LEO question - illegal concealed carry


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tyme
January 2, 2003, 11:12 AM
Would you be likely to arrest someone for illegal carry if they volunteered that information during a traffic stop?

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King
January 2, 2003, 12:07 PM
I'm not an LEO but I'll answer.....be prepared to get busted for illegal concealed carry.

Best to get your self into a legal carry situation.

Redlg155
January 2, 2003, 01:28 PM
More than likely you will be taking a trip downtown. Best to keep your mouth shut about things. You are asking an Officer to excuse a misdemeanor or in some l places a felony.

This may or not be impossible even if the Officer wanted to just warn you. Many patrol cars have video/audio capabilities to record traffic stops. He pretty much has his hands tied.

As stated before, get yourself legal. If you can't get a permit research the legal methods of transporting a firearm in your vehicle and abide by the rules.

The consequences of getting caught, if a felony in your state, could bar you from gun ownership for life.

Good Shooting
RED

Double Naught Spy
January 2, 2003, 02:12 PM
If anything, volunteering that you are actively breaking the law in the presence of the officer is just going to make his job a little easier.

"Officer, I am carrying a gun with me for personal protection, but I have no permit."

Or

"Officer, I have three doobies in my coat pocket, but they are for personal use."

As a cop buddy has told me, some people manage to talk themselves into getting arrested, sometimes leaving the officer no choice even though the officer originally would have let things slide.

The other thing is that people often volunteer information that makes things worse. For example,
Officer, "Son, do you know why I pulled you over?
Kid, "Because I was going 20 miles over the limit?"
Officer, "Yes, for that and the light you have out."

So the kid gets two tickets from the officer and the officer wasn't running radar and never clocked the kid speeding, but the kid volunteered the infraction to the officer.

Edward429451
January 2, 2003, 02:30 PM
Whatever you say can and will be used against you....

Got distracted while driving to work talking to my cohort about the job we were going to, sped up without realizing it. Blew right by a cop like he was standing still but was not (He was doing the speed limit 45mph). He pulled me over and said rather testily "Do you know how fast you were going?" I said "no sir I was keeping pace with the traffic". He said "Cmon' I was doin 45 and you blew by like a rocket, I hope you realize how fast you were going..."
Pause to let me answer..."No sir, no idea, just keeping pace..."

"You better slow down, I'm gonna let it slide this time"

Didn't realize till later that I saved myself by not giving a definitive answer. They cant guess how fast you were doing. They either radar you or get you to give up the grapes, then ticket you.

You have the right to remain silent. You have the right to be vague. You have the right to save yourself. Offering LEO's info is like handing them staples and asking them if they wont use them to staple charges to your forehead...:banghead:

This is not disrespectful in any way to the LEO. Its a self preservation thing.

El Tejon
January 2, 2003, 02:39 PM
I don't know why some people talk, but they do. It always went toward sentencing, not the arrest or prosecution. I "no filed" a couple of guys with expired permits (their attorneys called me right away) or gave withhold prosecutions (one to an Alaskan kid with a wrestling scholarship here--he was shocked that carrying a pistol was such a fuss), but they still went down to the county's bed and breakfast (well, mats outside the holding cells).

St. Gunner
January 2, 2003, 03:45 PM
I used to carry without a permit all the time, from about age 17 or so. When pulled over by a Texas DPS trooper for some infraction if they asked, "Do you have any firearms in the vehicle?" I always answered truthfully, I was never given a ticket, hauled down town or given anymore than a "You know you are not supposed to have that." But being dressed neatly, hair cut, and clean-shaven I think I was given a pass that many others where not. I rarely go to towns that are actively anti-gun, San Antonio, Natalia, Somerset, Shertz, and a few other small towns around San Antonio, but when I did and got pulled over for some simple infraction or some insurance check years ago, I always lied through my teeth. I figure that Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine and others would look at it as a smart lie. The Texas DPS has always been a class act as far as concealed carry, legal or otherwise. I know that as recently as a couple years ago it was still taught in the academy, I have a family memeber who is a trooper and he was taught to not hassle people packing.

