free rant on topics like these.

Soap
December 31, 2002, 03:19 PM
High Roaders Ian, Chris Rhines, and myself are all young fellas. Do we strike you as mall ninjas? All the mall ninja talk for myself died before I even graduated high school.

Detachment Charlie
December 31, 2002, 03:30 PM
Ever notice that the guys who are so anxious to be in a firefight have never been in one. Just watch the eys of the other guys who are listening. The eyes are either "rolling" :rolleyes: or there is that sad, 1,000-yard stare of experience.:(

2nd Amendment
December 31, 2002, 03:51 PM
I do get a little tired of being told to "calm down". I'm not at all excited when any discussion of World Government and the UN come up. OTOH I know perfectly well it is coming. The course of government evolution demands it. We will have world government(a "New World order" if you like that phrase) and it will come into place by some means like the UN, if not the UN itself as it exists today. We will have a cashless society composed of the disarmed masses taxed to the max to fund the bureaucracy. Those are absolute facts.

When? Who knows. How? I have ideas but, again, who knows. Will the Blue Helmets show up at your door to take your guns...probably not. They'll erode it away generation by generation, same as they slowly elevate your tax rate and incrementally control your "private" property. It'll all be gone without anyone noticing but a small few who are always labeled Nuts. Of course there all sorts of crises, real and manufactured, that could speed it along and provoke open confrontation but, again, who knows.

Talking about it incessantly and running around in full tactical gear is over the top. But realizing it is coming doesn't mean one needs to calm down. I'm actually kind of bored with the idea at this point. I probably won't live long enough to see it and nobody will probably put forth a real effort to stop it so why worry. But don't dismiss it. You're denying the historical expansion of governments and the basic human desire for control of others.

-B-a-M-
December 31, 2002, 04:22 PM
I know what allof you are talking about perfectly. Ironically though im 16 and have had more of this kind of expirience with people older than me. Except when i try to calm them down i get the death stare from them. I shoot on a 4-H Rifle Team and am starting pistol. I go to CMP clinics when ever i can because theyre fun and sometimes i go to Camp Perry for matches. Anyway i was down at my local range and was sighting in my M-1 Garand (i love that gun so much) in 30-06 and this n00b showed up with a decked out AR. He had rail systems on it and a scope and lasers and flashlights and a flip down bi-pod. He also had this Tac Vest with mags all over it. He came right up to me and told me to move he wanted my spot (the range was full that day) I turned to him and said "Good day to you too. Nice AR how long have you had it?" He said he had just got it yesterday and then proceded to say it was better than my hunk of wood. :D I told him he could have my spot only if he could shoot 1 shot better than me at 100 yards. He agreed. We waited for the time to go down range and set up a new target. I got down into the prone positition lined up the sites took a breath checked my natural line of sight it was perfect. I squeezed off a shot then checked in thru my tri-pod scope. Right next to the X. I got up and let him check it he saw it and then he layed down and flip down his bi-pod (with some difficulty too might i add they kept wanting to flip back up :D ) he then made the comment of "im going to pin wheel that X" then he squeezed the trigger and sent of a shot. I checked the scope and didnt see anything at all. Then when we got permisson to go down and check i found his shot in the right 2x4 holding up the target board. I turned and asked him if he sighted it in he said he thought it was automatically sighted in when you mounted the scope on. :neener: I just gave a slight laugh and told him he could have my spot cuz he needed the time and my sights are fine.

sonny
December 31, 2002, 04:26 PM
Good move B-a-M-

RobW
December 31, 2002, 04:42 PM
You're denying the historical expansion of governments and the basic human desire for control of others.

As you said: the basic human desire for control of others PREVENTS a "world government". Even the small counry of Jugoslavia was not able to be united (supressed) under a mutual government. What about the former USSR?

The whole thing is that the HAVENOTS want to get what the HAVES have, and the HAVES won't let go what they have.

That's the reason for ALL wars and the imposibility of a "world order".

