At War on the Border (AZ) (Long, and a Maalox Alert)


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Oatka
December 24, 2002, 07:57 PM
Read and grit your teeth. If the Feds don't take action, there will be an explosion. No wonder they want to disarm the public.

http://www.tucsonweekly.com/tw/2002-12-19/feat.html

At War on the Border

The article is too long unless I split it. Please take the time, to read the link - there are some other good links there also.

First drug dealers, next a wave of illegal immigration, then fear of terrorists--and now the rise of vigilantism. It's just a matter of time until blood is spilled in Cochise or Santa Cruz counties.
By Leo W. Banks

This isn't good. Here's Glenn Spencer, chief of the private group American Border Patrol, standing on a lonesome dirt road near the Mexican border, where all his nightmares about the future of America play out, and he's stuck in a keystone moment.

His ATV, one of the vehicles he'll use to prowl terrain like this for so-called illegal immigrants crossing into this country without proper documents, will have to stay tethered to the flatbed. So much for a nifty photo op.

"I brought the wrong key," Spencer says, embarrassed. "It won't start."

Oh, well. Worse things happen in the border wars every day, and besides, the ATV isn't crucial to Spencer's mission.

But cameras and satellites are, and on this day, the 65-year-old tech-head with lots of money and a powerful anger at this human flood, demonstrates it.

His assistant fires up a generator rigged to a satellite on a trailer behind Spencer's truck, and begins videotaping the scene. Spencer's excitement grows.

"This is it. This is what we've demonstrated we can do." He points to the camera. "Right now, this image is being sent up to our satellite link and out onto the Internet.

"My idea is that if people around the country can go online and watch, in real time, illegals walking right into this country, maybe they'll ask why the government doesn't stop it. What's wrong with a little competition for the [U.S.] Border Patrol, right?"

In Spencer's view, this human traffic is overwhelming the country's health care and education systems. It is importing poverty. It allows within our borders an army whose leaders seek nothing less than the takeover by Mexico of the American Southwest.

"Plato said only the dead have seen an end to war," he says. "I think conflict is coming."

Ultimately, he wants to set up videotaping stations from San Diego to Texas, in the belief that outrage will brushfire around the country, forcing change.

Until then, it's Spencer to the rescue. When he talks about why he moved to Sierra Vista this past September from Sherman Oaks, Calif., he sounds like he's leading a cavalry charge.

"I concluded this summer that California was hopeless," he says. "The left has gotten what they want and the open borders policy is causing a meltdown there. I could either cut and run and go fishing in Idaho, or come to the belly of the beast and tackle this problem head-on."


ON ONE POINT, Spencer is undeniably correct, if behind the times. Conflict has already arrived, and it plays out every day in the mountains, in the pastures and along the roads and trails that crisscross the border country of Cochise and Santa Cruz counties.

Residents along this broad frontier report a skyrocketing number of illegals crossing their land, turning their daily lives into nightmares.

Some describe living under almost wartime conditions, with high levels of stress, fear, sleeplessness and especially frustration at the inability of the Border Patrol, or any law enforcement agency, to help them.

Ranchers say they've been howling about this for years. But no one has paid attention.

Reporters who took up the border chaos story viewed it mainly from one angle, hammered over and over again--the sometimes deadly suffering illegals encounter in their treks across the desert.

But now that a few ranchers, after years of frustration, have formed self-defense groups to protect themselves and their property, reporters won't leave them alone.

Suddenly, they find ranchers interesting--but only as vigilantes, men loaded down with Skoal and ammo, so dangerous they merit a Congressional investigation.

Both images--the harmless illegal and the out-of-control cowboy--contain some truth. But not enough. They're cartoon cutouts, easy renderings that frame a complex problem too simply.

Stuck in the middle--angry as hell, with nowhere to turn and wary for the future--ordinary ranchers and border residents, American citizens, try to hang on amid the chaos.

B.J. Kuykendall shares a ranch with her husband, Tommy, 34 miles north of Douglas. It has been in their family for six generations. She's not certain they'll make it to seven.

Her voice shakes with anger as she describes some of what's happened to her.

Illegals have chased her down the road near her home on foot, and used their vehicles to run hers off the road. On four separate occasions, they've piled boulders and debris across the road, apparently efforts to steal her truck.