The truth is, if you are carrying the way you should be, concealed, you shouldn't be spotted at all. I don't believe in going anywhere unprotected, I have a wife and a daughter I am responsible for, that responsibility supercedes any laws this country may pass or the state may enact. It may not mean I am a law abiding citizen, but I am an honest and good citizen, and to me that counts for more.

If you pack, do it quietly, concealed, and with responsibility, and when you do dress nice, be clean cut, and polite and so if you are snagged in some illegal search, you have a good case for the officer not having probably cause when it goes to court.

We live in a country today that is less than friendly to the good citizen who takes his responsibility for safety seriously. We owe it to the men who founded this country to use civil disobediance to follow the guidelines they set forth for us, no matter the current feelings of politicians and some law enforcement officers.

I have a permit today, mainly to speed up gun transactions at shows and shops, but it does provide me some safety from illegal arrests for practicing my second amendment right. If you have a way to get one, do so, if it means borrowing money to do so, do it.

Be Safe...

Low Budget Shooter
January 2, 2003, 06:16 PM
St. Gunner said,

"We owe it to the men who founded this country to use civil disobediance to follow the guidelines they set forth for us, no matter the current feelings of politicians and some law enforcement officers. "

I'll tell you all that this is what I'm trying to develop the courage to do. But civil disobedience can be hard!!! I work in a job where public opinion is important to my career and to the success of what I am attempting to accomplish. Getting arrested for carrying into the bank, and spending some number of years in federal prison would be a bit of civil disobedience that would bite me in the fannie really hard!!!

But if the signers of the D.O.I. risked, and in most cases lost, their lives, families, and wealth for these ideals, how American is it for me to not be willing to risk anything?

Civil disobedience. Man, I don't want to do it, but it seems we may have to do it.

LBS

MitchSchaft
January 2, 2003, 06:32 PM
Civil disobedience. Man, I don't want to do it, but it seems we may have to do it.

It's a question of where you want to draw the line when it comes to people getting in your way.

ninenot
January 2, 2003, 06:48 PM
Typically, in Milwaukee, one can have a weapon in the car, as long as one does not have it within "easy reach."

That means: put it on the floor under the PASSENGER seat. Unless you really crank up the LEO, they won't care, as long as it was a stretch to get to it.

Navy joe
January 2, 2003, 07:11 PM
Required reading. http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=34976

If I get arrested oh well, I was dumb. I won't be volunteering any info though, and if asked my answer will likely be an outright lie. Civil disobedience; training to remember once I am carrying legally, or more importantly when it is no longer possible to legally carry.

If you are getting frisked you have already probably made a number of mistakes to get to that point.

TallPine
January 2, 2003, 07:16 PM
A buddy of mine once said that if you're not willing to break a little law like concealed carry, what are you going to do when they tell you to register/turn them in ?

JPM70535
January 2, 2003, 07:40 PM
While I agree that no one should have to have a CC permit to exercize his right to carry, in the interest of saving oneself a trip to the crossbar hotel if confronted by a LEO, I would choose to become legal ( if possible ) and avoid what could become a major problem. resulting in Jail time and loss of gun rights permanently.

All my traffic stops were recorded on video, which removed any leeway when a violator of some minor traffic violation was found to be illegally carrying. No LEO I ever knew would risk his job to overlook an illegally carried weapon. I know I never would have.

Drjones
January 2, 2003, 08:10 PM
St. Gunner: Beautiful reply! Well-said!!!

It may not mean I am a law abiding citizen, but I am an honest and good citizen, and to me that counts for more.

