Brownie POP


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Bruz
March 22, 2003, 11:30 PM
Jedi, sorry to be complicit in hijacking your butterfly knife thread!


Got it down?

Brownie, I would not be so presumptive to say that I have it down, but can say that I am able to "perform" the POP and am already much faster with it than I am with the "wave". At first it was kinda anti-climatic but my son noticed that not only am I alot faster with the POP, but can draw with much more "stealth". With out my arm waving around the draw is less noticable (if desired), but more importantly it would be harder for an opponant to block me in opening the knife. I also have better grip and control with your method. Ya going to have any classes around here? Thanks!

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brownie0486
March 23, 2003, 08:02 AM
Sounds like you are on your way toward knife craft. My pleasure sir.

The presentation time is important so that when danger threatens you are able to fill your hand with steel immediately.

PM me and we can dicuss your question about training.

Brownie

DRG
March 23, 2003, 07:25 PM
Brownie ....


please , please , please ........


how can i learn the " pop "so i can dump my waved emersons???


thanks :D

brownie0486
March 23, 2003, 07:55 PM
check your PM


Brownie

DRG
March 23, 2003, 08:02 PM
brownie ....... THANK YOU :D





:what:

Soap
March 23, 2003, 09:10 PM
Okay...I feel like I'm being left out. I'm willing to send a check to Mr. Brown just so I can learn this technique. I'm tired of thumbstuds, holes, flippers, waves, et al. How about it Brownie?

brownie0486
March 23, 2003, 09:24 PM
Dan

Check your PM.

I'd take the check but I'm giving you an early christmas present.

Brownie

Tamara
March 23, 2003, 10:05 PM
As someone who totes a waved Emerson daily, (mostly for its convenience) I'd love to find a way to make other knives as responsive.

Do you publish an instruction pamphlet? I'm intrigued...

Soap
March 23, 2003, 10:07 PM
I'm extremely impressed. After doing it about a thousand times* with both a CRKT M16-14 and a Benchmade 940, I'm hooked. This technique will definitely change the way I look at folding knives. Mr. Brown, thank you for your generosity!

Nothing like the Christmas spirit in March! :D

Which knives are best for the Brownie Pop? I'm looking to keep the price under $200 if possible. I really like the solid slab of G10 and ATS-34 known as the Buck Strider folder. I've handled a bunch of knives in my day but I haven't used the Brownie Pop on any of them so I'm essentially starting from square one in my evaluations.


*An exaggeration obviously since doing it 1000 times in a half hour would make my arm fall off ;) It actually only took about 3 tries to be able to do it, and 50-100 repetitions to get it down.

brownie0486
March 23, 2003, 10:28 PM
Tamara--Check your PM

Glad you like your present Dan.

For under two hundred you can get one hell of a knife for defensive purposes. I prefer tip down when choosing mine. Tip up has produced stabbing my thumb with the tip while diving into the pocket on quick retrieve exercises.

Pm me once you think you have found something you like, I'll see what I can do.


Brownie

Charles S
March 24, 2003, 12:37 AM
brownie0486,

If you don't mind sharing again, I am very interested. I am currently carrying two waved Emerson knives, but I am always on the look out for a better technique. I guess we will always be students.

Charles

Bruz
March 24, 2003, 02:26 AM
It actually only took about 3 tries to be able to do it, and 50-100 repetitions to get it down.

Daniel, congradulatios! I have been practicing with all my knives and certain ones do lend themselves more to the POP than others...thought a heavier blade (used a Microtech LCC) would be better because of the gravity used but was practicing today with a lighter blade (Benchmade 710) and it was much easier. I would go to a knife show and try a bunch out, or make friends with Tamara as I think she has every knife made!

Soap
March 24, 2003, 10:39 AM
Here's a tip for those who have learned the Brownie Pop: Go to the Emerson knives website and download the .mpegs from the video vault of people opening with the Wave. Then you can pretty much watch the file on repeat and see if you can beat them on the draw. Good practice!

Bruz- Thanks! It is a great technique. But you're right, we're at zero in our knife evaluations now...roadtrip to Tennessee! ;)

brownie0486
March 24, 2003, 12:55 PM
Bruz:

The pivots are tighter on the LCC [ I have one ]. Breakin on the LCC can be up to 1000 "Brownie Pop" s.