They've tried to steal her horses, too. Two months ago, Kuykendall found her dog, a mastiff, poisoned with strychnine. The animal suffered for five hours before dying a horrible death, "for the crime of barking."

One of Kuykendall's neighbors found his dog dead, too, its throat slashed. Another has had four dogs poisoned.

"Every day of our lives, every facet of our lives is threatened," says Kuykendall, an ER nurse. "We can't leave here for any length of time because there might be nothing left when we come back. We're afraid of losing everything if this keeps up."

Kuykendall's neighbor, Gary McBride, tells a similar story. In a 100-day period beginning in January, he recorded 101 calls to the Border Patrol to report illegals crossing his property--not counting cell phone calls.

"I can pretty much guarantee that tonight there'll be 40 of them, maybe a hundred, going up the road here to Highway 80. You think anybody's gonna catch them? Nope.

"Night before last I had one hollering at the back door, trying to get in my house. It's unbelievable.

"What burns our butts is that the Border Patrol won't let agents on the ground do their job, and that's damn sure our biggest problem. They get their asses chewed if they make too many arrests because the chiefs don't want big numbers going to the higher ups.

"We don't lie out here. I'll tell you exactly how it is. These Border Patrol chiefs are the sorriest SOBs I've ever seen."

Not all ranchers suffer the same predicament. Some, even those a few miles from the Kuykendalls and McBrides, are largely exempt from these problems by the grace of geography.

Illegals generally avoid wide-open land, preferring the shelter of trees and deep canyons.

But for those who live on heavy crossing routes, whether outside Douglas, to the west in the Huachuca Mountains, or in the Patagonias near Nogales, the story is the same: Water lines cut, cattle gates left open, pastures and canyons full of garbage and human waste.

"They use the canyons as toilets," says Carrol Bercich, who lives near Parker Canyon Lake. "We've got three semi-loads of garbage to haul away right now."

Ranchers also report a change in the illegals they encounter. Five years ago, a group might approach and say, "Excuse us, Señor, could we work for water or food?"

Now, many demand food and water, demand rides and show a profound lack of respect for people and property.

"Every fence they hit they destroy, and that was before they discovered wire cutters," says Anna Magoffin, a Douglas area rancher. "Last year was the worst. We had huge groups, but the destruction, I mean, we still haven't gotten the fences back up. Every acre of the ranch is impacted."

McBride says their level of aggression has increased markedly.

"They make remarks, give you the finger and won't go away," he says. "Sometimes they go into your house and you have to pull guns to get them out."

Numerous ranchers contacted for this story wouldn't speak publicly.

They're afraid of being branded vigilantes and targeted in a possible police investigation on the one hand. And on the other, they fear reprisal by Mexican gangs that operate drug rings and increasingly powerful and nasty people-smuggling rings.

A few ranchers said they've received such threats and are clamming up for good.

Arizona ranchers have always carried guns, mostly for snakes, and to put down injured animals.

But in this siege atmosphere--with law enforcement response times ranging from 20 minutes to forget about it--ranchers now carry weapons for self-defense.

As one said, "Before, maybe a .22 plinker. Now we carry .38s and .357s."

[snip]

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SIC TRANSIT GLORIA MUNDI
December 25, 2002, 12:13 AM
Hate to be mean-spirited, but what would happen if several of these "migrants" were to disappear. Would anyone notice?

BudS
December 25, 2002, 03:02 AM
It's about time we, as U.S. citizens, stand up to defend our lands and properties, as it seems our government isn't taking their role seriously. I loudly applaud those in AZ who are doing this and it should spread to every border state as well!:mad:

What did that character say in a movie years ago? "I'm mad as hell and I'm not taking it any more!" Well, I feel the same. Arabs are crossing the border along with Hispanics, taking advantage of like skin tones. I could go on...

Want some real hair-raising news? Go to www.sierratimes.com & read up on illegal aliens.

No one asks me why I carry open nowadays. I also CCW, if the climate for open carry isn't conducive. I've read accounts of older folks actually being beaten up, raped & robbed by illegal aliens. And Vincente Fox expects us (U.S.) to lay down & let 'em come? Yeah, the politicians would take notice, since some "easy" votes, although illegal, would die!

