IDPA rule changes.


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faustulus
December 31, 2002, 07:41 PM
This usually starts the ball rolling :)
Personally I would love to get rid of the "get shot while I fumble with this mag" reload. And maybe a few stages with a higher round count, not all the time mind you, but occasionally.

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Don45cal
December 31, 2002, 07:49 PM
Try IPSC/USPSA!! They do both!!:D :D :D :D

:ar15: :ar15: :ar15:

motorep
December 31, 2002, 10:18 PM
Well, it didn't take long to start this up again....faustulus- can't you be excommunicated for heresy or something for even suggesting something gamey? (!)

faustulus
January 1, 2003, 12:41 AM
I shoot IPSC also, but the more games the better. IDPA is easier to find here. I like both but each has things I would change. Humm that is a good idea for another thread. :)
can't you be excommunicated for heresy or something for even suggesting something gamey?
probably.:D But I maintain that reloading quickly isn't gamey just good sense.

Correia
January 2, 2003, 03:26 PM
I'm an IDPA shooter. I'm not really into IPSC.

But IDPA does have a couple of rules that I think are silly. Kneeling require you to put one knee on the ground. No squatting? I guess squatting is gamey or something. Personally I think a squat is faster to get into, faster to get out of, almost as stable, and is what I would do in real life anyway.

Tac reloads? Personally I think they are silly and I think that it would be a cold day in hell before I did a tac reload in an actual fight.

IPSC? I shot a USPSA 3 gun yesterday. You guys really need to get yourselves some holsters that will hold the gun in for something more strenuous than walking to the first shoot box. :p

PvtPyle
January 2, 2003, 04:51 PM
I understand playing to the lowest common intelligence, but those of us who carry daily and in the real world would like to be able to carry a loaded and holstered pistol, and a slung rifle (it doesn't have to be loaded). Alot of the stages seem to be made up to even the playing field from the hard core gamers. Not a big fan of that either.

I would just prefer to see it be more realistic in some of the rules. Stages are left to individual design, and I understand that you have to find a happy compromise in all things. Maybe a Military/LEO division would be good with adjusted rules for that class.

Oh, the 10rd pistol mag thing also bugs the crap out of me. be it a 9mm or .45, load it full. YOU chose that gun, suffer with the round capacity limitations (if you have one. Personally 18rds of .45 are enough for me)

Andrew Wyatt
January 2, 2003, 05:25 PM
I suppose a simple anti gamer rule would be to only allow people to use the pistol that's listed on their CCW.



Tac reloads are pretty much only for when you're in a lull in the battle, and as such shouldn't be done under the clock.


If someone made a reliable target that only fell when hit with a hit that would be disabling to a human, the light loaded gamey ammo thing would sort itself out.


I like IDPA much more than I(m)PSC, because IDPA has a point to it.


I'd like to see a "field holster" class, where open carry military type rigs are allowed, as well as a little better system involving equipment classes.

Navy joe
January 2, 2003, 07:26 PM
-Disclaimer- IPSC shooter!

If it has a timer and you keep score, it's a game! I won't touch specific rules, but I think IDPA needs a stronger rule book that is much less open to interpretation. No rule set can last if there is a subjective note in it.

1 classifier? Get real! Everyone wants to brag if they are an IDPA grand wizard or whatever, not so hard if you can practice til it's perfect!

Larry, I use carry suitable holsters in USPSA, it's pretty common in L10 and Production it's kinda required. No leather, but drastic plastic. And if I do IDPA with the same guns and holsters I drop my mags just because. What are they gonna do, penalize me?

CleverNickname
January 2, 2003, 07:32 PM
I suppose a simple anti gamer rule would be to only allow people to use the pistol that's listed on their CCW.

That might work in California, but most other states don't require people list their guns on their license.

Correia
January 2, 2003, 07:48 PM
For me it is a given that they are all games. Usefull practice for your basic shooting skills of course, but they are still games. I'm not going to bash anybody's choice of game. I think that competition is the best practice you can get though outside of spending tons of money and going to shooting schools. (Of course if I had piles of cash laying around I would be going to every shooting school that I could). In the meantime I think that practical pistol shooting really helps your actual skill level.

I've had a few "ultimately tactical" folks tell me that IDPA or IPSC is just a game that will get you killed "on the street". Whatever, beats standing in front of a bench at the range, slowfiring a pretty group at 25 yards.

