Compact 9mm options


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Jaegermeister
January 3, 2003, 10:29 PM
I'm looking for a compact 9mm, something smaller than my Ruger P-95 (great pistol, I absolutely love it). Use would be legal concealed carry.

I looked at a Beretta 9000s last week. That thing was strange. I could not activate the slide release with my thumb without the safety getting in the way. I read they had some fancy design firm do the design for the pistol. They should have had the designer for the 92FS on the job. The 9000s seemed not very size efficient.

I like the Kel-Tec (Kel-Tek?), but not the trigger.

I'd love to have an HK P7, but it is too expensive.

No Glock 26 for me. I hate Glocks. Bad grip angle. I'm not sticking one of those inside the waist of my pants without a seriously safe holster. I know someone who shot himself down the side of his leg with a 9mm Glock 17 that was discharged by his holster.

I'm leaning toward the Kahr P9 or the smaller polymer model.

Is a new Walther P99 compact planned? I read something on that on TFL.

What about the Springfield Armory XD compact 9? Any good?

How small is the CZ P-01? Is is smaller than my P-95?

I plan to stick with 9mm due to caliber compatibility.

It is nice to have a new home. (formerly HerrJaegermeister on TFL)

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Climb14er
January 3, 2003, 10:50 PM
HK USPc 9mm

Accurate. Reliable. Breaks down easy. External safety. Can carry condition 1. Priced right.

Marko Kloos
January 3, 2003, 11:09 PM
Give the SIG P239 in 9mm a good look. Very easy to conceal, and typical SIG accuracy and reliability. It's an 8-shot single-stack 9mm, with optional extended 10-rounders available. Easily one of the best compact CCW pieces available.

Forseti
January 3, 2003, 11:13 PM
If you want to be adventurous...this has not been released yet, so nobody knows just how good/bad it will be...

http://www.rohrbaughfirearms.com/productspg.htm
http://www.rohrbaughfirearms.com/pages/productspg/r_9.gif
Dimensions and weight look very appealing.

Alternatively, despite the bad press on the low cost Taurus Millenium line (issue with PT-111 is some users have complained the plastic rivets securing a metal liner to the plastic frame have come loose...others complain about a long trigger pull, but that is not a very valid complaint since this is a DAO striker fired weapon, with the entire trigger pull priming the striker), I have a PT-145, and am pleased with it so far. Simple, low cost, lifetime guarantee. The titanium variant of the PT-111 is VERY light. The .45 caliber version I carry is heavier, and it is still a good carry gun. I even like the heavy trigger...its not TOO heavy, but there is little risk of accidental discharge. Give it a close look.
http://www.taurususa.com/pix/PT111new.jpg

The new Kahr PM9, while expensive, also looks nice for size/weight, though I have no first hand experience with it.

http://www.kahr.com/images/pm9093.gif

These are some of the smallest, lightest 9mm's around...

denfoote
January 3, 2003, 11:57 PM
What you seek is the Kahr MK9 Elite. It is designed to fire 9mm+P+ ammo all day long and comes with a 6 &7 roung mag with an 8 rounder available. The Elite has the smoothest trigger I know even sweeter than the P95!! I know, I have a P95 too and have had the same problem: Great gun, to big to carry concealed!! Take it from a fellow Ruger owner, get the Kahr!!!

Zak Smith
January 4, 2003, 12:39 AM
The CZ P-01 is much more blocky than the PCR or the regular 75 COMPACT due to the accessory rail, both of which I'd recommend you take a look at. For a SA compact 9mm, the 75 COMPACT is a good choice: the trigger can be made very good, it's accurate, durable, etc. The steel frame might be a little heavy. If you want a DA/SA pistol with the aluminum frame, look at the now-discontinued PCR.

Another idea would be the Browning Hi-Power. Yeah, it's classified as a full-size pistol, but its grip is about the same length as the compact CZ's and Glocks, and it's narrower than both.

I have a friend who swears by his Springfield XD, nee HS2000, but have no experience with it personally.

-z

Sactown
January 4, 2003, 12:46 AM
I'd go with a Sig225. I've had no problems with it at all. Dead on accurate and reliable. Excellent ergonomics. Smooth DA/SA.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid45/pf8e9bc6a068bf6a8f5a384ecaac639e7/fcd5bd70.gif

Skunkabilly
January 4, 2003, 12:46 AM
http://www.skunkabilly.com/images/benelli_p7_commander.jpg

Come on. You know you want it.

$ave tactically, buy $trategically!