Mine is just starting to work well after that many retrievals from the pocket and "popping" the blade.

It works better as your repetitions of opening increase over time.

Brownie

Wes_Tulsa
March 24, 2003, 06:56 PM
I'm dyin' to know what the "brownie pop" is.

cold
March 24, 2003, 10:00 PM
Geesh, will you guys knock it off? :) All I hear is the sound of blades snapping into lock. Brownie, what have you started? :cool:

It works, its fast. What more can you ask? I'll tell you, "What am I going to do with it now?" You've pulled it, do you indulge yourself in a Rambozo fantasy, or do you employ solid defensive techniques that work. You're on the road, ask the questions.

bladework neophyte,
Mike

Bruz
March 25, 2003, 01:43 AM
Geesh, will you guys knock it off?

Think I will...ya think insurance will cover "POPers elbow"?

Charles S
March 27, 2003, 11:05 PM
Gentleman,

I am still working on the technique, but my initial impression is that it will be the best way do rapidly deploy an edged weapon in a defensive situtaion. The technique works very well with my Emerson Mini-Commander.

I think it is an outstanding addition to my weaponscraft knowledge.

Brownie,

Thanks for the information.

Charles

brownie0486
March 27, 2003, 11:19 PM
Charles:

"draw straight, keep your steel sharp and watch your back";)

Brownie

ahenry
March 28, 2003, 11:50 AM
Somebody please explain to me why I need to emphasize rapid knife opening. Saying you need a super fast knife opening skills is like saying you need speed like Bob Munden has. I certainly wouldn’t suggest that speed is bad, but I have yet to hear one person provide a credible reason for it other than perhaps, “its cool”. That’s a valid enough reason, but lets not attribute more worth to speed than it deserves (don’t take that as an insult Brownie, its just a comment on the need for the tactic, not the tactic itself). All that one could ever possibly need is a solid draw, not a fast one.

Soap
March 28, 2003, 11:58 AM
ahenry- The Brownie Pop in my limited experience has been much more solid than using a thumb stud, wave, flipper, etc. The blade opens with authority. In fact, I would go as far as saying that I have never seen a more solid way to open a folder.

brownie0486
March 28, 2003, 12:21 PM
If you are ever attacked with a weapon at combat distances the "draw" gets your defensive tool into play [the game].

If you excersice a slow draw you may not be drawing at all. If you can't get it into play you can't use it.

If you can't use it why carry it to begin with.

Even with firearms, the presentation to ready is paramount to getting into the game of defending yourself.

Actually you don't NEED to emphasize rapid knife opening in your defensive roles at all. You could just stand there and take a few hits while slowly deploying any of your defensive tools whether they be gun, knife, asp, keys, etc.

The emphasis should be on tactics and tehcniques which can keep you in the game and hopefully survive. Of course tactics and techniques are unnecessary if you don't have the tool in hand when the fun begins.

Altercations with aggressive perps threatening you with a knife can often be nuetralized just by presenting your own knife. They would rather rob/mug/hurt someone else who is less apt to defend themselves by being unarmed than one who has instantly produced his own defensive tool.

As most perps will have their weapon in hand already, we start behind the curve and must somehow attempt to gain back the disparity created by being unarmed against another who has produced a weapon of some kind.

I would prefer to fight knife to knife instead of relying on unarmed defensive skills. I'm unarmed until I put something in my hand with which to defend myself with.

If presenting your defensive tool while being attacked in a timely manner [ as soon as possible upon recognizing the threat to your life ]was not important we would would not need to carry defensive tools.

In a life and death situation, the faster we negate the disparity of force the better the chance of surviving the encounter.

You pull a knife on me as I look like a victim easily preyed upon and then I produce a knife instantly, you may just figure that I might know a little something about a knife fight.

In another instance where the deployment of the tool was essential to negating any more injury---------
A small boy has fallen and caught his shirt sleeve in the bottom of the escalator and is "pinched" tighter and tighter as the material is being sucked into the treads disappearing into the floor. Screeeming, yelling like he's being killed, one steps forward deploying the folder and instantly cuts the shirt away thereby freeing the boy and preventing further nerve, muscle damage and possibly long term disability.

