7.7 Jap Rifle


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boo586
January 3, 2003, 08:39 AM
I am going to be getting my father's 7.7 jap rifle that my grandfather brought back from WWII. I think it is one of the earlier production guns with the mum intact, monopod, sling, aircraft elevation sights, cleaning rod, bayonet and 5 original cartridges in a stripper clip. I want to turn this gun into a limited shooter and need to get her looked at by a smith to make sure she is operational order. What should it cost for a smith to look at her and let me know if the gun is in fine working order.

What can I do to know if the gun is in working order?

I have seen on the internet that I can buy 7.7 jap brass that was formed from 30-06 brass or .303 Brit brass. Is formed brass any good or should I shuck out the bucks for Norma 7.7 Jap brass? Does anyone here have any experience with reloading for this cartridge? Any help would be much appreciated.

boo586
TFL Alumnus

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Mike Irwin
January 3, 2003, 12:09 PM
I don't know what a look-see will cost you, but shell out the bucks for the Norma ammo.

If you're looking for a "limited" shooter, by the time all is said and done you'll likely have spent the same amount of money, but a LOT more time, trying to form the ammo from another case.

Penman
January 3, 2003, 03:59 PM
Since the mum is intact, it should have a little more value as a collector's piece, so baby it.

Gewehr98
January 3, 2003, 10:08 PM
.303 British is rimmed. You'd have to turn down the rim and deepen the extractor groove in the brass with a lathe to get it to work properly, among other problems.

Lots of folks went with .30-06 brass to feed their 7.7mm Arisaka rifles. Problem is, the brass has to swell a LOT to fill out the 7.7mm chamber dimensions upon firing. Sometimes the .30-06 brass will hold up to this abuse, sometimes it won't.

Doesn't sound like your particular rifle is gonna get fired every weekend. Get 100 pieces of good Norma brass, they'll last you a lifetime.

clem
January 4, 2003, 12:39 AM
Boo586,
Leave the rifle as is, just clean it up. It is worth more because YOU know it's history and I'm sure your grandfather didn't just have it given to him.

I've got a Walther PPK .32ACP with NAZI markings that my father in law took off of a German during WWII. It will stay as it is for my children to have and pass on.

George Stringer
January 4, 2003, 07:37 AM
Boo, I'd think you could plan on $25 or so for checking the headspace and inspecting the rifle overall. George

boo586
January 6, 2003, 03:26 PM
Thanks everyone!!

The majority of the shooting that I will probably do with this gun will be downloaded cartridges with lead bullets. I will probably get some of the formed 30-06 brass and use with the downloaded information and get some of the norma brass for some full power stuff, just to have on hand!!

BTW,
My grandfather was in the Navy, trained as a torpedo-man, but fortunately for him they ran out of subs by the time he got out of basic in early 1944 from Chicago, Illinois. They ended up stationing him on an island in the Pacific growing food for the troops, as he was a farmer before he became a torpedo-man. I don't know if he saw any fighting. I wish he were still alive to ask him.

Thanks again,

Boo586

Jim K
January 10, 2003, 11:53 PM
Your grandfather seems to have been honest about his contribution to the war effort. The Navy guys got a lot of Japanese war souvenir stuff, mainly because they had a place to stow it. A soldier or marine simply could not carry much and usually had all he could do to tote his own issue gear.
So the actual battle souvenirs were gotten either as the guys were coming back or were bought by sailors or airmen who could carry them back.

A lot of the Japanese rifles brought back came out of depots in Japan, where MacArthur allowed the Japanese workers to grind off the seal so the Emperor would not be dishonored by having his "mon" on surrendered weapons.

Some owners and sellers, eager to claim combat capture, have told stories about Japanese troops filing off the crests before surrendering or the Army/Marines setting up grinding wheels to deface the crest on surrendered guns. All I can say is that they are interesting stories.

Jim

Bainx
January 14, 2003, 07:56 PM
The 7.7 is notoriously a very strong action. I love the peep sight.
Mine is quite accurate and like you say, an occasional shooter due to the ammo price.
I always have my fingers crossed that some manufacturer will see fit to make a run of inexpensive 7.7. Dear Lord, I would buy a pallet of it.

Mike Irwin
January 16, 2003, 12:59 AM
Bain,

"The 7.7 is notoriously a strong action."

That needs some additional explanation.

The DESIGN of the Arisaka action is very very strong, especially the 6.5mm rifle. There's a thread over in the rifle section discussing this.

However, the 7.7 Arisaka action was apparently slightly modified when it was designed to reduce the amount of steel needed to construct it, but if made to the same quality as most of the 6.5mm Arisakas, that wouldn't be a problem at all.

The kicker for the 7.7 is, though, that by the time a lot of the 7.7s were made, the war was going VERY badly for the Japanese, and quality of the actions had started to slip drastically.

Some of the last ditch 7.7s are truly frightening.

Any 7.7 Arisaka should be checked over by a competent gunsmith before being shot.

Bainx
January 17, 2003, 11:20 AM
Glad you brought up the variance in quality of the 7.7, Mike.
I recall seeing photos of the "Last Ditch" model and it was absolutely scary, the crude sights and welds.

silvrtungdevl
December 17, 2006, 02:21 AM
I have a 7.7 jap and love the gun. it is as accurate as can be. love shooting with it. I recently found ammo for it made by Hornady in 150 grain SP and is about 25.00 a box. It shoots just fine in this gun. It is also not as expensive as the ammo from NORMA. Although Norma is superior in quality it is also about 49.00 a box. Also can anyone tell me where I can find the cross bar for the peep sight as mine is missing. Any information will be greatly appreciated.

clem
December 17, 2006, 02:31 AM
Try these guys for parts:

http://www.gunpartscorp.com/

Clemson
December 18, 2006, 03:38 PM
This thread has been resurrected from 2003!