Finch
December 25, 2002, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by SIC TRANSIT GLORIA MU
Hate to be mean-spirited, but what would happen if several of these "migrants" were to disappear. Would anyone notice?

Wink Wink...
I'm with ya on that. This is getting kind of tired, and our government needs to do something about it. What is preventing middle eastern terrorist group from walking across our southern border, if millions of mexicans can do it?

QuickDraw
December 25, 2002, 04:44 PM
This could escalate to the first war on American soil in
a long time.

wingman
December 25, 2002, 05:04 PM
U.S. considers adding legal workers from Mexico to Social Security system

Leigh Strope, AP - 12/20/2002

WASHINGTON - The U.S. administration is considering an agreement with Mexico that would add thousands of Mexicans working legally in the United States to the Social Security system, making them eligible for benefits.

"This is an issue that is being explored on a technical level," White House spokeswoman Claire Buchan said Thursday. "No decisions have been made."

Such an agreement would not be unusual. The United States already has 20 existing pacts with other countries, ranging from Canada to South Korea. The Social Security Administration pays 94,022 beneficiaries from other countries an average of 162 dollars a month, for a total of 184 million dollars a year.

An agreement with Mexico could add 162,000 beneficiaries in the first five years, according to The Washington Post, which first reported the story in Thursday's editions, citing an anonymous House Republican aide. The total cost could be as much as 1 billion dollars a year.

Jim Courtney, a spokesman for the Social Security Administration, said the agency had no estimates on cost or how many people would be affected.

"There aren't numbers yet because our actuaries continue to do the research," he said. "There are no preliminary numbers. The numbers are a work in progress."

But concern is growing on Capitol Hill that any agreement with Mexico would add a huge burden to the Social Security system, which already is facing big shortfalls in the next 15 to 20 years.

"We are concerned about the sheer magnitude of the agreement," the House Republican aide said.

Nearly 46 million people currently receive 372 billion dollars in Social Security benefits.

AZTOY
December 25, 2002, 06:55 PM
Hate to be mean-spirited, but what would happen if several of these "migrants" were to disappear. Would anyone notice?

The migrants would just be food for some of the amimals. The coyotes will clean up the mess.;)

Cal4D4
December 25, 2002, 08:12 PM
This is a problem for our leaders to get busy with. There is absolutely no reason to leave our border citizens unprotected or our job structure corrupted by this flow. That said, I doubt if there are many here who could draw down on some dirt poor campesino family. Fox and company are the ones who need to be spanked. Our boy Bush needs to stop appeasing and start leading.

PDshooter
December 25, 2002, 09:16 PM
Being a member of Illinois Guard. I've said that we should be doing our 2 weeks A.T on the borders!:D That would be some "REAL"training!!!!!

But it's just not P.C:mad:
The Dems&Rep. Don't want to lose votes! From you know who! :mad:

Shoot,Shovel,Shut-up

Blackhawk
December 25, 2002, 09:42 PM
So, anybody think the new Homeland Defense Agency (or whatever it's called) is going to address this problem?

Illegals have been part of the southwestern culture for more than a century, but they've been polite and industrious. It seems that they're now just interested in getting to the land of handouts and welfare. Pity....! :(

nemesis
December 25, 2002, 10:09 PM
There is a possiblity that 30 to 40% of all the people living in this border valley are here illegally. That's out of a population of less than 1.5 million but it's still a lot.

What you hear and what you read do not convey what is happening here. We are importing an entire class of people who do not recognize the United States of America and their alleigance is not to this nation. They care about us not one whit and they do not obey our laws. Why should they. Rob someone, shoot someone, have an uninsured accident and you need only run over the Mexican Border. You can return anytime you wish. The Border Patrol, God bless them, can't stop you.

Huntersun
December 25, 2002, 10:16 PM
http://www.ranchrescue.com/index.htm


Read up on what the locals are doing.

denfoote
December 25, 2002, 10:32 PM
So, anybody think the new Homeland Defense Agency (or whatever it's called) is going to address this problem?

Surely, you jest!! The purpose of Homeland Security is to remove rights from Americans!!