All the historical "expansion" of governments lead to their suffocation. Examples abound.

2nd Amendment
December 31, 2002, 04:48 PM
The historical march of government is to larger, more centralized and less accountable forms. What the "have-nots" want is immaterial. What matters is how much force the "Haves" can bring to bear to further their goals. That continued march towards more centralized power (force) is what guarantees world governance. Technology is what will enable it.

100 years ago nobody could have envisioned a government so large, wasteful and redundant as ours with the power to directly influence your life via so many means. Anyone who could have would have been scoffed at. Now we not only live with it everyday but are watching it continue to expand.

Perhaps expansion may lead to suffocation, though really it's only one small contributing factor. That's really not the point, though. So what if a Global Government expires under its' own dead weight after a couple hundred years? I don't remember saying it's the end of governmental evolution and whether it is or not, the results are still as abysmal for those who live under it and especially for those who realize what's been lost.

Pendragon
December 31, 2002, 05:38 PM
The ominous one world scenario may come to be.

But it will not be over night, and it will not be next year.

If people would pull their head our and get involved in the political fight of today, the SHTF :rolleyes: scenario of tomorrow will not happen. But then - those guys would not get to show us all how heroic they really are :banghead:

...am growing to understand "politcal reality"...

That is really what cinched it for me. Trying to work out the logistics of it all.

Prosperity and productivity will take a huge nose dive if the clamps are suddenly placed on the USA and other productive countries. The "political realities" of trying to do door to door confiscations and concentration camps of patriots/christians/true believers/tinfoil owners/etc is just silly - at least in the forseeable future.

Double Naught Spy
December 31, 2002, 06:13 PM
I had a class where the guy next to me remarked on several occasions how he was "mad" a the target, getting serious about shooting, focussed on shooting the bad guy, that this was serious business, and other sorts of weirdness. Not surprisingly, he was the one fellow who had a ND during dry fire practice. He was sporting a 6 week old Thunder Ranch Special and brought along 25 Baer mags in a cloth roll-up holder. Very strange man.

Joe Demko
January 1, 2003, 02:18 AM
See, the main thing is to stop consuming the nanobots They are putting in the potable water supply. Said nanobots alter the cellular architecture of the brain. The nanobots receive their instructions and energy from microwave radiation, especially cell phones. Their overall goals are murky, but somehow involve spikey-haired mutants, plague zombies, and pancakes. Bottled water, you say? Ha! The nanobots are especially concentrated in bottled water! See how many tools walk about with cell phone and bottled water! Don't be a tool! Guns are only part of the answer. The key lies in the proper use of the all-important cider vinegar in conjunction with precisely directed firepower. I know. I've seen Them in Their lair! I've fought them through seven times seven incarnations and seven times that decarnations and seven times that excarnations and I don't know how much longer I can hold Them off alone! Stockpile ammo, stockpile cider vinegar and AVOID PANCAKES!

Don Gwinn
January 1, 2003, 02:18 AM
100 years ago nobody could have envisioned a government so large, wasteful and redundant as ours with the power to directly influence your life via so many means.
Sure they could. Most of the monarchies were huge, bloated, and wasteful, and they interfered in every facet of life besides. Why do you think Marie Antoinette lost her head? Too efficient? Too little power vested in the monarchies?
How about the Czar's family? Were their secret police just not intrusive enough, or were they just so afraid of wasting public money?

Vladimir Berkov
January 1, 2003, 04:35 AM
Most oppresive government of the past used social controls primarily, instead of centralized government control over minute details.

The US government has more power over the individual citizen than the Ancien Regime ever had.

It was only during the 20th century, that technological and political changes allowed this to happen.

dave
January 1, 2003, 04:57 AM
Everyone has an opinion. Everyone has his his/her own beliefs. Some are right and some are wong.

It has been my experience that folks fall into two main groups. Those willing to admit they may be wrong and those that would rather die than admit their views of the world could be wrong.