The paramedics would have arrived within minutes but the outcome for the boy would have been very different had someone waited longer than necessary to extricate him from that situation.

The tactical folders market has always looked for faster, easier ways for someone to deploy their product once taken from it's resting place. If there were no need or demand for such equipment we would not be seeing the genre of folders with various features which CAN get it into play when required.

If you never need the speed thats fine. I like a tool that gives me the option of a quick deployment. It may mean I live or die. I like to err on the side of caution and be prepared as mentally and physically as possible. To have it available immediately if needed is important.

I can fill both hands instantly with knives from both sides if necessary. If you pull on me and I produce [ "pop" ] two instantly from my pockets you are going to have to rethink your game plan of assaulting me. The "pop" scares the hell out of people when just being shown. They do not expect you to have the ability in a blink of an eye to produce a readied defensive tool. They have never seen it so it can't happen and they are lulled into a false sense of security thinking they have the upper hand which is instantly negated by the "pop". The element of surprise might even be enough for them to rethink their intentions and backoff to go to someone else playground.

No offense taken

Brownie

ahenry
March 28, 2003, 04:21 PM
I’ve heard these arguments before Brownie (except for one that I’ll get to in a sec) and I disagree with them. You are taking an extreme as the opposite of a super fast draw (super slow) and arguing that a draw is one or the other. I never suggested such a thing. I said a solid (and I’ll add, smooth) draw is more than sufficient for any knife encounter you will face. I’m not even remotely suggesting that Swiss Army knife opening" speed is sufficient, but rather a solid draw and opening of 99% of the tactical folders out there (i.e. one handed opening) will do the job required. Show me the scenario where an “instantaneous and quick deployment” of a knife will solve the problem, but the solid and smooth deployment of the vast majority of competent knife owners (with competent knives) will not.



You did bring up intimidation and that is a valid point. I wasn’t clear in my first post but I was really getting at the “has to be fast” issue, not necessarily the “Brownie pop”. I’m not familiar with it, although I suspect I know what it is. The noise factor could very well be of value and I don’t mean to dismiss that. In addition, if this particular method enables one to open a wide array of knives exactly the same way there would be a nice benefit to those that rotate their EDC.

brownie0486
March 28, 2003, 04:43 PM
You are either ahead of the curve or behind it.

In bladecraft, if you are ahead of the curve, you win.


If an opponent draws a knife on you and you react as you state you will, you will lose.

If the same happens to me, the "Brownie Pop" regains that lagtime.

I don't want to be behind the curve. Lagtimes are what make defensive moves hard, reaction never beats action.

The "Pop" gives you the chance to reduce the lagtime and therefore have a greater chance of survival.

Brownie

Bruz
March 28, 2003, 05:55 PM
(i.e. one handed opening) will do the job required.

Perhaps, but in my experience with the Brownie POP the knife feels like it is much more secure in my hand as it is being opened...when I use my thumb to open the blade I feel an impact to my arm could possibly dislodge the knife, when I POP it open my thumb is securely on the knife, just feels better and more secure. As far as the speed, why not use the fastest method available!

Dave Williams
March 28, 2003, 06:47 PM
I sent you a pm.

Dave

ahenry
March 29, 2003, 12:40 PM
Brownie, If you have to pull a knife you are behind the curve regardless of how fast you get that knife into play. I’ll ask you yet again to show me a scenario where a solid and smooth draw is not sufficient.

If an opponent draws a knife on you and you react as you state you will, you will lose. I have to say though, that this statement strikes me as somewhat ignorant. Assuming the “you” is meant generically, and both the attacker and the attackee are of similar skill levels (in reality the attackee probably has greater skill), you are trying to tell me that the person with a smooth solid draw will loose? Are you real sure ‘bout that?





Bruz,
Perhaps, but in my experience with the Brownie POP the knife feels like it is much more secure in my hand as it is being opened...when I use my thumb to open the blade I feel an impact to my arm could possibly dislodge the knife, when I POP it open my thumb is securely on the knife, just feels better and more secure. As far as the speed, why not use the fastest method available! I wasn’t speaking of the POP. I am speaking of the need to open a knife super fast as opposed to a practiced (i.e. familiar) solid and smooth draw.