Your best source of parts will be the Japanese weapons forums at the Curio and Relics forum (http://p223.ezboard.com/bcurioandrelicfirearmsforum) or the Parallex forums (http://p102.ezboard.com/bparallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums).

Beware of purchasing Japanese rifle parts from gunpartscorp. Although I use them for lots of parts, the Japanese parts are mixed originals and reproductions, and you generally don't know which you are getting.

Clemson

clem
December 18, 2006, 09:36 PM
Clemson,
Are these other parts from gunpartscorp defective or bad?

Sunray
December 18, 2006, 09:45 PM
"...the extractor groove in the brass..." There is no extractor groove on a .303 Brit case. The rim is the extractor groove.
Midway wants $86.99 per 100 of Norma brass. $19.99 per 20. They appear to be the only game in town. However, you should look into a copy of Cartridge Conversions. It'll tell you everything you need to know to make your own brass. Mind you, for occasional shooting of a rather highly valued milsurp collector's piece, buying 20 from Midway will likely be less expensive in the long run.

Jim Watson
December 19, 2006, 12:00 AM
Buffalo Arms lists 7.7 Jap brass from Hornady for $34 a hundred, $.45 each in smaller lots. Only question is whether they actually have any to sell.

I think if you have one with monopod and anti-aircraft sights that it is an early enough rifle to be of decent quality. My boss had one similar and to calm him we testfired it with a long string the first shot. The gun didn't blow up and the brass looked good so we figured it was OK and it shot fine thereafter for all the Norma he cared to pay for. But we didn't have the Internet to send us off for a gunsmith at the mere sight of a secondhand gun in those days.

Jim K
December 19, 2006, 01:36 AM
Just for historical interest, there were three Japanese 7.7mm cartridges. The standard rifle cartridge was the 7.7mm rimless, also known as the 7.7x58.

Then there is the semi-rimmed 7.7mm Type 92 cartridge for use in the Type 92 heavy machinegun, a Hotchkiss copy that used feed strips. Although otherwise identical to the rifle cartridge, it will not work in the Type 99 rifle because the bolt face prevents the larger rim from feeding, and the bolt won't close if hand fed. The rifle round will function in the machinegun, but will malfunction because of the lack of the rim.

The third 7.7 is the 7.7 Navy, a Japanese copy of the .303 British, used by the Japanese Navy in license-built copies of British Lewis guns. The guns were used as anti-personnel weapons on ships, as aircraft guns on flexible mounts, and by Naval Landing Parties (sometimes erroneously called "Japanese Marines" by Americans) on land.

Jim

Clemson
December 19, 2006, 08:32 AM
Clem: The Numrich parts are fine as far as functionality goes, and if you cannot get an original spring or screw, they are just about the only game in town. The caution was centered around those who collect and wish to keep the rifle "original." I bought a group of parts for a Type 38, and I got an original firing pin spring, and a reproduction cocking knob. In discussions with Japanese weapons collectors, this is pretty much to be expected. I am not always good enough (knowledgeable enough) to tell the difference in the parts. The collectors look for arsenal marks in certain places, etc.

Clemson

clem
December 19, 2006, 11:44 AM
Clemson,
Okay, so just be warned that the part(s) may not be original, if that is your goal in rebuilding a weapon.
Thanks!

jondar
December 20, 2006, 11:36 AM
If you don't believe that Arisaka action is strong, sometime read, in Frank de Hass' book "Bolt Action Rifles", where he and a friend tried to blow up one of these rifles. They started out with ever progressing weights and grades of powder, ending up with a case full of Bullseye. (I may be wrong it could have been another pistol powder.) They never completely blew it up and the barrell was re-used to make another rifle.

As to the brass, I tried all avenues, one day I just bit the bullet and bought a hundred rounds of Norma unprimed and suddenly life became much easier.

Banshee
December 20, 2006, 07:30 PM
try here. One of the best sites for Japanese weapons. Someone here should be able to point you in the right direction

http://www.gunboards.com/sites/banzai/

also a few good links here

http://www.castle-thunder.com/

R.W.Dale
December 20, 2006, 09:20 PM
I have one that had been heavily sporterized in the past, It's a wonderfull shooter with IMR4320 and Sierra bullets. Brass can be easily and CHEAPLY bought from Grafs.com


http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/krochus/HPIM0875.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/krochus/HPIM0876.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/krochus/Hpim0470.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/krochus/MAS36/pix51354829arisaka3.jpg

R.W.Dale
December 20, 2006, 09:22 PM
DANGIT!!I just noticed how OLD this topic is.

deadeyeodell
June 2, 2007, 11:16 AM
I know this a lil older but just to let you know I make custom ammo for this gun. if someone is interested i have an add on gunbroker.com at:

http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=73068891

Just let me know if someone needs some help reloading or some advise or just wants some ammo.

Jeremy

BPrukop
August 1, 2009, 01:40 PM
Just to let everybody know, you can get 7.7 x 58 Japanese Arisaka brass made by the Bosnian company Prvi Partizan for 51 cents a brass case at Buffalo Arms. Hallajula. You can get 100 rounds for eighteen bucks plus shipping

fletchbutt152
August 29, 2009, 10:24 PM
Gosh I love my 7.7 Jap...1 inch at 200yrds. With an old Weaver 7x

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