"Ignorance" of the law


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benewton
December 24, 2002, 03:32 PM
New Hampshire is a "shall issue" state, so me and the current iron go everywhere together, except post offices, of course, which are private hunting reserves.

But you can post the property, legally, so far as I know, and that's the case in a pair of malls I'm sometimes forced to enter. And, in the normal event, I ignore the warning, hidden in the middle of a sign posted off to the side of the main MALL entries 'cause, after all, it's a CCW.

If you go through a store entry, thence to the mall by the store's interior door, you will see no warning anywhere in your walk...

So, since I came in through Sears, how could I possibly know that...

Seriously, though, anybody have a legal thought on this one?

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MitchSchaft
December 24, 2002, 03:37 PM
In my State, they have to have it posted on every entrance in the building. Otherwise, you can't get in any official trouble except maybe criminal trespass.

Watchman
December 24, 2002, 04:42 PM
Since I get to play deputy occasionaly I asked this very question to the sherrif and the "official policy" is this...

If we get a call to a "man with a gun" and observe that he is acting normal, we will cautiously walk up to him and ask if he has a CCW. Upon inspection of it, we will inform him that he is in violation of the CCW law by entering a posted place.

We will then ask him to leave the premises.
Luckily, Im not aware of the fact that thats ever happend here as the only place I know of that is posted is the Compressed gas store and they do it for saftey reasons.

Thats it.

Being a CCW instructor, I know the law better than most cops do as I teach it. To me, it is not a big deal, and to be honest with you, I dont really care if you have a CCW or not, as carrying with out a permit is a misdeameanor. However, we also have a "journey" clause in the law, which has been the subject of much debate in this state and it is less than clear,so I choose to give one the benefit of the doubt...:D. If i find out that you live away from the store that you are in, then to me you are on a "journey".

If you are being testy with me, I ll ask for for DL and run it, if all comes back well, I may give you a speech about allowing yourself to be "made" and encourage you to fix the problem.

I dont know how they do things up younder in Yankee land, but thats pretty much the way we do it here. I will mention that the big citys are a different thing. For instance,if you travel to Little Rock, they have standing orders to arrest anyone without a permit due to their quickly growing gang problem. If that be the case, youll have to let your lawyer get your gun back and it aint cheap.

Thats my take on it. Ill just ask you to leave. However each state is different.

sm
December 24, 2002, 05:34 PM
Watchman: We share the same state , you defined what I was taught.

Personally, I choose the The High Road . I choose to lead by example--as challenged by Rich, TFL , THR and other RKBA .
I see no reason to put my CHL at risk, or give the other side reasons to diminish our 2A efforts.

I avoid places I can't carry best can. Sometimes its unavoidable. Gray areas- choose the side of caution and don't.

I've had to attend restuarants that serve alcohol for instance--I don't drink--nonetheless I can't legally CCW. I was comforted knowing I was in the right--and I recognized an LEO, whom escorted myself and members of the party to our vehicles. Course he wouldn't have 'made me' but our ethics are sound. In the parking lot- "now if all heck had broken out...I'd given you my BUG" he shared with me .

Matter of principle-for me.

Watchman
December 24, 2002, 05:53 PM
Where ya at re1973 ?

One of the reasons I became certified as an LEO ahwhile back wasto circumvent the law as to how it pertains to CCW. Sounds ridiculous I know, but it was one of the several reasons.

As an LEO, I get alot of exclusions that the citizen dosent. Even though I have CCW, I dont need one to be able to legally carry as long as I have my badge and ID with me.

For instance, I LOVE to go to Red Lobster in LittleRock or North Little Rock. Knowing what I know about LittleRock and their BS gang problems as of recent, one would have to be an idiot to not carry if they were legal. Unfortunatley, as you have stated, going into restraunts armed is technically illegal in places such as Red Lobster, Lone Star, Chilis, as just about all of the good resturants serve beer.

There was an attempt to amend that provision of the law a few years ago, but like usuall some pissant liberal antigun democrat held it up and got away with it and it failed.

FWIW, most of the "illegal" events that deal with CCW occur in this state deal with alchohol. Most are simple, such as being in public with an open container and having your gun on you or being popped with DWI, which will get your liscence.

Personally, I think that the law needs to be amended to keep otherwise law abiding people out of trouble for BS charges like carrying concealed in a place that serves alcohol.

We dont run into that here as we are a "dry" county.

I commend you on your high standards, What really annoys me is that good people like yourself are putting themselves in harms way just to follow the "law". IMHO, the law ought to be an asset to you instead of a liablity and this is clearly one example that it aint.:mad:

sm
December 24, 2002, 07:02 PM
I'm in the "Evil City"
Building that Klinton Library here

Email me--I might need a friendly legal escort out of Red Lobster some night. :D

BTW the buffett across the parking lot is Good.
Yes the gangs have been mischevious--

Just keeping the High Road, and conditions yellow and up on this end.