.45Ruger
January 4, 2003, 12:54 AM
You are making a correct choice in not considering the P11. I owned one for six months and never got used to that trigger pull. It stinks and I finally used it as a partial trade in on a .45.

agony
January 4, 2003, 02:53 AM
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid39/p7862cfc59c34004c34522968f1554682/fd09d90c.jpg

The sweetest shooting 9mm compact this side of the SIG P225.

fastbolt
January 4, 2003, 03:39 AM
If you're able to rent some of the various pistols at a range ... you ought to consider firing a couple of boxes of QUALITY factory ammunition through a couple of the Kahr's, S&W 3913/908S/CS9, and the smaller SIG's. Somewhere among these compact & subcompact 9mm pistols you'll more than likely find something that "fits" exactly as you'd wish ... and remain within your criteria.

Spending the extra money to shoot 1-2 boxes through each of the rental pistols may save you some aggravation if you select one, but THEN further shooting is less satisfying than you'd hoped ... and you already own it.

Personal "fit" and satisfaction varies quite a bit among shooters ...

Take your time and pick a good one you'll enjoy shooting for years to come ...

Kahr carrier
January 4, 2003, 03:59 AM
I like the Kahr k-9 they are very small package and they carry well you almost forget you have it on.:evil:

railroader
January 4, 2003, 08:42 AM
I haven't shot the XD compact but I have the fullsize. The fullsize is a very good gun with good accuracy and a good trigger. It also is super reliable. The compact looks like it could be a nice carry gun plus it holds 10 plus 1. Mark

bernie
January 4, 2003, 09:25 AM
I am glad I am not the first guy to mention it so I am not the only one to get flamed (just kidding), but try the Smith and Wesson 3913. I have a 3913 TSW (the old 7 round mag version) and it has gained a treasured spot in my heart! It is small, potent, easy to fire, and reliable. I can carry it all day in a VersaMax II holster and hardly know that it is there.

Chan Bates
January 4, 2003, 09:57 AM
Kel-Tec P-11's, their first effort at a pistol specifically designed for concealed carry, earned a rep for a heavy, long DAO trigger (11 lbs initially). It was the major complaint with the gun. KT adjusted their design (8.5 lbs, smoothed the pull), and the stock triggers are significantly better now, very similar to the DA pull on any good revolver.

DAO has a number of advantages for concealed carry.

--You always have the same trigger pull that is reasonable in weight, 8.5 lbs with a KT vs 11-14 lbs DA then ca. 5 lbs SA for many of today's pistols, essentially wasting the first shot in a true panic situation for many shooters, and much lighter than many of the other striker fired pistols.

--You have a true second strike capability for a light primer strike.

--As on a revolver, you do not need a safety or a decocker--additional mechanical devices which can fail, require manipulation, confuse and be forgotten in tense situations.

Unlike many striker fired DAO's, such as the Taurus PT line and the Patriot .45 (Cobra), the KT hammer/trigger system is simpler and smoother. It is also rather easy to adjust to your liking, both lightening the pull and shortening the trigger stroke. There are instructions around the 'net how to do these minor mods. My four KT's have 7 lb. smooth-as-silk 1/4" shortened pulls that will rival any DA anywhere. I did it myself.

So, when you recognize that the KT trigger rap is now undeserved, and add that the P-11 features the smallest, lightest, highest capacity, safe, simple design, reliable, excellent service if needed, S&W mag compatible, plenty of accessories, lots of support, currently available, it deserves serious consideration as a concealed carry piece.

You can pick up a used one for about $150, and IF there are problems with it, send it back to the factory for a free warranty re-build, and you will have a great gun. Or you could dump it for the same $150.

If you have not carried concealed before, you will soon find that size, weight and shape are key factors. KT has them all in excellent proportion.

All concealed carry involves compromise. You want a large caliber, usually you get a large, heavy gun. You want a small, lightweight gun, you get a small caliber, or at the very least a low capacity gun (single stack). You want dead-on target accuracy, you get a large gun with a long sight radius you can't conceal well. I could go on, but you probably get the point. KT has designed and very successfully marketed the best compromise out there, in my opinion.

Of course, in theory price should not matter for a serious concealed carry defense handgun, but for many it does, and that is another reason to look at the econmical, but not cheap, KT.

I don't mean to bash all the other fine, reliable, well-designed guns being suggested here. How, when and where you carry will affect your decision on what handgun to buy. Whatever works for you is what is right, but don't automatically rule out a Kel-Tec without trying one out.

http://www.ktog.org/vbulletin/
http://www.kel-tec.com/
http://www.ktog.org/

CB3

Zak Smith
January 4, 2003, 11:31 AM
I gotta' agree with Skunkabilly: you only have to buy the right thing once.