G-Raptor
December 26, 2002, 12:30 AM
This will be taken seriously when a number of "immigrant" bodies start showing up in the desert. I'm not suggesting that would be an appropriate response...but, it will happen.

ahenry
December 26, 2002, 01:20 AM
:rolleyes:

Blackhawk
December 26, 2002, 01:36 AM
Hey, Dennis! Glad you showed up! :D

That area's right in your back yard, so to speak. (Isn't Buckeye sort of north of Phoenix and sort of west of Wickenberg?)

I spent some time training at Ft. Huachuca, and flew all over that area north of the border. From Sierra Vista south to the border, it was EXTREMELY desolate.

And surely, I was jesting.... :)

Cal4D4
December 26, 2002, 01:53 AM
With the leadership of Presidente Fox, the illegal subculture is learning to flex their legal muscle. Social security bennies, a political lobby, etc. When they learn how to fully exercise their labor rights and entitlements is when this will really get sour. Class action litigation anyone?

Southla1
December 26, 2002, 11:10 AM
"Class action litigation anyone?"


Caliber 30 litigation would work much better. Same litigation that people like Bowie, Crockett, Bonham, Travis, Houston, etc. used back in 1836. Some folks only understand this kind of litigation.

Bottom Gun
December 26, 2002, 12:20 PM
My home is 15 miles from the border and the situation is rapidly deteriorating. It's fast becoming a war zone.

It's true the attitudes of the illegals have changed. They have lost all respect for property and have become extremely rude and very aggressive toward Americans.

I used to carry extra water jugs in my truck to share with them whenever I'd encounter them, which was rarely.
These days, I encounter several groups daily and instead of extra water, I carry an AR with extra ammo.

These illegals are fast approaching vermin status here. The drug runners are coming across the line at will and are armed.
You won't see any Border Patrol around here. It's way too hot for them.
Something bad is going to happen here real soon.

ahenry
December 26, 2002, 12:36 PM
These illegals are fast approaching vermin status here. The drug runners are coming across the line at will and are armed. You won't see any Border Patrol around here. It's way too hot for them. Something bad is going to happen here real soon. Mind if I ask you were you are specifically? If you prefer not divulging that I understand, but feel free to PM or email it if you would rather do that than post it publicly...

AZTOY
December 26, 2002, 01:18 PM
ahenry

I live 5 mile from the border in Arivaca AZ. I have to carry a gun all the time just to be safe. You can run into 20 to 30 illegals on the roads or in the back country. Some are nice guys ,but other will steel any thing thay can get there hands on. I have had freinds that lost there trucks ,cars and GUNS. The guy next door lost his dog from illegals. Plus my fence gets cut all the time. The border patrol is out numbered and can't stop all of them.

So i will protected my house and my land ................

Cal4D4
December 26, 2002, 01:23 PM
Southla1:

It's the illegals that are going to sue us. The lawsuit will involve Johnny Cochran or his equiv. repping Juan Doe versus the restaurant and construction industries with the gov't tossed in to boot. Settlement will be precedent setting.

spacemanspiff
December 26, 2002, 01:55 PM
if the border patrols arent doing their jobs, and citizens lives/property is endangered, why should there be any question about deadly force being used?

how is theft of property, home invasions, etc any different along the border than it is elsewhere across the nation? why should the response be different?



i'm still for planting landmines all along the border.

wingman
December 26, 2002, 02:12 PM
FAQs about Immigration and US Population Growth

Translate



Growth advocates say that people are needed to keep the economy moving, but what is the main cause of...

* Traffic congestion
* Overcrowded schools
* Energy shortages
* Air pollution
* Loss of open space
* Overburdened infrastructure
* Wage depression
* Deteriorating quality of life?


... the main cause is RAPID POPULATION GROWTH!



• What are the components of U.S. population growth?
Natural increases (birth minus deaths) and immigration are the two contributing factors to U.S. population growth.


• Why should we reduce immigration?
According to the Census Bureau figures, more than two-thirds of current and future population growth is the result of immigration. Dr. Steven Camarota, Director of Reseach for the Center for Immigration Studies, wrote in a January 2001 paper: “Immigration has become the determinate factor in population growth. The 11.2 million immigrants who indicated they arrived between 1990 and 2000 plus the 6.4 million children born to immigrants in the United States during the 1990s are equal to almost 70 percent of U.S. population growth over the last 10 years.”