Blackhawk
December 24, 2002, 07:13 PM
Gotta be posted at every entrance, AFAIK, so you should keep in mind just what entrance you came in.... :D

El Tejon
December 24, 2002, 07:33 PM
ben, can you restate your question? I'm uncertain what you are asking.:confused:

sm
December 24, 2002, 07:35 PM
Blackhawk:
I avoid that by not going to malls at all :D

Preacherman
December 25, 2002, 10:37 PM
re1973 - does that make you a "non-mall-ninja"??? :D

sm
December 26, 2002, 12:26 AM
ninja?
me not hardly
I fit more of the dull, mundane - low profile-
'course been referred to by names I can't use around a grandmother:D

just don't like to shop, too many yrs in retail, and here, lots of stores have left mall, or malls doing so poorly about to close.

pax
December 26, 2002, 12:33 AM
In Washington, the posted signs carry no real force, except that the property owner can ask you to leave if he doesn't like the gun he has discovered you are carrying. If you do not leave upon the shopowner's request, you can be charged with trespass.

I am not willing to disarm simply to humor these people.

Nor am I eager to give them my money, if they are not willing to recognize my basic human rights.

Nevertheless, there have been occasions when I have carried in such a place. As long as it's properly concealed, it's not a problem. Even if it is not properly concealed, if I'm not a boor about it, it's still not going to be a problem. *shrug*

pax

Every man has a property in his own person. This nobody has any right to but himself. – John Locke

sm
December 26, 2002, 01:48 AM
pax
here, there is a particular sign that has to be posted -able to be viewed from 10'. If its not properly worded, it carries no weight.

Some business found out REAL quick why customers quit coming in, whether a 'homemade' sign or the proper verbage one, CCW'ers made it clear. Some businessess removed the signs--CCW'ers still stay away.

I think our attitudes are the same on this. However one can lose CCW if certain lines crossed. So, like you, concealed is concealed. I and my $ goes to those that better support my rights. If suspect a 'crackdown' on a restuarant( or other business setting) and I have to be present--I take it off. Rare, but has happened here. Said establishment , gets the thumbs down and word spread.

A certain large discount store changed the policy because of incident, lawsuit , sign came down pronto next morning.

JPM70535
December 27, 2002, 06:33 PM
My attitude has always been concealed means concealed so I don't worry about where I can or can't go armed with the exceptions of Government complexes,schools, and bars. FYI, here in Fl. a restaurant is legal to carry in as long as the majority of it's sales come from food and not alcohol.

benewton
December 27, 2002, 07:16 PM
CCW is concealed, and so, no entry to anywhere would be, in theory, prohibited. After all, if they can't see it...

Seems to me though, that anything other than VT laws make zero sense, are hard to understand, if you can wade through the pages that exist, and are impossible to inforce in a fair manner.

El Tejon
December 27, 2002, 08:01 PM
benewton, that's what makes each day at the office so interesting!:D

More laws, less justice.

CAP
December 31, 2002, 09:58 PM
Here, the entrance has to be posted. I'm not sure about EVERY entrance (I'll check), but it would make sense and simplify grey area.

I too try to avoid any place that prohibits, but sometimes can't - city parks, POs, banks, etc. I really do cherish my permit and do not wish to lose 'my rights'.

I have ended up in a few situations where I had no choice, but kept an average look and had no problems.
I do not knowingly carry where I know it is prohibited.

Shamaya
January 2, 2003, 11:02 AM
Point me to the federal statute prohibiting carry in a post office -- I've never seen that one, and I've looked for it. I wouldn't obey that law anyway as my life is more precious than foolish whims -- but I'm interested in seeing if the law exists at all.

Zundfolge
January 2, 2003, 10:41 PM
Shamaya, I believe this is the statute that is sited when people say it is illegal to carry in a post office, which you can see is not 100% clear on the issue of licensed CCW in a post office. I'd say that as long as there is no state law against it and its not a condition of your CCW and you aren't there to commit a crime then you would be fine..

http://www.capdefnet.org/fdprc/contents/shared_files/titles/18_usc_930.htm


Here's a good read on the subject:
http://communities.prodigy.net/sportsrec/gz-rtc-usps.html



But when it comes down to it, concealed is concealed.

Shamaya
January 2, 2003, 11:56 PM
Thanks, Zundfolge.

But the exemption in 18 USC 930 appears clear:

"...(d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to -

"...(3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes."

Carrying a concealed weapon is definitely a lawful purpose for someone with a concealed weapons permit/license. And if you read the Second Amendment like I do -- I suspect you do -- bearing arms is a lawful purpose anywhere.

That being said, I suspect a CCW permittee could get off with either a warning or through trial by jury via using state statute saying carrying is a lawful thing to do if you've gotten yourself a "permit", but I doubt a non-licensed gunowner would have a prayer.

Meanwhile, the "tried by 12 vs. carried by 6" rule applies, as always.

JMLV
January 10, 2003, 11:53 AM
From an article I read over at "The Gun Zone" its only illegal to carry in a PO IF it states so in your state carry laws. the law covering the Post Office itself (the federal regs) clearly states an excemption for a CCW permit holders. At least as I and the auther of the article read it. POP on over and check out the article. :)

Viking6
January 10, 2003, 12:35 PM
The Post Office in my neighborhood has a sign stating that firearms aren't permitted or words to that effect. Heck it might be a ghostbuster like diagonal slash decal on the glass door. I don't remember exactly because I don't go in there often but I do remember some kind of indicator from a couple of weeks ago. And I do remember that it was prominently displayed so you couldn't miss it.

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