-z

PCRCCW
January 4, 2003, 11:34 AM
Good question...first off....Hey there! Now lets see.....what to say?....IMO the Beretta 9000 is a quality gun...but I HATE the grip..its a chunk. Too damn fat/chunky for what it is...every gun I have conceals as well..is more comfy, has more/equal capacity and has a thinner grip.
The CZ PCR/Compact are excellent choices...same with the 39/69 series S&W's, Kahrs.....all great choices.
Ill straighten some stuff out here. The CZ Compact 75 is a trad d/a gun. It is a heavy carry especially with 15 rnds, but offers cocked and locked carry. The PCR/PO1 are also trad. d/a guns but have the decocker...no cond 1 ! The PCR is the best carry as it is slimmer than the PO1 and personally, I dont see anyone carrying with a light fixed to the gun. It has all of the "tactical" bells and whistles I love in a panic/defensive situation.
Its 5 oz lighter than the Compact and thinner than the PO1.
The S&W guns are first rate.........period.
Taurus PT 9** guns are also great and offer the best safety KNOWN TO MAN! Much like the HK version.....cond 1 safety with decocker function.
Kahrs are stellar guns......Ive shot a dozen, owned and carried them....great guns for limited capacity single stack designs.

Have fun shopping.....Shoot well

Zak Smith
January 4, 2003, 11:48 AM
Just to clarify. The CZ 75 COMPACT has a safety and no decocker. The trigger operates in both DA and SA modes. You'd carry this one cocked-and-locked, just like a 1911. Only difference is that it has re-strike capability.

The PCR (and 75 COMPACT "D" - rare) operate just like a classic SIG: decocker. Carry mode is DA on first shot, SA on subsequent shots.

-z

10-Ring
January 4, 2003, 11:58 AM
:evil: Save the money of buying 2 & get the P7M8 1st! :evil: The cult is calling, resistence is futile!

PCRCCW
January 4, 2003, 12:03 PM
You can carry any Compact CZ in Cond 2 hammer down/loaded chamber..the Compact 75 B does offer the option of Cond 1.
The PO1 offers every control as the PCR....
Shoot well

DRGREG
January 4, 2003, 01:19 PM
I'll put a vote in for the Kahr MK9 Elite. Small package, not quite as light as there polymer model but will safely handle +P and +P+ rounds (I am not sure if these are recommended in the PM9). The stock trigger is just fabulous.

The only drawback I can see is the limitation of 6+1 rounds.

Another option is the MK40 for those who profess the superiority of the .40 over the 9mm. The MK40 has to be one of the smallest .40 cal semiautos I have seen, limited to 5+1 capacity though.

flinch
January 4, 2003, 01:56 PM
Im putting in my 2 cents worth for the FN HiPower DAc. Compact ( smaller than CZ and Sig 225 ), will actually fit in a pants pocket in size, 10 + 1, double action/ single action, decocker, has a hammer so you KNOW whats going on, attractive. Trigger is ok in double and not bad & improves with use for single. Good quality and a good price too.

txgolfer45
January 4, 2003, 02:13 PM
too bad you don't like Glocks. A G19 or G26 are excellent choices.

Scott

Gary A
January 4, 2003, 02:28 PM
I would really like to see one of the FN Hi-Power compacts. I've been reading about it and it really looks interesting. I know the CZs are good. If the FN is good and not outrageously expensive it might be a great option. It certainly is smaller and looks slimmer than the CZ. How much are they going for?

Pilot
January 4, 2003, 05:32 PM
Lately I've been carrying a CZ-75 PCR. Great compact 9MM. But I do trade off with an HK P7M8 and a Walther P-5, depending on terrain/clothing/mood.

Oh yeah and a "9MM" Makarov in 9x18. Still 9MM, not just 9MM Luger.

flinch
January 4, 2003, 06:51 PM
Dont mean to steal the thread> I paid $460. Came with 2 mags. , cleaning kit, lock , papers and a very attractive plastic carrying case with box (with cut outs for the gun and all accessories).
The gun is very accurate and a tad smaller than my CZ compact. It is more accurate than the CZ ( Im shooting at 10, 12, 15 yards). The CZ has a better trigger out of the box but the FN is improving all the time. I am very pleased.

sonoranjack
January 4, 2003, 06:58 PM
I hear alot about Kahr pistols but nothing about the T9 Novak. this is Kahrs new full sized pistol. Over all legnth of 6.5" (if it was 7.5" it might replace my Glock 17). A full sized grip. I think I put a fondle on the T9 Novak at a gunshow & the mag well was below the bottom of my hand for easy mag changes. Now the mag is a single stack 8rd 9mm. So the pistol is thin. 2-8rd single stack mags would conceal easy on off side. Now the only thing I don't know is how does it shoot. I like the idea of DAO w/ a light 8# trigger. It would be a little heavier than he 3.5# trigger on my Glock 17. But if I can get rid of that trigger safety. The T9 might be worth it. Now if the T9 has a heavy 12# DAO trigger forget it. Did I say it cmes w/ night sights? It looks like 1 of the smallest full sized pistols made. So what's up w/ Kahrs T9 Novak & why don't I hear about it.