Reducing immigration therefore is necessary to curb population growth.


• How fast has the immigrant population grown?
The immigrant population in the United States has nearly tripled since 1970, due to legislation passed since 1965 to increase immigration.


• What is the impact of population growth on our environment?
The California Department of Water Resources has forecast serious water shortages 10 years from now, due to population growth, most of which comes from immigration. Continued population growth directly threatens biodiversity and causes species extinction, loss of farmland and open space, and general degradation of environmental quality.


• Will building more roads or schools, or improved mass transportation solve many of our problems?
No. There are no long-term growth management plans that can cope with unlimited population growth.


• What is the impact of rapid population growth on our public schools?
In 1996, the U.S. Department of Education estimated that 2.6 million new students will be added to America's public schools (K-12) for this coming decade. A study by the California Department of Education of the state's public schools revealed that one student in four could not speak English well enough to understand what was going on in the classroom. The school districts of Minneapolis/ St. Paul, Nashville and North Carolina have student bodies in which respectively 80, 85 and 150 languages are spoken.


• Does immigration only affect the border states?
Large numbers of immigrants from many countries have settled in many Midwestern states. The Detroit Metropolitan area has one of the largest concentrations of Arabs outside the Middle East.


• Why is it necessary to reduce immigration in order to achieve welfare and health care reform?
Based on the March 1998 Current Population Survey conducted by the Census Bureau, the poverty rate for immigrants is 50 percent higher than that for the native-born. In 1996, welfare and Medicaid provided to elderly non-citizen legal immigrants alone cost American taxpayers more than $10 billion dollars. The high poverty rate of immigrants will increase the number of residents without health care and needing welfare, making health care and welfare reform much more difficult and expensive to address.


• How does high immigration contribute to our Social Security problems?
Because of the poverty rate and the large numbers of unskilled and semi-skilled immigrants entering the U.S. every year, a tremendous burden is placed on government budgets, greatly depleting the Social Security Trust Fund in the long run.


• What is immigration's impact on American workers?
The National Academy of Science reported in 1997 that from 1980 to 1995, 44 percent of the decline in the real wages of high school dropouts resulted from immigration. The study conducted by UC Davis Professor Norman Matloff also concludes that large numbers of older immigrant and U.S-born computer scientists are displaced by newly arrived foreign-born computer programmers.


• What groups are most hurt economically by high levels of immigration?
Pro-immigrant Professor Paul Ong of UCLA has said, “In terms of the adverse impact on wage and employment, the adverse impact will be most pronounced on minorities and established immigrants...”

AZTOY
December 26, 2002, 02:40 PM
spacemanspiff
if the border patrols arent doing their jobs, and citizens lives/property is endangered, why should there be any question about deadly force being used?
Why because this is Arizona, not the White House. If thay were going over the White House fence deadly force would be fine!!:mad:

Southla1
December 26, 2002, 02:45 PM
"It's the illegals that are going to sue us. The lawsuit will involve Johnny Cochran or his equiv. repping Juan Doe "

If there is no Juan Doe or Johnny Roach er Cochran or his equiv. there can be no suit. As I said Caliber .30 litigation. Sometimes even those in the right must do slightly illegal things to preserve their God given rights.

ahenry
December 26, 2002, 04:32 PM
I’m pretty up on the conditions of things on the border, but thanks for clarifying. I will always stand behind anybody that uses whatever force is necessary to protect life, limb and property. My question to Bottom Gun was to know the specific area where he thought it was “too hot” for the BP. However, since you said that you live in Arivaca, I thought I’d mention that that is in the Tucson sector for the Border Patrol, and is currently being staffed with new agents (so is Yuma and San Diego), and it will probably continue being staffed through January and then sporadically after that while Texas is staffed again. The Tucson sector covers most of AZ (something like 500 miles) and has stations in Ajo, Casa Grande, Douglas, Naco, Nogales, Sonoita, Tucson, and Wilcox. There are something like 1000 agents stationed there (any give shift probably has about a third that are “out and about”) so thats not many people to cover a large area. I don’t know exactly how many new agents are going to Tucson right now (actually most are probably in the academy now) but it should be a fairly substantial number arriving during the 2003. I just thought I’d toss that out to back up what you were saying about the BP being overwhelmed, and to mention that attempts are being made to fix it. In addition, for those that care, the number of apprehensions has increased immensely from a couple years ago (most places have well over 1000% increase). Most people agree (on all sides of the coin) that a large portion of this increase in the past few years is from a greater and greater number of Mexicans crossing the border (rather than more apprehensions solely from more agents, or better methods or whatnot). Considering the slowness with which the gov’t typically moves, I’d say its fairly impressive that they have as many new agents there (and ones that are coming) as they do. I know this is not going to be a popular, but give it some time. Continue to protect yourself and your property (just as anybody anywhere should), but don’t worry too much. Its being worked on...