Something for you to consider: Is it better to respect the law, or to respect what is right? -Thoreau


You are a good man, Charlie Brown. :)

TallPine: Hmmm.....Interesting....

alan
January 2, 2003, 08:20 PM
tyme asked:

Would you be likely to arrest someone for illegal carry if they volunteered that information during a traffic stop?

I'm not involved in, with or about LE, however I'm really curious about why anyone would "volunteer" ANYTHING, in ANY circumstances involving the police.

If you get stopped running a red light or something of that sort, the police ask for your drivers license and vehicle registration. Perhaps proof of insurance too. Politely provide that, by all means.

Otherwise, it seems that there is absolutely nothing to talk about. Besides, the fact that you might or might be carrying a concealed weapon, with or without a license or permit has absolutely nothing to do with what is a routine traffic stop. Leave it at that.

tyme
January 2, 2003, 08:44 PM
I suppose I should have forseen the result of the question, along with silence from LEOs not wanting to rowel their own departments or THRers. My apologies. I was already convinced annoucing illegal carry was generally a bad idea, but that's now been reinforced. It's safe to say it would be foolish to make decisions that could land you in jail based on the opinions of THRers, even THR LEOs. It was not my intention to change my behavior based on responses, or lack thereof, from LEOs.

Gordon
January 2, 2003, 09:33 PM
If I was packing while driving (which I don't) there would be no need to tell him unless you are asked to turn around and spread them. Now a handy gun within reach is also considered concealed carry, dont give permission to search and then charges would stand to be dismissed if you kept your mouth shut as there was no "probable cause". Gun hidden in car out of reach same thing. Gun laying out in open-declare it! It should be unloaded anyway, if it IS loaded your gonna get written up and it taken but you may not go down town.

St. Gunner
January 2, 2003, 11:37 PM
LBS,

I know, i've been there in the same spot years ago, I switched jobs for that and a number of other reasons. My permit came when I got married and had a kid, more because of the pesky responsibility thing of providing for them.

Tyme,

I was already convinced annoucing illegal carry was generally a bad idea, but that's now been reinforced.

I don't think it was a bad idea, you asked a question many people seem to be forced to wrestle with everyday. I know I am from time to time, even when I seem to think I have it all decided something will arise that makes me question the very premise I choose to live my life under.

I went to town to order a new gun and a scope and grab some other things and decided to pose your question to a couple San Antonio police officers. The consensus with them seemed to be most of the officers would let it slide if at all possible, that most would not even ask the question that for years had been a standard, "Do you have any firearms in the vehicle?" I think studies like the one done by Lott have come a long way in promoting carry, legal or illegal, within the elements of law enforcement. You have to be a complete and total fool to believe that honest otherwise law abiding citizen are a menace to society simply because they wish to protect their loved ones lives.

I think that mentality is fading, sure in areas like Chicago you'll be seeing it for years to come. In corrupt places in Texas where the Law enforcement divisions are the largest criminal element in towns or counties you will see intrusive and routine harrasment of not only un-permited carry people, but also permitted carry individuals, not because of some underlying concern for the other citizens, but because they see it as a threat to their own criminal enterprises.

What this country needs to see, needs to have broadcast on the national news is a shooting at a public place it is illegal to carry being thwarted by an armed citizen who neglected the law. The place I feel least secure in my life is a college classroom, zero security, and thousands of students under severe stress from many different angles. You can feel the tension in those classrooms somedays. It is one of the places I regularly go to that outright bans the possesion of firearms and places some pretty strict punishments on those who violate that law. The thing is it is not the law that is preventing a huge dose of violence there, it is a smidgen of common sense on the part of the people there and the values they use to lead their lives.