PCRCCW
January 4, 2003, 07:22 PM
Heres a PCR and an FN HP DA c...Its not smaller than the PCR...actually dimensionally the same..within an 8th......
As far as accuracy...the CZ's trigger makes it much easier to be accurate....Even benching the guns at 15-25 yds the PCR did better...both guns NIB at the first shoot.

The FN is a damn fine little gun...I got mine with nights...red rears and green front element. But the TRIGGER SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Mine was at FNH having the trigger gone through by one of the Armours after having mine 2 days....dry fired it over 1000 times...didnt help. The timing of the safeties kicking in at the same time is a design prob......
The gun is back getting an "FN Authorized" improvement regarding the trigger work....but they called and offered this time.
I should get it back next week.......

I think the FN is a great little gun...but not close to the gun it could have been given FN's past designs.........

I did a test shoot with 2 friends...both never shot a CZ before that day. Had the 3 guns pictured.....in order of accuracy, ergonomics and being favored in general by everyone that day....including a couple more range/store employees....it was the PCR, PT911 and the FN. The trigger was the factor and then the grip....short and thick with the finger rests.....its a bummer.

The grip is just a tad small on the FN for larger hands...it would be smaller than the CZ but the finger extension makes it just as tall.

If you got a Compact FN with a better trigger....cool. Ive tried 3 since I got mine and their all the same as mine...hopefully ..was?

They did an oustanding job on the design regarding how the gun looks and points....outstanding. Its a shame the rest of the gun isnt up to the same standards....

Shoot well

BudS
January 4, 2003, 08:05 PM
I agree with Chan Bates...I enjoy my P-11! Plus, one can upgrade it, smooth it, work on it, etc. with ease...unlike some complicated pistols, it has very few parts, has a lifetime warranty & is pretty reliable. I like a little heavy trigger pull- mine is bone stock at 8.5 lb. Loaded 10+1, it weighs 1.45 lb, holster & all. PLUS, it'll take 12- and 15-rd S&W mags...:D I picked it up used for $165 + tax (the guy shot it three times, then put it up, then took it to a local range for sale).

My other carry is a Russian Makarov that had the .380 compensated barrel added before I bought it for $180. It handles any kind of ammo, but for CCW I load Golden Sabers.

I intend to get Wolff springs for both and to continue to fine tune tham. Of all my guns, I like these the most. Next is my S&W Model 19....

telewinz
January 4, 2003, 08:24 PM
Get the $5 trigger shoe for the P11, turns a good little shooter into a great little shooter. Tried it, world of difference.

CleverNickname
January 4, 2003, 08:54 PM
I'll vote for the PM9. After the first couple hundred rounds (the recommended break-in period), no problems with mine at all. Much better quality than a P11.

ArmsAkimber
January 4, 2003, 09:37 PM
I second the vote for a Kel-Tec trigger shoe; it makes a world of difference!

Oh, BTW, I love my Kel-Tec P11! :)

Steelharp
January 4, 2003, 11:01 PM
Look around, be patient, and find a Colt Pocket Nine; they're great!

Mikey D...

flinch
January 4, 2003, 11:19 PM
Please keep us posted about the little FN's trigger. I was curious about FNH customer service too.

Schuey2002
January 4, 2003, 11:51 PM
Mr. Holden,

While you out checking out 9mm's, don't forget to fondle a Sig P228 if you can find one. You won't regret it. :)
http://www.sauer-waffen.de/eng/defense/zoom/p228.gif

Zak Smith
January 4, 2003, 11:55 PM
Though I am biased towards single-action autos, if I were a DA/SA kind of guy, I would buy a SIG P228 and a P239 to match it, in a heartbeat.

-z

makarov
January 5, 2003, 12:22 AM
I was curious about Kahr's new T-9 as well. It is a nice looking pistol with wood grips and all. It is not what I would consider a Full-Size gun, compared to something like a 92 or CZ-75. One of the recent gun rags had a write up on it. Sounded positive. The gun is aimed more at the home defense/tactical/range type gun than a carry gun. I like the idea of a slim single stack gun though. Looked like a very interesting gun, but I don't think it is any wide distribution yet.