coati
December 26, 2002, 05:02 PM
Had some friends in Cochise, AZ (near the Willcox playa) that also reported being kind to illegals years ago with mutual respect. They have since passed on, and it seems that the "soft border" of years ago must also pass.

AZTOY
December 26, 2002, 05:29 PM
ahenry

You are right the border patrol is trying but there is too many illegals coming cross the border.
But i would like to know how a barb wire fence is going to keep the illegals out. Most of the so called border is a barb wire fence.
If the gov’t would build a 10 feet wall this would help. But thay will not do that , we need more 10 million doller airplanes.:mad:

Also i am glad that the Tucson Boarder Patrol is geting more men!

Waitone
December 26, 2002, 05:47 PM
--INS knows what's going on
--BP knows what's going on
--Local government knows what's going on
--Federales at all levels knows what going on
--National politicians know what's going on
--Local landowners know what's going on
--National Park Service knows what's going on
--Local hospitals know what's going on
--Local LE know what's going on
--Local media knows what's going on
--National media knows what's going on

So with all the knowledge of the situation at hand, how come it is no one seems able to take action to remediate the situation? Its got something to do with power, sex or money. Yet, the ruling class refuses to take action.

Human nature dictates vigelantism will take place. Unfortunately, someone will die, someone will get hurt. The problem is it will be the Honkey-American on the border who will pay the price. This mess has to get visible and public toute suite because the ruling class will crucify anyone remotely associated with attempts to stem the flood.

I have long predicte the third American Civil War (the first American Civil War was what is erroneously call the Revolutionary War) will start in the West over land usage and water rights. Looks like I'm wrong. It'll start over illegal immigration and malfeasance by public officials. Better set up legal defense committees now because the federales in particular will move fast to prosecute in a show trial.

Nothing good will come of this mess.

ahenry
December 26, 2002, 06:00 PM
Many things are indeed being done. To your way of thinking the proper things are not being done. However, to my way of thinking some of the proper things are being done (with the omission of perhaps the most important part). Just because you don’t like the solution doesn’t mean the "problem" is being ignored.

wingman
December 26, 2002, 06:37 PM
Tired & poor
The bankrupt arguments for mass, unskilled immigration
By Steven A. Camarota
National Review, September 3, 2001

Talks in August involving Secretary of State Powell, Attorney General
Ashcroft, and their Mexican counterparts may have produced the broad
outline of an immigration agreement. It would involve a two-step amnesty,
first rechristening the approximately 4 million Mexicans illegally in the
U.S. as "temporary" workers, then giving them permanent residence after a
period of indenture of perhaps three to five years. Even more workers would
then be imported from Mexico as "temporary" workers, and would eventually
receive green cards.

Most critics of this amnesty have focused on the fact that it rewards
lawbreakers and mocks the law-abiding; others have argued that there is no
moral reason for singling out Mexicans at the expense of other
nationalities. While these are reasonable objections, few commentators have
asked the larger question: Is mass unskilled immigration from Mexico really
good for the U.S.? In a new study, the Center for Immigration Studies uses
the latest Census Bureau data to examine the prevalent assumptions
surrounding this issue-and they turn out to be myths.

The ur-justification for unskilled immigration is, "Who else will clean my
pool?" And it contains a kernel of truth, with regard to Mexican
immigration. About two-thirds of all Mexican immigrants are high-school
dropouts, and only 4 percent have a college degree. During the 1990s,
Mexican immigration increased the number of dropouts in the U.S. workforce
by 11 percent, while increasing the supply of all other workers by only
half a percentage point. Thus, the effect of Mexican immigration on wages
is confined to unskilled workers. Since the vast majority of natives have
completed high school and are employed in higher-skilled occupations, most
natives don't face significant job competition from Mexican immigrants.