I believe I fall into the first group. I'll freely admit that I don't know everything, that I don't have all the facts that would allow me to say to anyone else, "That's the way it is, because I KNOW IT IS!". Seems to be enough of them in the world, and on this board, no need to add me. I also feel that most folks belong to the first group. Enough to keep the world a semi-sane place anyway.

I'm not sure how to feel about the second group. I mean, it's fine that some feel that strongly about their opinions. It's just that they, IMO, always seem to have very short fuzes. If their point of view is questioned they are very quick to become angry or unreasonable. They think everyone who disagrees with them to be blind, stupid, or asleep. They tend to think they, and mostly they alone, have "figured everything out". They don't understand how the rest of us get through the day. Some truely and honestly feel the pressure of spreading the "truth" and "facts" to the rest of us. When we roll our eyes at them, they get sooo angry because we are unable to "see what's REALLY happening in the world".

In my experience, some of the people in that second group are the one's most likely to "snap". They get tired of having to wait for their view of "what's really happening" to occur. They get angry and tired of having others who "just don't get it" look at them and smile when they give their opinions/facts. They simply will not believe, in any way, that they might be wrong. They have based their entire live on believing in, and trying to warn others of, one sort of boogy man or another. They see themselves as the real "free thinkers" and the rest of us as "close minded".

All because we don't share their view of "what's really happening". What they believe HAS always happened, it MUST happen, it WILL happen by God. And, of course, they always pity those of us who are "asleep". As I stated earlier, I don't know if they believe these things because, if truth be known, they want them to happen or if they really think they have some sort of special insight the rest of us don't. A little of both I think. I will not even go into what they must think their roll in their "post TEOTWAWKI" will be. I've heard some pretty interesting views from a few. Some views ran the course, ie; "hunker down and kill anyone who comes close", "take charge and put things back in order", "look up those who laughed at me, just to see their faces", "With all the guns, ammo, and food I've stored, I'll be the top dog", and my personal fav, "I'll be King of my area and I'll make things the way I think they should have been, especially with the girls".

And they wonder why I roll my eyes. Why I don't come to my senses. Why I don't believe that they just KNOW what's going to happen. These folks have no room, or need, for any opinion other than their own.

But I could be wrong.


Course that King thing sounds kind of nice.

Marshall
January 1, 2003, 05:07 AM
I think trying to teach these kids something instead of ignoring or threatening is the thing to do. I have seen some that take to it like ducks to water. Spouting all the crap off is usually just a pretense for wanting to fit in. Take one under your wing an help him, he might turn out to be a good guy and do the same for someone else someday. ;)


Marshall

rick458
January 1, 2003, 06:12 AM
Lets say that tomorrow the entire government was overthrown
half of the world would GRIND TO A HALT no roadwork , no PD,no FD, no FDA, no DOD, no nothing I would hazard a guess that it would take around 600,000 people to maintain a basic infrastructure in this country that aint gonna be found hangin' out on the street corner.
I was in Zimbabwe back in 1997 the blacks won the war and lost the nation because of NO INFRASTRUCTURE to replace what was booted out and I hear it has truly gotten tragic.
to think that a revolution can come equiped with men with the vision (and mental ability to carry such vision out) as our Founding Fathers is to me beyond chance.
we would do well to place people in Congress, and the Senate who are truly freedom loving men and change it from the inside out
But of course this is strictly my opinion:p

jmbg29
January 1, 2003, 06:41 AM
See, the main thing is to stop consuming the nanobots They are putting in the potable water supply. Said nanobots alter the cellular architecture of the brain. The nanobots receive their instructions and energy from microwave radiation, especially cell phones. Their overall goals are murky, but somehow involve spikey-haired mutants, plague zombies, and pancakes. Bottled water, you say? Ha! The nanobots are especially concentrated in bottled water! (emphasis added) See how many tools walk about with cell phone and bottled water! Don't be a tool! Guns are only part of the answer. The key lies in the proper use of the all-important cider vinegar in conjunction with precisely directed firepower. I know. I've seen Them in Their lair! I've fought them through seven times seven incarnations and seven times that decarnations and seven times that excarnations and I don't know how much longer I can hold Them off alone! Stockpile ammo, stockpile cider vinegar and AVOID PANCAKES!To make matters worse, the nanobots are laughing at us! Evian is naive spelled backwards!!!