Steelharp
January 5, 2003, 12:27 AM
Here's a pic of my Pocket Nine.

Mikey D...

Mr. Fixit
January 5, 2003, 12:50 AM
I'll chime in on the T9, too. Anyone out there have one or at least have shot one? Is there any benefit to it over the K9, other than one extra round and a 1/2" longer barrel (and more weight;))?

yzguy
January 5, 2003, 01:12 AM
another vote to consider the P-11,

complete trigger mod instructions:
http://www.1bad69.com/keltec/triggermods.htm

I carry it with 12+1:
http://www.1bad69.com/keltec/sw12.htm

very easy to work on, and even if you don't totally mod the trigger, a trigger shoe and a lightening mod (http://www.1bad69.com/keltec/triggerpull.htm) ANYONE can do will give you around a 7.5 lb trigger pull...

Logistar
January 5, 2003, 02:26 AM
No problems with my PT-111. For ME, it's ideal. I even have the need for the integral lock periodically.

I am very accurate with it. -feels natural in my (smaller) hand. If I need to draw and shoot quickly, I can do so more rapidly with the PT-111 than with anything else.

If you can deal with Taurus and are not afraid of it falling apart, you might want to check it out. I have checked out a lot of other small 9mms, but have found nothing I like better than the PT-111. I keep it maintained well and keep a close eye on it.

The way I see it, the odds of the pins shearing when I really need it are VERY low and even if they do, I feel like I can still get off a couple of shots before I'd break ALL 3 pins. (FWIW - I'd suggest staying with 110gr ammo at standard pressures.)

(Wonder if the PT-111 will get the same "flames" it got on TFL?):eek:

YMMV

Logistar

faustulus
January 5, 2003, 02:31 AM
The Sigs 225 and 228 would be good choices as would the P7. Another worth considering would be an STI LS or BLS, both are slim small guns. The PCR would probably be the best "band for the buck"

Tacblack
January 5, 2003, 02:32 AM
If you want a P7, no matter what you buy, you will still want a P7. Save yourself the trouble and get what you want, it will be cheaper in the long run. Other wise the Sig 225, STI BLS9 or LS9

Matt G
January 5, 2003, 06:19 AM
10 years ago, we were complaining about the complete lack of 9mm pocket pistols. Heh! Look at the embarassment of riches that has befallen us lately!

There are some wonderful suggestions here. Frankly, though I'm not a "Glock Person", I have to say a G26 would be an excellent selection. From a pure value point of view, one can't beat the KelTec P-11 that I carry daily, and purchased used like new in box for under $200.

The itty-bitty new polymer Khar is nifty, too!

JeepDriver
January 5, 2003, 12:53 PM
P7 is supposed to be a great pistol, everyone who owns one loves it. I've never even held one. Really expensive compared to the other pistols it's up against.

The Kahr has had mixed reviews. A 300 round "break in" period? Some love it some hate it. Try the search function @ TFL and Glock Talk. There are some good threads on the Kahr.

The Sig P239 is my favorite for a CCW. I have put 1000 rounds through mine in 3 weeks. 250 of those rounds were Gold Dots. I didn't clean the gun for the first 750 of those rounds. Never a problem. In my opinion it shoots better then most other compact 9's. And it's accurate, really accurate.

Good Luck

bad_dad_brad
January 10, 2003, 10:05 PM
Compact is Glock 19 size. Much of what has been posted had referred to sub-compact. I have an early Kahr MK9. I don't know if it is an elite or not. But the trigger is SO smooth, much smoother than newer MK9 and PM9s. The serial number is GA13xx series. Bought it in 1995 I think. Around that time anyway. Incredible trigger.

My MK9 is some kind of little powerhouse. I love the little girl. For sub-compacts I highly recommend the MK9. For compact 9mm I would go with the G19 or Sig P239. Skip the G26. It is a chunk. Glock needs to make a competing model against the PM9. Slim is in.

Tropical Z
January 10, 2003, 10:30 PM
I'm anxious to see how the new "FELK" performs.It looks interesting.

txgolfer45
January 10, 2003, 10:33 PM
"No Glock 26 for me. I hate Glocks. Bad grip angle. I'm not sticking one of those inside the waist of my pants without a seriously safe holster. I know someone who shot himself down the side of his leg with a 9mm Glock 17 that was discharged by his holster. "

:rolleyes:


Bad owner and bad holster. Glocks are perfectly safe in a good holster like a Comp-Tac or Sidearmor. I wouldn't put any handgun inside the waist of my pants without a seriously safe holster.

Comp-Tac Ghurka and G19 or G26 works great for me. And I carry with one in the pipe too!