I'll agree on the classifier. It is no secret what it is, so if you practice those strings enough you will eventually classify pretty high. But it is a pretty decent test of basic shooting skills.

Pyle and I have had this discussion before. It is kind of a conundrum. If you have a division for a certain type of shooter you will have more of that shooter come out, but since you don't have very many of those shooters it isn't worth the administrative effort to make a class just for them, and since you don't have a class they don't come. :)

Also a cold range, while it is a pain for most of use who use guns and carry daily, we do have to cater to weekend plinkers too. Plus it is an IDPA rule because that is the standard rule on most of the ranges that clubs shoot on. I would love to run a hot range, but it ain't going to happen.

PvtPyle
January 2, 2003, 08:46 PM
Word around the camp fire is that the military is moving towards a more combat oriented shooting badge. That means that they will end up ahving those types of matches. Hopefully that will lead to a military oriented shooting club or class that will allow us to practice the way we would fight.

I understand that they are all games, but there are more than a few of us that do this for several reasons. Loving to shoot is just a great fringe benefit. We had a whole team of 19th guys at the last IDPA shoot. I bet if there was a match that was geared towards real world shooting, you would see more of them......(locally anyway)

faustulus
January 3, 2003, 02:48 AM
Pyle I agree with you about the mags. My friend and I were shooting at a club when they were explaining the a rule to my friend and said something along the lines of "in the real world" and my firend countered "in the real world my 15 round mag wouldn't be downloaded to 10."
The guy was cool and corrected himself and said "this is how this game is played."
I agree it is just a game, one I enjoy, just like IPSC.

I like IDPA much more than I(m)PSC, because IDPA has a point to it.

That point is?

John Forsyth
January 3, 2003, 11:43 AM
by PvtPyle
Oh, the 10rd pistol mag thing also bugs the crap out of me. be it a 9mm or .45, load it full. YOU chose that gun, suffer with the round capacity limitations (if you have one. Personally 18rds of .45 are enough for me)

The reason for the 10rd mag limit is to keep it such that anyone can play. The last time I looked 10rd Glock mags were $20 and standard capacity drop free mags were $75 and up. This is one of the reasons IDPA took off so fast, you do not need specific equipment to win.

I would like to see three changes. One, a Professional class above Master. Two, add another equipment class, Government Model. Three, change the times on the classifier to be all the same for all the bottom feeders.

As it is now, if the amateur shooter is good enough to move from Expert to Master, they might as well hang it up. There is no way for amateur shooters to beat guys like Rob Leatham, Scott Warren, or Dave Sevigney (spelling?). They shoot for a living. So give them their own class.

CDP is strictly for single stacks .45's. No wide bodies, no 10mm's, or any other caliber that can make major. Make a Government Model class and let it be for single stack .45's only. With this done, change CDP to true Custom pistols. Ten round mag limit so wide bodies can play with post ban mags. And any caliber that is .400 and above that can make major powerfactor is good to go. You have no idea how upset I was when 10mm was moved to ESP.

I have seen more than one shooter make expert in SSP, then declare ESP so they could stay a sharpshooter. And its legal to do it. Make expert in SSP with a qualifier of 120 or less. It takes a time of around 108 to do it in ESP. That's BS.

I think the rule book should be rewritten to remove the contradictions and generally put in a better format. But for the most part, I agree with the rules as written. Remember they have to be valid for 50 states as well as other countries.

Hey, just my $0.02.

Chris Rhines
January 3, 2003, 02:47 PM
Agreed with the tac load rule, that one needs to be written out. Ditto the kneeling rule. I shoot squatting frequently, and find that it makes more sense than putting a knee down.

There are no regular USPSA clubs near me, so I haven't had the opportunity to shoot it yet. But I'm sure that if I did, I'd have problems with some of their rules as well. I always did have this problem with rules... :D

- Chris

PUMC_TomG
January 3, 2003, 02:56 PM
I would also agree that the silly "tactical" reload rule should be written out. I'm sorry... but if I ever do that in a gunfight it will be in a lull of fire while behind cover... with only one shot left in the mag... and then only....

Also... yeah, squatting is a much more tactically sound way to shoot from a low position... easier to get the heck outta dodge from a kneel than a knee. You are also better able to pivot your body from a squat than a knee.