Beware the monkey demon!
Richard Farina's "Been Down So Long, It Looks Like Up To Me"

:what: :neener:

Guyon
January 1, 2003, 08:34 AM
Take them hunting. I have never been in a firefight, but I do know what effects a firearm can have on a living creature. This realization alone can sober you up a bit when it comes to safe gun handling. Perhaps it can stop some of the gun waving you see at the range.

2nd Amendment
January 1, 2003, 12:47 PM
Really Don? Which Monarchy ever ruled a continuous land area this large with 280 million people on it, employed the number of people this one currently employs, utilized the amount of money this one currently sucks up, regulated so many different things and taxed at such a high rate?

I could go on but the fact is none. Not even in the same ballpark. And we can no more see how bloated things will be in the future than any of those Monarchists you mention could imagine how piddling and powerless were their governments compared to what we take for granted today.

Prodigalshooter
January 1, 2003, 12:55 PM
I was at the range a few weeks ago, sighting in a new revolver. A young man a few stalls away was using more ammo in 10 minutes then I do in a month! Rapid fire 9mm as fast as he could change magazines, then 12 guage slugs, also as fast as he could.
Mind you, this is all at the 7 yard target:rolleyes:
The target pieces were all over the floor, he had to go get a new cardboard backer! Then he did it again. I know we should practice at short defensive ranges, but this seemed a bit excessive. As he was packing up his gear to leave, I noticed him rubbing his shoulder;)
The thing is, another shooter had been trying to train his wife/GF to shoot, obviously for the first time, but the young fellow with the "Rambo" mentality was right next to them. Hard to concentrate when someone runs thru 20 12 guage slugs in two minutes!
Just inconsiderate, IMHO.

Robby from Long Island
January 1, 2003, 02:02 PM
When I was a youngster, they had the draft. You had a few choices when you graduated high school. Either you went to College, got a job, enlisted in the service or got drafted.

Most of my buddies either went to college or enlisted in the military. Those who were in the service in those days got to grow up a lot faster than those who weren't.

Unfortunately, we don't have the draft anymore and a lot of todays young people get knowledge of weapons from MTV, movies and video games. Suddenly they're old enough to buy a gun and all they know is what I just mentioned.

They want to impress their elders but don't have any real world experience to fall back on.

But when we think back to our youth, I'm sure we made fools of ourselves many times too. I remember having a brand new '65 Tri-Powered, 4 speed GTO that I raced on the street continuously. At the time it didn't sink in that 99% of the other drivers on the road didn't admire my (perceived) skill behind the wheel, but thought I was an irresponsible moron. Times haven't really changed that much, have they?

Safe shooting.

Bog
January 1, 2003, 06:14 PM
I have to say that I've gotten used to the simple notion that the only weapon I have weighs about six pounds and lives between my ears.

You can by a disposable camera from a vending machine, charge it's flash, tear the thing apart and use the capacitor that drives the flash to drop someone on their butt by touching 'em with both prongs.

A disposable camera is the most pathetically non-useful self-defence item in the word. You can't beat someone over the head with it, for gh0d's sake! It falls apart!

But a bit of wit, a little knowledge, and you can turn anything to your advantage, even if it ends up a bit MacGuyver.

Guns don't kill people. The determination and preparedness to enforce your will on a situation kills people - when it's done right. There are any number of wrong ways to kill someone.:fire:

Feh..... Happy New Year, everyone.

rick458
January 1, 2003, 07:41 PM
I truly hate being in a Gunstore when a newbie or a stupid oldbie
starts muzzle f*&^%ing evreything and everybody in the store with whatever he is holding, they SHOULD be empty but mistakes have happened:what:

vulcan
January 1, 2003, 08:31 PM
I use to have a gun owning neighbor thats scary. I thought he goes to a lot of western or civil war reenactments, Turns out he dresses like that on a normal basis:uhoh: . Its one thing to pretend to be fighting the civil war, its another when you think its still going on.:D .