Scott

Steelharp
January 10, 2003, 10:34 PM
bad_dad... I understand somewhat everyone's affection for the little Kahrs; I would really like one myself, if it wasn't for the awful trigger on those lil' son of a guns. I have never felt a single Kahr trigger that I like. They take forever to get to the point of firing. What is the travel distance for the Kahr trigger, and is there an effective way to cut it at least in half?

And Z... what's a FELK?

Mikey D...

Tropical Z
January 10, 2003, 11:05 PM
"FELK"
Its a new compact polymer 9mm i've seen in a couple of magazines lately.Right now its on the newsstands in one of those mags that has descriptions of all the guns on the market.Cant remember which one though.Maybe someone has it and can tell us.

PCRCCW
January 11, 2003, 02:54 PM
Kahrs? Have a bad trigger? Hmmmmmm WOW...:rolleyes:
The standard travel length is 1/2" ..the Elite is 3/8" and a tad lighter. Wow.....Ive owned a couple of DAO guns and shot alot more and have not liked a trigger more than the Kahrs.......
Ive probably shot a dozen Kahrs...all have been at least in the good trigger, if not ...semi great catagory.....
Hey to each his own.....
For what it is....its consitant, smooth, light and you still can feel it......at first it does seem long.....
Shoot well

Steelharp
January 11, 2003, 03:26 PM
PCRCCW... maybe I've only felt bad examples. They were used... I have not handled a new one. But then again... maybe I don't know s--- from shinola... ya know? :)

Mikey D...

bad_dad_brad
January 11, 2003, 03:57 PM
Steelharp, the Kahr triggers are supposed to feel like really smooth DA revolver triggers. That was the intent of the design.

Kahr also makes an elite trigger which does have less takeup.

But some of the newer Kahrs seem to have a gritty feel which I assume smooths out after use.

telewinz
January 11, 2003, 05:37 PM
Pssssst.......Kel-tec P-11..........Kel-tec P-11:cool: .......Kel-Tec P-11:rolleyes: .................the P-11:scrutiny: ..........don't tell anyone but the pistol is;......Kel-Tec P-11:fire: ............those in the know....Kel-Tec P-11:banghead: Enough Said:)

Alan Fud
January 11, 2003, 06:39 PM
I have to agree with what some others have said ...
http://fud-files.netfirms.com/image/private/guns/f01.jpg
... The 3913TSW is the PERFECT compact 9mm pistol -- small & compact yet still big enough to get a good grip on it (i.e., it isn't a sub-compact like the MK9). I was so impressed with it, that I own three of them ...
http://fud-files.netfirms.com/image/private/guns/f23.jpg

fastbolt
January 11, 2003, 07:25 PM
I'm ashamed to admit that it's been almost 2 months since I last shot my new CS9, and I've only shot my 3913 twice in that time ... My only excuse is that I've been shooting the issued 6906 for a couple of thousand rounds ...

I had to do my "recorded" quarterly qualification with current duty & off duty weapons last week, which meant I had to drag 7 different pistols and a snubnose in ... which is actually less, believe it or not, than I've listed in the past ...

Anyhow, the off duty pistols included the 3913 & CS9. I used a mixture of a lot of 124gr +P, 115gr +P+, 127gr +P+ and 147gr ammunition through both pistols. The distances in the current qualification courses only run from 7 to 11 yards, but they all include "precision" targets at all distances, comprised of small "bullseyes", and head shots on silhouettes, in addition to the usual COM targets ... movement, barricade shooting, etc ... We had a lot of 3-5 yard targets during the previous couple of quarters, but wanted to bring some emphasis back on accurate, "precision" shots this time around ... I know some shooters will question any target closer than 25-50 yards being called a "precision" shot :scrutiny: but when you include short time limits, and other factors, it can be challenging to the "average" L/E shooter. It's all relative ...

Even though I have the "open" Novak Ghost Ring rear sights on these small pistols, they were more than accurate enough to equal the duty pistols regarding accuracy, and they digested all of the +P & +P+ ammunition flawlessly ... again. I also used the 8-round 3913 magazines as reloads for the CS9.

After running through the regular "duty" course with the off duty pistols, I then moved up to shorter distance (1-5 yard) close combat scenarios, with single and multiple targets ... and then used the reduced sized pepper poppers out at 15-25 yards. These little pistols always amaze me with their balance, handling and shooting qualities.

If you want a small, aluminum/stainless steel, single column magazine DA/SA pistol, the current S&W offerings may be just what you're looking for ...

knowledgegreen
January 11, 2003, 09:23 PM
Go with a Sig P-225. It's very coucealable, accurate and reliable.