And Chris... yeah... I heard about you and rules. :neener:
I remember you griping about the mag. capacity all the time at Wildcat.

I would like to say that I agree with the 10 rd. limit... guys with the high cap wonder nines, etc.. def. have an "advantage" in the games... but by practicing with having less ammo than you would in a situation in my mind makes it more likely that you will use said ammo carefully.

PvtPyle
January 3, 2003, 03:36 PM
Well, when you are issued an M9, and that what you use in competitions as well, or if you have a highcap .45, and you carry that on a daily basis, it makes sense to compete like you live. I have a single stack .45 and use it, and carry it too sometimes, but in most cases it is a highcap.

I can see the reasoning in behind getting the gamers to an even playing field, but alot of us bring our daily carry pieces out and the whole "fight like you train" thing goes right out the window.

Correia
January 3, 2003, 03:53 PM
Look at it as a chance to practice your magazine changes. :)

I understand what you are saying, but if you look at the history behind IDPA you can see why they have the limited capacity rules. IPSC kind of self divided itself into two groups, one who wanted a fun and effective way to practice, the other wanted to win. The second group started to use stranger and stranger guns. The problem was that the first group still liked to win. (hey we are all competitors at heart, losing sucks!).

So IDPA was born. Limited number of rounds kept everybody on an even playing field. The idea being that if everybody had guns that were about equal it would be more of a test of skill and not gear.

That is one thing that I like about 3 Gun vs. IDPA. Run what you brung.

GeneS
January 3, 2003, 08:47 PM
I’ve been shooting IDPA since 1998 and for the most part I think they have done a decent job with the rules. Some of my .02:

Reloads my way: you can’t intentionally leave good live rounds behind. Reload when necessary or when you want, as long as you retain live rounds. Reload with retention, tac-load, slide lock are all OK. If you want to count rounds and drop an empty mag with one in the chamber that’s OK too, but if you leave rounds behind it’s three seconds. If the match director wants to force a reload, put more than eleven rnds. In the string or start with the gun downloaded.

The rule book needs to be clarified to make it less open to interpretation.

I like the 10 round rule. Partly, because until elected leaders get smarter, that’s the maximum capacity of new magazines sold to the general population in the US. Mostly, because it levels the playing field for the common pistols used for carry. A 13 shot Sig P228 might be your perfect service gun or CCW, but no way could it keep up with a 17 rnd. Glock 17 if the string required more than 14 shots.

I like the one classifier. Yeah, you could keep practicing it and probably qualify one class better than you really are, but then you just get busted by everybody else in that class. And if you shoot the whole 90 rnd. classifier at one time, as required, you’re not going to class much above your true ability.

Jim Watson
January 3, 2003, 10:26 PM
"If you want to count rounds and drop an empty mag with one in the chamber that’s OK too,"

That is NOT ok. It has been gone over considerably; you may NOT count rounds and drop an empty mag with a round still in the chamber. The applicable IDPA legal reload is a SLIDELOCK reload. There are only three IDPA legal reloads. The other two are the Tactical Reload and the Reload with Magazine Retention. It seems the Tac Load and the RWR are becoming equivalent, but I have not seen an official pronouncement on that yet. For now I take it that a Tac Load can be required and if it is, a Reload with Retention doesn't count.

"The rule book needs to be clarified to make it less open to interpretation."

Amen. A professional technical writer once offered to go through and rewrite it for free, between projects. He wasn't turned down, he was ignored.

"I like the 10 round rule. Partly, because until elected leaders get smarter, that’s the maximum capacity of new magazines sold to the general population in the US."

I don't *like* it, but I think it is wise for an organization founded after the ban on "high capacity ammunition feeding devices" to conform with the law and require its members to conform with the law. That is something that bothers me about USPSA. It has been 8 years since an American could buy a new 11+ shot magazine, yet USPSA keeps recruiting shooters and conducting matches for Open and Limited with no capacity limit. And taking advertising for shops "tuning" high capacity magazines. There are only two choices for a new Open shooter who wants to keep up; assemble magazines from "repair" parts in violation of the law; or pay scalpers' prices for magazines claimed to be "pre-ban" but with no documentation. Call it civil disobedience if you like, but it is not a way to run a competitive sport.