But there's still a problem: More than 10 million adult native-born
American workers lack a high-school education, and they are in direct
competition with unskilled immigrants. The vast majority of Mexican
immigrants work in such jobs: busboy, pool cleaner, and so on. These jobs
are still overwhelmingly done by natives. The myth that immigrants only
take jobs no one else wants persists primarily because middle-class
Americans view most of these jobs as something they certainly would not
want to do.

The increase in the supply of unskilled labor brought about by Mexican
immigration reduced wages for high-school dropouts by about 5 percent in
the 1990s-not so much because immigrants work for less and undercut natives
(though that does happen), but rather because lower wages are an
unavoidable byproduct of significantly increasing the supply of unskilled
labor. It's basic economics: Increase the supply of something, and the
price will fall.

The chief problem with lower wages for unskilled workers is that they are
already the lowest paid; one need not be a liberal to acknowledge that
beggaring the poor may contribute to social disharmony. It's true that
these wage losses do not vanish into thin air: Lower wages for the poor
should result in lower prices for consumers. But the savings are
infinitesimal, precisely because unskilled workers earn such low wages to
begin with. High-school dropouts account for less than 4 percent of total
economic output. Thus, if Mexican immigration reduces wages for dropouts by
5 percent, prices for consumers are lowered by less than two-tenths of 1
percent. It is simply not possible for a high-tech economy like ours to
derive large benefits from unskilled immigration.

Another myth has to do with welfare. While it is certainly true that the
vast majority of Mexican immigrants come to work and not to use government
services, there's also no question that very many end up using government
services anyway. Even after welfare reform, 31 percent of all Mexican
households in the U.S. use at least one major welfare program-double the 15
percent rate for natives. Clearly, one of the unintended consequences of an
amnesty would almost certainly be to increase welfare costs still further.

Heavy use of welfare by Mexican immigrants stems not from moral defects or
a lack of jobs, but rather from the very low incomes of Mexican immigrants.
The modern American economy offers very limited opportunities for those
with little education, and so poor workers or their children are often
eligible for welfare programs, such as food stamps, public housing, or
Medicaid.

Mexican immigrants also pay very little in taxes. By design, those with
lower incomes pay much less in taxes than middle- and upper-class workers.
This means that even if Mexican immigrants used welfare at the same rate as
natives, they would still be a substantial drain on public coffers because
their tax payments are dramatically lower.

While there is debate among researchers on the fiscal effects of immigrants
overall, there is absolute consensus that immigrants with little education
are a huge drain on the public budget. We at the Center for Immigration
Studies estimate that the average Mexican immigrant will use $55,200 more
in public services during his lifetime than he pays in taxes. In effect,
Mexican immigration acts as a subsidy to businesses that employ unskilled
workers, holding down labor costs while taxpayers pick up the tab for
providing services to a much larger poor population. It's like any other
subsidy: Businesses that receive it want it to continue, but for the nation
as a whole, it's a bad deal.

Although the economic arguments against unskilled immigration are
overwhelming, many advocates of an amnesty still defend it because they
feel there is no alternative. But in fact, the problem isn't nearly as
intractable as it may seem. The INS estimates that each year, 150,000
illegal aliens leave the country on their own, another 200,000 get green
cards as part of the normal "legal" immigration process, 50,000 illegals
are deported, and about 20,000 die. In sum, the illegal-alien population
decreases by at least 400,000 people each year.

Of course, something like 600,000 new illegals arrive annually, and thus
the total illegal population continues to grow. But the numbers leaving the
illegal population are still huge; if we significantly reduce the number of
new illegal aliens entering the country and increase (even if only
modestly) the number who go home, the problem will largely take care of
itself over time.

How do we do this? In the past, our efforts to control illegal immigration
have focused almost exclusively on the border. While much remains to be
done in this area, the real key to reducing illegal immigration is to cut
illegals off from jobs. Unfortunately, the 1986 ban on hiring illegals has
never been enforced. Although highly regarded pilot programs already exist,
Congress has never provided funding to develop a national verification
system that would enable employers to check quickly whether new hires have
the right to work. Moreover, Congress has refused to increase funding for
workplace enforcement, so we are left with an almost comical situation in
which 300 INS inspectors attempt to enforce the ban on hiring the millions
of illegals now in the country.