Carbon_15
January 1, 2003, 08:41 PM
its fun to mock the kooks :p

http://www.mallninja.com/agents.htm

Mike Irwin
January 1, 2003, 09:02 PM
"Really Don? Which Monarchy ever ruled a continuous land area this large with 280 million people on it, employed the number of people this one currently employs, utilized the amount of money this one currently sucks up, regulated so many different things and taxed at such a high rate?"

Czarist, and later Soviet, Russia.

In 1914 Russia's population was roughly 175 million. It got a lot bigger under the Soviets.

The Russian Empire was about 8.5 million square miles, or over double the United State's current size of 3.6 million square miles.

The Czarist, and later Soviet, bureaucracy was, even by American standards, immense.

Hard to say about the utilization of money, as you'd have to do some high-level financial wrangling to figure that out, but I'd say that the United States economy has always generated a lot more money than the Czarist-Soviet economy, but economic control and planning, especially under the Soviets, was a lot more stringent.

The key would be figuring out how much of the economy, as a percentage of total wealth, the governments at that time controlled, and whether or not it would be higher than today in the United States. Given what I know about Czarist and Soviet economic patterns, though, I have no doubt that the Russians win, hands down.

Taxation in Czarist and Soviet Russia? You think WE have high taxes?

Next, we can move on to China, and they're a good current example...

Roughly 3.7 million square miles, 1.2 billion people, and a typical Marxist/Soviet economic structure with as of yet small, but quickly growing, capitalist surges. The Chinese also have a massive bureaucratic infrastructure.

Once again, you'd have to take the wealth of the entire nation and balance it against the economic controls to see where China would stack up against the United States, but I feel very confident in saying that the Chinese both tax, and control the money, to a much higher degree than the United States.

2nd Amendment
January 1, 2003, 09:57 PM
Ummm, Mike, the USSR is essentially a modern nation and government. Concurrent with the existence of the US. Technically it's a much newer government, and even form of government, than the US. It accomplished its' expansion and control thanks to "modern" technology. It lost its' control when it failed to stay abreast of the technology and lost site of certain economic necessities(among other problems) as well.

Regardless, the USSR is a current example of governmental evolution in size and scope and as such doesn't fit as an example of how large past governments were or what control they exercised. Thx for giving a good example for me, though.

Thx for China, too. Another example of the current progression and control of centralized government. It may, in fact, be one of the best examples of my argument ever. A large nation that has existed for a vast period of time, whose government centralized in the latter half of the 20th century and began to exert a centralized authority and control never before seen.

Evolution. Progression. Centralization.

cuchulainn
January 1, 2003, 10:29 PM
Didn't the ancient Chinese have a huge bureaucracy and rules/laws covering all aspects of life?

sebago
January 1, 2003, 10:40 PM
As others have said it is just the result of immaturity but the sad (and frustrating) thing is, these are the people the media search for when doing a story on firearm ownership.

Mike Irwin
January 1, 2003, 10:41 PM
2nd Amendment,

Yep, you're right. I should have read the postulation a little more thoroughly.

Chuchulain,

Man you nailed that one RIGHT on the head.

Imperial China under the Han Dynasty, IIRC, largely created the massive bureaucracy that was an extension of the Emperor's desire to control all aspects of Chinese life.

The Ming Dynasty of 1,000 years later finished the fine tuning of the bureaucracy to levels never before or seen since. The enormous bureaucracy was even more necessary because the Mings were invaders (Mongolians) who needed a huge class of overseer bureaucrats to control the lower level Han (or Chinese) bureaucrats. Taxes under the Mings probably were on the level of 95% of a peasant's yearly production.

Even so, China under the Ming Dynasty flourished.

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