Zak Smith
February 21, 2003, 11:33 PM
A couple people have mentioned CZ's in this thread. I have both a CZ 75 COMPACT (not the PCR - it's almost the same) and a BHP. Even though the BHP is a "full-size" pistol, I find it easier to conceal due to its short and thin grip than the CZ COMPACT.

In the comparison, I'm using two high-quality leather IWB holsters- Milt Sparks Watch-Six's in both cases.

-z

Akurat
February 22, 2003, 02:08 AM
Frankly, if youve got the money, go with the P7 and feel completely satisfied. If not, I'm a big fan of the FireStorm Mini series...9mm, .40, and now in .45. Inexpensive, but NOT cheap by any stretch of the imagination. I have not found a single thing I do not like about my Mini9. I honestly cannot say that about my other pistols, a Beretta, Springfield, and CZ.

Dr. J
February 22, 2003, 03:42 AM
If you would be interested in a 1911-style, you might consider an STI LS9 - slightly larger than an MK9, but thinner. I think it's the flattest 9mm on the market. Very accurate; very little felt recoil, and the best customer service I've ever encountered.

You can check it out at http://www.stiguns.com/

Tecolote
February 22, 2003, 04:02 AM
If you don't like polymer and you want SA/SA a SIG P239 is hard to beat. They're reliable, light and very accurate. If you prefer something with an external safety look into a SW 3913. Although in my book SW should dump the tactical lettering on the slide because it detracts from a clean design.

Alan Fud,

How did you get the mag to fit flush on your 3913?

Ian11
February 22, 2003, 04:51 AM
Glock 26

Sig P225 or P239

PrudentGT
July 12, 2003, 07:01 PM
Alan, are those three identical pistols? Why?? Unless, of course, you've got a shooter, one to look pretty, and one to scrounge parts from in the distant future... ;)

brsman
August 5, 2005, 11:49 PM
Well it looks like it is time to set the group straight. Everyone seems to have missed the carry gun of all carry guns. Wake up everyone.....It's the Springfield Micro Compact 1911-A1 3" with wilson mags, slim line cocabolo grips and finger grooves. I too had to take the hard road to find this out. Yes I also own Para Ordnance alloy .45, cocabolo & laser grips (great gun), H&K USP Compact .40 cocked & locked (love it), Springfield XD Sub .40, Springfield full size, Glock 22 .40 15 round, Bersa Ultra compact .45, Rock Island 38 super 1911-A1, (great and straight), and I'll be darned if the Micro Comapact is not the best for carry for all reasons conceivable to man. Very accurate and shoots any ammo you can throw at it without a jam. My favorite carry and would be yours too!! Trust me, I wont c..opps -can't say that here. "Try it, you'll love it" and throw all the others back into the safe. A $1200 gun and bought for $715 new. What a deal. Now go get yours-hurry! Your lives are in danger without it.

astraman
August 6, 2005, 12:05 PM
The Star BM is a very compact 9mm, feels great in the hand, is dependable, and also very accurate. cheap too. it is heavy as it's all steel.

fastbolt
August 6, 2005, 02:59 PM
Whoa ... Is this thread really brought back from 2003? Interesting ...

By interesting, I mean that I read what I'd posted a couple of years ago, and then compared it to my current thoughts and experiences.

First, I finally changed out the Novak Ghost Ring rear sights on both my CS9 & 3913, returning to the stock 3-dot sights for the CS9 and installing S&W factory (Trijicon) night sights for my 3913. My reason for this was that I became interested in doing more shooting at 20-35 yards with these small 9mm pistols, and the open Novak Ghost Ring rear sights weren't really intended for common use beyond closer distances. I simply wanted to take more advantage of the inherent potential accuracy of these S&W pistols ... and they haven't disappointed me.

Then, I ordered a TDA (DA/SA) SW99 Compact 9mm pistol. I've done a fair amount of shooting with this pistol in the several months since I bought it ... more than a couple of thousand rounds ... and it's been a very satisfactory off-duty pistol. I've left the sights alone (stock 3-dot), although I'll probbaly get around to ordering some of the Trijicon sights for it, eventually. It's accurate, reliable, lightweight, with an ergonomic grip which suits my hand, and it's barely larger than my G26 (with similar capacity, FWIW).

Looking back at the pistols I was carrying off duty when this thread was started, and what I was doing the bulk of my frequent training with ... and comparing it to now ... when it comes to personally owned pistols, my CS9, G26/27 & SW99c have been getting a lot of use.

modifiedbrowning
August 6, 2005, 03:36 PM
Don't forget the Bersa Thunder Nine compacts.