GeneS
January 3, 2003, 10:46 PM
Jim,

Sorry, I was not making myself clear in the post above when I was going on about reloads. Yes, you are 100% correct, there are only 3 legal reloads in IDPA. I was saying if it were up to me, there would be a 4th, drop a mag as long as it were empty, regardless of slidelock or 1 in the chamber. Also no required tac and/or reload with retention under the clock.

Jim Watson
January 4, 2003, 12:09 AM
OK, Gene.
No less a light than Jeff Cooper said you ought to be able to count your shots and reload with the last round in the chamber. I dunno about us ordinary shooters, though. I am now shooting SSR and trying hard to learn how to count to six again.

The great tendency has been to take Tac Loads off the clock. There was one Tac Load on the clock at the 2002 Nationals, as best I recall. I just consider it a dexterity test and go ahead.

Check out the Polite Society for a different angle on the problem.

faustulus
January 4, 2003, 01:30 AM
I have heard a good deal about taking reloads off the clock, but this seems a complex answer to a simple problem. There is no good reason for a "tatical" reload. Just dump it and let everyone reload however they want. In my opinion that is the one advantage IPSC has over IDPA, namely shooters are allowed to use their imagination when attacking a stage.

I wonder what will happen to Limited 10 and IDPA if the magazine ban sunsets.

PvtPyle
January 4, 2003, 10:02 AM
Well highcaps may be expensive, but in most states they are still legal. I dont see it as the org making itself "legal" after the ban, I see it as making the game playable to the cheap, or even less affluent. Nothing wrong with either of those things (we Mormons have been known to be notoriously cheap).

Andy, who would we talk to about getting 3 gun matches set up like the one you guys run in Vegas? That was a hoot! We knew going in that we had an I cecream cone in hells chance of winning, but we all leaned alot and it was A BLAST. To set up a game with those rules, who would we talk to, is there a National org?

WESHOOT2
January 4, 2003, 08:39 PM
Only IDPA rule that grabs my crank is my Caspian 1911 is illegal because of its optic-fiber rod front / ghostring blade rear sighting system.
And it's never touched a ten-rd mag; it holds eight plus one.

Hardly racy, just practical.

Whine off.




----------------------------------------------------

"all my handguns are competition handguns, too"

Andrew Wyatt
January 5, 2003, 12:46 AM
*shrug* it all comes down to what kid of person you are. If you are a means justifies the ends person, then the rules don't matter, and you will train how you fight and shoot in IDPA or IPSC or SWPL or whatever how you will on the street.

You can't keep people who want to be gamers from being gamers, no matter what the rules.


I'd like IDPA to make the rules more conducive to allowing me to shoot how i will fight (which would be open carry from a field type holster since i don't have a CCW).

Correia
January 5, 2003, 12:24 PM
Weshoot. That sucks. I agree with you on that. I don't see any problems with fiberoptic sights. To me anything that you would normally carry should be fine. (but then some doofus will jump in and claim to carry a C-More so I guess you can't win).

Andrew, is Bakersfield in Kern County? I was under the impression that that is one of the counties in California where the Sheriff will actually issue permits. (same as Merced, my home county).

John Forsyth
January 5, 2003, 12:33 PM
Fibre-optic fronts are legal. Ghost ring rears are not. Been shooting fibre-optic fronts for years.

Captal_de_Buch
January 5, 2003, 01:32 PM
I shoot both IPSC/USPSA and IDPA.

I agree that IDPA has more rules and restrictions on how the game is played however it’s still a lot of fun, kinda like playing chess with handguns. :) IPSC/USPSA, on the other hand, is a full tilt boogie, heart pounding adrenalin rush. :D .
:what:

Andrew Wyatt
January 5, 2003, 04:16 PM
Bakersfield city does not issue permits and i'm not 21 yet.

I think it would be nice to have a set of rules that allows for people to use conbat worthy equipment, even if it carries more than 10 rounds or is purple and has a magazine funnel on it.

ryucasta
January 5, 2003, 11:28 PM
Allow kneepads to be used as discretionary safety equipment. The current rules only allow you to wear them underneath your full length pants so what if you decide to wear shorts that day because it is 105 in the shade.

Correia
January 6, 2003, 12:36 AM
Ryucasta, good point.

On the no knee pad rule I heard somebody justify it by saying that you should be wearing what you would actually wear in real combat. :D By that logic I would most likely be in my underwear, with no eye protection or hearing protection and shooting down my hallway.