This country through various outlets has worked hard to destroy those values that preserve human life, and attempted to bury the Golden Rule under some political red tape. We have reaped the harvest of that in our lives and the laws we have seen enacted in an attempt to save us from ourselves. The thing is, we as a culture have never stayed from that value of the preservation of human life, the Golden Rule, and equality for all of us. So we need to look at these laws as what they truly are, a way to silence us and remove our ability to live peaceful lives. Don't ever believe for a moment that politicians truly believe that guns and people like us who own them cause crime, Charles Schumer may say it from time to time, but the true reason politicians like that push the laws they do is for the same reason crooked sheriffs harrass people who carry guns, they see it as a threat to their criminal enterprise. People like Schumers criminal enterprise is stealing from America her free market system, replacing capitilism with socialism hybridized with fascism.

So everytime you ask yourself should I slip that S-O-B Holster on and go about my business or leave it tucked away in the dresser, remember that the laws that make you ask that question are written by men with the intent of stealing your country. Then ask yourself the questions that have justified in my mind my past un-permitted carry, "Is it what the Founders would have done? Am I doing this with the goal of being a better citizen? Is it the responsible thing to do in this circumstance?"

I leave my gun at home if I think I might even consider touching booze on the outing. I leave it at home if I feel everyone else via security will be checked and rechecked. I leave it at home if I feel that a threat won't exist to me or my family. I'll go on to say I rarely feel any of the above things.

But I also know that at some point in my life I will meet a police officer who will conduct a search without probable cause, and that I will have an arrest for illegal carry. I try to lesson the places it could happen by planning on my part, but on occasion I am forced to ask myself, "Am I willing to chance arrest today for this?"

Feel out your local officers and see what they say, engage some at a local gunshop and see what their view is, then ask what they think their peers views would be. You can gain some real insight in that situation, I know I did today by asking a few questions about various things, one the carrying of a knife that has been a part of my dress for years but which someone just informed me was illegal. It is, but they felt most of their peers would harrass someone like me for carrying a knife like that. I asked what "like me" meant and was told someone who was well groomed and polite.

I've come to the conclusion that in most areas of Texas, laws are enforced on the criminal element and the otherwise law-abiding citizen is for the most part ignored. I know it isn't that way throughout the country, but it should be.

So their you go, that is the Texas standpoint.

I wish the leo's would express their views on this, it would be interesting to read. Tyme you asked a question that is one of the main reasons I turned down a position in a Law Enforcement Agency a couple years ago. I couldn't find a way to be comfortable with enforcing some laws, i'm curious how some can and would love to hear it.

Ed Brunner
January 2, 2003, 11:59 PM
For example, in Mississippi, your motor vehicle is considered as an entension of your home and it is legal to carry in your car etc. It makes sense.
What doesn't make sense would be a law that lets you have it, but it can't be accessable.
Now just WHOM does that protect???

tyme
January 3, 2003, 02:09 AM
"Excuse me, is that a concealed handgun I saw printing a few moments ago?"
"No sir, Officer, that's my concealed bible." :uhoh:

I wonder how many hours are consumed in this country by people determining how to best carry concealed to avoid detection - either for carrying illegally or against company/business policy. And how much of that time cuts into work, reduces productivity, and leads to lost tax dollars for State and Federal governments.

chaim
January 3, 2003, 05:17 AM
Having personally seen situations that prove that the security we think we have is an illusion and having had friends in situations but living in a state where there is virtually no civilian CCW I worry about this myself. I have been assulted and ended up in an emergency room, when I worked at a major department store some years ago a co-worker was visited by a person he reported for shoplifting- the shoplifter came back after getting out of jail (he had a record so there was jail time) and came w/ his buddies and a gun, a group of friends were robbed at gunpoint and are only here because the guy didn't sneeze (he had his finger on the trigger) and a friend had her uncle murdered while walking on his own street. All this and I live in a "safe" area.