Bruz
March 29, 2003, 02:30 PM
I am speaking of the need to open a knife super fast as opposed to a practiced (i.e. familiar) solid and smooth draw.

Ahenry, unlike Brownie I am speaking as a novice with no actual experience so may I ask you a question. If you had a choice between a practiced super fast solid and smooth draw, and a practiced (slower) solid and smooth draw, which would you prefer?

As I said I am a novice, before the POP I was practicing conventional solid and smooth drawing...the learning curve has been so much faster (no pun) with the POP. Within the first day my draw was smoother and more solid with the POP, faster has been a fringe benefit!

ahenry
March 29, 2003, 03:55 PM
If you had a choice between a practiced super fast solid and smooth draw, and a practiced (slower) solid and smooth draw, which would you prefer? The fast one of course. I think I’ve said two or three times so far, that there is absolutely nothing wrong with fast deployment. I will probably never spend much time focusing on shaving off that last half to full second, as that last bit has greatly diminished marginal returns. I still want somebody to explain to me (or show me an actual scenario) how a person will actually be better served with a 1 second or so faster draw. Lots and lots of emphasis in the knife world is placed on how fast the knife is to open and deploy. I think that emphasis is greatly misplaced, which is why I brought it up.


As I have said from the beginning, this is not a discussion of the POP, it is a discussion of the need for that speed. If the POP is actually better for other reasons, intimidation, solidity, similarity across knives, etc and the speed is a by product then so much the better. If, however, the POP is superior because it is faster, then I want somebody to tell me why I need that last little bit of speed.

brownie0486
March 29, 2003, 05:12 PM
AHenry:
The short answer is "when time is of the essence".

Lag times usually run 1-1/2 seconds for the normal person to see the problem and react physically to the problem. These are airforce command stats based on 20-25 year old pilots who have better reflexes than most of us.

The faster ones are closer to the one second times.

I'm better served the faster I get into play if I have to react at all. I stated you started behind the curve defensively, it's that the faster deployment leaves your a## hanging out there unprotected LESS.

Lets take your initial response here. I wsn't talking a nail nick grandad knife [ swiis army ]to to ultra tactical folders, but lets use that one here.

Both are knives you could defend with if pressed to do so. One gets you into play in say 3 seconds by digging into your pocket and dgragging it out, using two hands to do so and the other in 1 second by touching the knife at your pocket. You are attacked by someone with a knife, club, whatever where you are allowed to draw and defend with either.

Okay so you stated you'd go for the faster technique earlier, which one did you choose? The faster one. I see you have chosen wisely given a choice. That said then, you prefer the speed where it might be an advantage.

You have answered your own question then, the faster deployment would be your choice. If there are degrees of speed through various techniques of the "draw" you may now choose a technique that you prefer to practice for your defensive presentation. If you choose one that is a fraction or 1/2 second slower than one you could choose you then have limited yourself physically from what potential you have.

If you like the smooth steady draw technique you have practice and believe it is adequate than by all means you have no need to learn something faster. You are comfortable with your defensive needs *** is. No problem there at all by me.

I choose to have several techniques in my "bag of tricks" so that I can recall them dependant on what my needs are at that time.

Using a thumb stud, spyderholes or opening disks requires you to do several things exactly right with the drawing hand and fingers.

If you have practiced that and have it down perfect even under stress where fine motor skills are not your best hope [ documented too many times to even go into that ], you risk fumbling one fo the steps you must perform to get into play.

Go with whatever you feel will work for you, we carry different knives as we are different and have different tastes, requirements in choosing a folder with which we may have to defend with are also subjective at best.

If it can happen it probably will as Murphy lurks with us everywhere. You are counting on not having to need the knife any faster than you now deploy and practice with the knife you carry. You are not erring on the side of caution and ignoring the very chance speed may be a factor in your survival. Thats okay also with me, it's just not something I'm willing to do myself.

I'd rather have something faster to rely on when I may need it than to assume I'll never need it and ignore the alternative.

IF I need it its there in a blink. If you need it it isn't.
We prosper or fail [live or we die ] with the choices we make in life.

Live long and prosper.

Brownie

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