If they are going to have the rule that says you must take and knee instead of allowing you to squat then knee pads should be fine. Lot of folks use them in 3 gun, but that is a lot more physical game, but still. (One other sucky thing about the illogic of kneeling being more "tactical" than squating, what happens when you take a knee in that proverbial dark alley and it happens to come down on a rusty nail or broken bottle?)

Jim Watson
January 6, 2003, 01:02 AM
I wear kneepads under my khakis for IDPA (Seldom wear shorts with or without kneepads, it isn't a pretty sight.) I figure they are protective SPORTS equipment just like my safety glasses and ear muffs, neither of which I wear "on the street." Neither do I expect to be involved in 14 gunfights on my way to the grocery store.

I figure the knee down requirement is more an administrative convenience than a representation of effective tactics or technique. It is easier for the SO to see you have a knee down than to be sure you are squatting low enough to be adequately using that oil drum for cover. And if IDPA is all the tactical training and practice you get, kneeling on a bottle in an alley may be the least of your worries.

John Forsyth
January 6, 2003, 01:14 AM
I do not have a problem with knee pads. I think they should be in the same venue as ear and eye protection, safety equipment. Like Mr. Watson said, I do not get into 12 to 16 gunfights in any given day.

faustulus
January 6, 2003, 02:48 AM
I didn't even know about the knee pad rules until someone pointed it out. I think that is a perfect example of the rules not being logical.

Tacblack
January 6, 2003, 04:47 AM
They are both games I like IPSC better but the IDPA is shoots more closer to the house. If IDPA would just stop saying "IN THE REAL WORLD" that just burns me every time. And the "GET SHOT IN THE HEAD WHILE I RELOAD, RELOAD". All most forgot one, "you can't move when reloading" why? I better stop.
I forget the tac-reload most of the time.

Andrew Wyatt
January 6, 2003, 03:42 PM
What burns me is that in both organizations, the Gamesman drive the rulemaking process. In IPSC, it's because the sport caters to them, but in IDPA, the rulemaking process is designed to cripple them. If they set out some rules that were designed around more combatworthy weapons instead of crippling gamesmen, then I'd be more inclined to shoot it.

Jim Watson
January 6, 2003, 06:38 PM
Andrew,
Have you ever shot IDPA?
Have you ever been to an IDPA match?
Or just read the complainers' posts on your computer?
Just wondering, I see plenty of "combatworthy weapons" the places I shoot.

I once had a purple gun. I am now sorry I had it refinished plain blue. My CDP and ESP guns have magazine (well) funnels, as allowed in the rules.

"Open carry from a field type holster?"
No.
You just have to pretend you are a free adult and operate as though your rulers allowed you to carry a concealed weapon.

"Carries more than 10 rounds?"
Forget about it.
IT IS AGAINST THE LAW FOR AN AMERICAN TO POSSESS A MAGAZINE HOLDING MORE THAN 10 ROUNDS MADE AFTER 1994.
Bill Wilson organized IDPA in 1996. He elected not to put us in the position of having to choose between paying astronomical prices for pre-ban magazines or committing a felony by assembling high-capacity ammunition feeding devices from "replacement tubes." I don't like the law but I think he made the right policy decision.

If you don't like the above, try IPSC. You can have as many rounds in the gun as a magazine 140 or 170 mm long (depending on the Division) will hold. And they will not ask any questions about where you got it. You can use any holster that will keep the gun off the ground. You can wear a bikini.
And don't get the idea that the "gamesmen" are taking anything away from you. They are mostly excellent shots, fast on their feet, who can analyze the layout to shoot it in the most efficient manner. And many of them will tell you how to do it, too! They, like any other sport, want competitiors, not suckers.

There is no set of rules that can be written that will let you win without knowing what you are doing.

Correia
January 6, 2003, 07:34 PM
As for combat worthy weapons, I wouldn't want to get into a gunfight with a master class shooter from ANY of the shooting sports. Seriously.

We need to keep in mind that all of these things are games. If your choice of game also happens to help you practice more realistically, more power to you.

Personally I think that the sport that has helped me most with tactics is Paintball. :)

PvtPyle
January 6, 2003, 07:48 PM
Yeah Jim, I think it is a safe bet to say Andy has been to a Match or two in the major shooting disciplines, IDPA, IPSC, and 3 gun.