MR.G
August 6, 2005, 09:48 PM
P-11. I carry one in my front pocket with the flush fitting twelve round magazine loaded with +P ammo. They also take the S&W 59 series fifteen round magazines, which I carry as a backup. For me that is a plus, since my house gun is a model 910S and takes the same magazines.

Pointblank
August 7, 2005, 07:48 AM
Check out the CZ-2075 RAMI. It's not polymer and can be fired double-action or carred 'cocked and locked'.
http://www.cz-usa.com/images/products/48.jpg

armoredman
August 7, 2005, 09:06 AM
The RAMI is alloy framed, but a poly framed version is coming soon! My wife loves her 9mm RAMI.
The PCR/Compact are great CCW choices, but I go one further with the PO1, which many people think can't be concealed well due to the M3 frame rail. No problem...
Odd, no matter what I want in a pistol, CZ makes almost all of them...

albanian
August 7, 2005, 11:17 AM
I have a lot to say on this matter because I 9mm compacts are my favorite type of gun and as a result, I have owned more of them than any other type of gun.

First let me say that there are a few that you should NOT consider for a serious self defense gun. The Kel-Tec, older Taurus Mils, Kahr plastic guns, and Sigmas don't seem reliable enough to put them into a life saving role.

I am a huge Kahr fan so it hurts me to say that the plastic ones are not very good but that is the fact. I have a P-9 that someday may prove itself but after some problems during break-in, my confidence in it is shaken. If you get one, give it at LEAST 200rds to break in and make sure you have no jams. If you have jams, make sure you have shot 200rds with no problems before you even consider carrying it. Don't even think about buying anything from Kel-Tec, their guns are junk period.

Out of all the compact 9mms I have owned, the Kahr K-9 is my favorite. My second fav but far behind the Kahr is the S&W 3913. They are about the same weight but the 3913 is much larger. The Kahr is all steel and the 3913 has an alloy frame. The Kahr sits lower in the hand and is thinner. The Kahr is a little more accurate for me as well. The Kahr is striker fired with every shot being the same pull. This is nice but there is no second strike capability in case of a weak primer hit. The 3913 is a DA/SA with safety/de-cocker. I don't like safeties on defense gun and wish it was just a decocker instead. The Kahr has no levers other the slide release so it is very simple to operate uner stress.

I have had many others but in terms of reliability, accuracy, ergos, sights, trigger, safety, speed, weight ease of carry, the 3913 and the Kahr are my two favorite. Maybe in time the P-9 will prove itself and then I will carry that as it is a lot lighter than the K-9 but I doubt I will ever cotton to plastic.

SouthpawShootr
August 7, 2005, 01:26 PM
Is a new Walther P99 compact planned?

PLANNED? Already out. In fact, I saw them in CDNN's newest online catalog release. I have an SW99 Compact in .40 and I like it fairly well. Recoil is a bit lively.

I like the Glock 26, Beretta 9000s and Kahr K9. Of the three, I find that the K9 is about my favorite. It's flat & small. Hides very easily. Not the lightest gun in the world, but plenty light enough to carry. Heavy enough to use as a regular range gun. Also have a PM9. While I like it, I don't care to stand there on the firing line and plink away all day. Bearish with +P+ loads.

gotime242
August 9, 2005, 07:55 AM
How about a bersa thunder 9mm? Seems to be a nice looking gun, that is of a concelable yet comfortable size. I read they also perform well, and are reliable. Its what ill be looking at when my time to buy comes around.

http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/6919/bersathunder9large5ne.gif

Brian Williams
August 9, 2005, 09:04 AM
Here is my idea of compact and lightweight 9mm, It is a 642 with a 940 cylinder installed. Real light and powerful and moonclips make for a quick reload. it is a real handful with full house +p loads.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=27499&stc=1 http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=27500&stc=1

cuteo100
August 10, 2005, 09:39 AM
For a "true compact 9mm", you can't go wrong with the little pocket Rohrbaugh. It packs 7 bullets and it makes you forget it's even in your pocket. It is a little more expensive than others but you are paying for high-quality: CNC machining from single blocks of stainless steel (17-4), 7075 aircraft aluminum, and carbon fiber. Springs are Wolff's. Although beauty is subjective, it is the most beautiful thing in sight! If you get a chance to see it in person, do it. There is a current 5-month waiting list.

I also love the H&K P7Mx and marvel at it's engineering and beauty. It's is a little too big as a pocket gun for my purpose but a great belt gun.

If I were to carry two guns, it would be the two quality guns mentioned above. Here's some pictures of the Rohrbaugh:

http://rcfalcon.com/stuff/Rohrbaugh/1a.JPG
http://rcfalcon.com/stuff/Rohrbaugh/20.JPG

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