Frankly, I do sometimes carry, but most of the time I stick with a knife and pepper spray because on a day to day basis I'm more worried about being caught than needing the gun. This is a really liberal anti-gun state. I learned after putting my NRA sticker on my rear window of my car that here cops consider an NRA sticker to be probable cause to search your car. I worry greatly about the police reaction should they find out that I'm carrying and thus I don't carry as a matter of habit, only when I feel that a situation is particularly risky- carrying more cash than normal, going into certain neighborhoods especially after dark, etc(I may add going to the range since anyone seeing you enter or leave a range can figure you have a gun, a highly desirable object by the criminal element, though I'm not sure due to a higher likelihood of being caught).

The place I feel least secure in my life is a college classroom, zero security, and thousands of students under severe stress from many different angles. You can feel the tension in those classrooms somedays. It is one of the places I regularly go to that outright bans the possesion of firearms and places some pretty strict punishments on those who violate that law. The thing is it is not the law that is preventing a huge dose of violence there, it is a smidgen of common sense on the part of the people there and the values they use to lead their lives. Funny you say that. I can say that I felt pretty safe in two classrooms at least. In those two one of my class buddies (different person in each case) was a cop and usually ignored the anti-gun rules and carried, often openly (and being a cop no one cared). Too bad the rest of us can't be trusted in the same way.

dave
January 3, 2003, 05:49 AM
What did you expect to hear?

You post on a gun board, asking what people think about breaking a law you, and most of them, don't agree with. Then when you see their anwsers, which are posted on ths same PUBLIC board and advise you not to do it, you are disappointed.

Not trying to stir up trouble, but come on. What did you expect anyone, especially leos, to tell you? Some leos might let it slide, but we can't expect them to state it here. I don't expect anyone to risk their job for me, their famlies have to eat as well. If someone pointed out to me, when there is a good chance the conversation is being recorded, that he was breaking the law but didn't want me to do my job because I am "on his side", I'd arrest him for "being stupid in a no-stupid zone".

I know we don't believe we need anything other than the 2nd Admendment to carry, but we also have to deal with the world as it is sometimes, not the way it should be. You've gotten some good replies here. Get a permit even if you don't like it. It'll save you a lot of trouble. If you can't get one, you've most likely already got more problems than we can help you with.

And remember the BEST advice given, don't say anything you don't have to.

Stay safe.

Pendragon
January 3, 2003, 11:45 AM
Not to put to fine a point on it, but this question is pretty rich coming from someone living in TX which is shall issue.

If you CAN get a permit and just do not want to spend the money or "be on the list", in my opinion, that is pretty poor risk assessment.

Here in Sacramento, PRK, a CCW permit is simply not an option for us commoners. If you want to carry, you gotta do it on the sly which, now that I have a baby and a mortgage, seems like less of a good idea.

Hkmp5sd
January 3, 2003, 12:02 PM
Even if 100% of the LEOs on this board stated they would not arrest a person informing them they were illegally carrying a handgun, it would still be unwise to do so.

There are something like 500,000 sworn LEOs in this county (I think). Out of that number, there are very few that are actively involved in the "gun culture" and seek uniform observance of the 2nd Amendment.

There is a 99.99% probability that if you were stopped for a traffic violation and volunteered that you were illegally carrying a firearm, that you would be arrested. Most officers doing traffic stops finds no difference in this admission and announcing you have rock cocaine in your pocket.

The odds are that you will not be stopped by an LEO that agrees with your "civil disobedience" and will let you off.

You have three choices: Get a CCW and carry legally, don't carry at all or carry illegally and keep your mouth shut.

chaim
January 3, 2003, 12:38 PM
There are something like 500,000 sworn LEOs in this county (I think). Out of that number, there are very few that are actively involved in the "gun culture" and seek uniform observance of the 2nd Amendment. That is too true. I have a cop acquaintance who thinks I'm some kind of gun nut simply because I asked him if he'd like to join me and a buddy at the gun range. To make it look more attractive to someone who only shot his service weapon (not sure which one, though it kind of looks like a SigPro, it is a Sig .40s&w) and backup I mentioned that there would be a couple 1911s and .357mags there. We must be crazy gun nuts then.:rolleyes:

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