As far as highcaps being illegal to own if they were made after 94, who cares? There are litterally TONS of preban mags out there. It is just a matter of how much you want to spend. People should not be penalized because they refuse to be cheap. I say run what ya brung. Got a Glock 17 but only use 10 round mags cause you dont want to pay the highcap prices, fine. You are still better off than the guy who runs a 1911. But if you choose to pay the price, you should not get kneecapped but a policy that is "supposed" to level the playing field. The better shooters will always win, but you could at least still shoot like you carry.

Personally, 3 gun is the way to go for me. They let you run what you brung and kneecap you for your choices.

Now if I can find a decent 3 gun match in my area....

Navy joe
January 6, 2003, 09:06 PM
Now I see a lot of griping here and elsewhere about IPSC and IDPA "GAMERS". Mostly coming from GSSF types and newer shooters. I don't agree with everything that D.R. Middlebrooks says, but he's on to something here.

http://www.tacticalshooting.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?topic=270&forum=6&5

So, are you a blamer or a gamer?

Best plan is whine less, shoot more, pretty soon you'll have less to whine about.

Andrew Wyatt
January 6, 2003, 11:31 PM
*shrug* i find it silly to change how i fight because someone else wants to "level the playing field".

If someone whants to shoot a pink STI with a mag well, fine.

I fail to understand how a gun that's reliable, doesn't use batteries, is accurate, is concealable and is adequitely powerful isn't suitable for "street" use.

I think IDPA (and IPSC) rules are missing the point, in that they require a person to possibly use equipment they would not have with them when they are in a situation that their matches simulate.

What people end up with is a situation where their carry guns are different from their "IDPA" guns, and I think that invalidates any possible training use IDPA has.

It should be a given that matches aren't your only training, but they should reenforce what training you do have.

PvtPyle
January 7, 2003, 12:54 AM
NJ, I am neither. I am a simple soldier who loves to shoot. But I also like to shoot in a manner that does not conflict with my training. Sure I am competitive and like to win, but for me staying alive is more important.

Fellowship and the commaradery that is built on the range is great, I really enjoy it. I enjoy running the lanes and putting down steel. But when I get penalized because I broke some stupid gamer rule for conducting myself like I have been trained to do, and get some twit who cries because he didn't choose to spend the money I did, it kind of kills the whole experience for me. I would rather worry about hitting the steel than focusing on wether I am about to break some rule made to keep a "level playing field".

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your planning sucked.


One of the big things I noticed that set apart the 3-gun match from the IPSC and IDPA matches was the REAL pros couldn't care less what you brought. They knew they could smoke you with a Lorcin. But they spent more time than anyone of us would have dreamed in teaching us new guys better methods and tactics for what we were using. Those guys bent over backwards to help us out. I haven't found that at the few IDPA matches I have been to so far.

I didn't get into this thread to piss and moan about why I dont like IDPA or IPSC. I originally got into it to see if there was a way for the people who carry guns daily, or in a professional capacity to get a new catagory. Or if there was another competition that catered to those groups. But I also felt justified in listing my specific complaints, maybe find a compromise to them. If you like IDPA or IPSC, great. I like IDPA just fine. But I am looking for something with more flexability and more realism.

Tacblack
January 7, 2003, 01:53 AM
Somebody kick this horse I thinks its dead! By the way what do you shooters think will happen in IDPA and IPSC production class if the sunset on the hi-cap ban goes away in 2004?

Navy joe
January 7, 2003, 02:42 AM
Pyle - If you are military you can shoot USPSA with your duty gear. Holster still has to pretty much point at the ground. No crossdraw or tanker type holsters. I see some pretty eclectic guns come out to our local matches. Also there are usually two-four IPSC GM around and they are they most helpful shooters, with lots of free advice. (Well except for one very young GM, hasn't learned the humility gig yet). We now see a lot of the local IDPA gang show up, and they shoot their IDPA stuff, but they drop their mags and don't use cover much. Fun is had by all.

3 gun. Many are run by a sanctioned club and they tend to do things either USPSA or IDPA style. I personally prefer the USPSA type. I see all types of guns at these, the only person we made fun of was the guy with the tac vest, shorty 870 that he short-stroked every time and M-14 that he could miss 70yd plates with. One fella shot a Beretta pistol, stock AR, and 870 with no mag extension or anything. finished 4th overall of about 70. Marine FAST platoon leader, go figure. Smmmmoooth SG reloads. I have shot some 3-gun with a Mosin M-44, plan more. Nobody laughs. Soon as I get enough mags I'm shooting my Kahr MK-40 in a match, oughta be a long day.

The Blamer vs. gamer thing was aimed at no one in particular, sometimes we all fall in those traps. I don't see it necessary to be a "gamer" but I try very hard to stay out of the "blamer" category. It's a symptom of our society where everything is somebody else's fault.

PvtPyle
January 7, 2003, 08:28 AM
I have never seen a USPSA match in our area. I would be interested in giving that a go if I could find one. Andy, was the match you guys put on for us using USPSA rules?

Correia
January 7, 2003, 10:43 AM
Pyle, the USPSA=IPSC. The US shows that it is the American version of the International PSC. :) Those guys shoot in Salt Lake at the PMAA range. I believe 3rd saturday. That last match I told you about was USPSA rules.

Andy's crew use their own set of rules, when you hear competitors talking about SOF or WC rules that is what they are talking about.

No good 3 guns in your area? Ouch. I take that personally. I think that we put on a good 3 gun. We run about 50 shooters through 9 or 10 diverse and fun stages and get people done by 3:00. I'm pretty proud of that.

Since I've become a match director I have heard complaints from EVERY angle. To military. Not military enough. To hard. To easy. More round count. Less round count. Don't like IDPA style scoring, it penalizes guys who shoot bigger rifles (being one of the only guys who normally shoots a .308 and WINS the fricking rifle stages I have no pity for somebody whining about that). We not more physical challenges. This ain't a track meet. I want to run around more. I'm old I can't run. On and on and on.l It don't matter I can't make everybody happy.

However we do manage to make most people happy, and we run one of the most popular matches in Utah. The next one is March 15th. I'm the match director for that one. Going to have 10 stages. Hope it is fun.

And getting back to equipment, in the USPSA 3 gun I just shot in I won the shotgun stage with a pump 870, 18 inch barrel, bead sights, and 2 shot extension. I beat guys with 10 shot Benellis, 1100s, speed loaders, vang comps, porting, you name it. Kind of good for the ego. :)

PvtPyle
January 7, 2003, 12:37 PM
I didn't know that Andy's group ran their own rules, I thought those were the normal 3-gun rules and you ran IDPA (which you do) rules. Dont take it personally, you dont make the rules.

Andrew Wyatt
January 7, 2003, 01:20 PM
Did you read my PM, PvtPyle?

Dad's still talking about doing one up there.


as for the rules, they were pretty much made up by the (swat) WC3gun staff, and aren't those of any other organization (to my knowledge).


I may be biased, but i think the WC3gun rules for pistol make good sense, because they allow you to carry in an open carry field type holster or a concealment type rig.

this means that for a pistol stage like "mcdonald's lobby" which takes place in the simulated lobby of a fast food place, you can wear your concealment rig and get a chance to learn its faults and yours while dealing with an urban pistol problem.

on the obverse side of the coin, on a problem like the one Richard CRO'd for this last year, whose name escapes me, which is obviously an outdoor field scenario, you have the choice of using a flap holster or other open carry rig, which is argueably what you'd have with you if you were outside city limits.


IDPA doesn't allow me to do that, and i think that's a fault.
I still want to shoot it, because I have a suitable holster for it.
I'd like to shoot from a flap holster, bbecause that's what i'd probably use if i ever needed to use a pistol, but It won't kill me to learn how to shoot from concealed.

PvtPyle
January 7, 2003, 01:35 PM
I haven't gotten any recently......

Correia
January 7, 2003, 01:55 PM
Now we are confusing IDPA rules with 3 gun rules. At our local 3 gun we use IDPA scoring, and IDPA paper targets, but the equipment rules are pretty much wide open.

Andrew, what does your dad have in mind?

Tacblack
January 8, 2003, 03:45 AM
Just wanted to answers Navy Joe, I would be a gamer. Sometimes it good to shoot last you see all the tricks and no one can use you loop hole against you! I have also been gamed, but no need to drag women into this post.

PeacefulWarrior
January 9, 2003, 08:14 AM
I enjoy IDPA but you can definitly game it. Anytime you get out a clock and bunch of rules it becomes a game.I think that IDPA is the most practical of all of the gun games but it is still a game.I go to practice my fundamentals and have a good time. I don't get wrapped around the axle over time or score,I just try to improve.

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