An integrated program of workplace enforcement and border control would
cause a steady decline in the illegal population. Even the potential
economic dislocation caused by such a policy would be minimal, since there
is no possibility that all illegals will magically disappear overnight.
This approach would increase wages for the poor, spur productivity gains,
and protect American sovereignty. An amnesty, even if it's dressed up as a
guest-worker program, can achieve none of these ends.

Gordon
December 26, 2002, 06:55 PM
Ahenry: please respond to the current plans the border patrol has concerning incursions/covering fire by Mexican official or quasi official vehicles and persons. Or maybe we should just take off our tin foil hats because it never happens? I'll bet $ the response is to A): call senior on radio who B): calls back to DC who C): calls back to say run like rabbits and say it never happened like ostriches. Do I have to post the structure of Govt. provision that says "shall protect the borders" would it help?:confused:

AZTOY
December 26, 2002, 06:59 PM
Grijalva: Have FBI probe alleged militia-racist link
Rep.-elect denounces patrols; they call his bigotry charges 'lies'
Tucson Citizen
Dec. 19, 2002

Vigilante group hurting towns' images, business, residents say
Congressman-elect Raúl Grijalva says his first official act will be to ask the FBI to investigate alleged links between civilian militias in southern Arizona and white supremacist groups.
"If you shine the light on the cockroaches, they don't like it," Grijalva said at a press conference yesterday hosted by Coalicion de Derechos Humanos, a group that advocates for illegal immigrants.
"The more we ignore it, the more it's going to fester," said Grijalva, who will be the first representative from the new Congressional District 7, which stretches from Tucson to Yuma.
Grijalva also said he wants a "declarative condemnation" of the militias by the U.S. Border Patrol.
Border Patrol spokesman Ryan Scudder said the militias have the same right to operate and to speak their mind as Derechos Humanos. However, Border Patrol doesn't issue opinions on specific groups.
Grijalva spoke out against the Sierra Vista-based American Border Patrol, Texas-based Ranch Rescue and the Civil Homeland Defense, organized by Tombstone newspaper publisher Chris Simcox.
Grijalva said he believes all three organizations are racist.
A report released yesterday by the Tucson-based Border Action Network alleges that groups such as the American Border Patrol are local fronts for neo-Nazi groups such as the St. Louis-based Council of Conservative Citizens.
The report says such groups provided funding to local vigilante groups but no specific amounts are given.
Glenn Spencer of the American Border Patrol said claims that his group is connected to racist organizations are "absolute lies."

Simcox challenged Grijalva to "prove it," and said the congressman-elect should instead investigate "why the borders are wide open."
Simcox said Grijalva is trying to deflect attention from the real issue, which is how illegal immigrants are sticking taxpayers with the bill for emergency health care and other social services.
Ranch Rescue spokesman Jack Foote couldn't be reached for comment.
Ranch Rescue has sent armed patrols onto private property in southern Arizona, and Simcox said his group plans to start patrolling private and public property along the border next month.
The American Border Patrol uses electronic equipment to monitor illegal immigrant traffic along the border. Isabel Garcia of Derechos Humanos said that group may be working with the U.S. Border Patrol because two former U.S. patrol agents now work for the American Border Patrol.
Scudder denied there was a link.
"We don't have anything to do with them," Scudder said. "They're retired agents. They have no access, they have no official connections with the U.S. Border Patrol."
Grijalva said his second priority in Washington will be asking for congressional hearings on border problems that would be held near the border.
Grijalva, a Democrat, toured southern Arizona's border with Mexico earlier this month with three other members of Arizona's congressional delegation: U.S. Sens. John McCain and Jon Kyl and U.S. Rep. Jim Kolbe, all Republicans.
The group afterward agreed border issues must receive higher priority in Washington.
Grijalva said yesterday that a statement from President Bush denouncing the militias also would "do a great deal."
http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/local/12_19_02grijalva.html

Gordon
December 26, 2002, 07:55 PM
Any ideas how we can shine the light on this cock roach of a politician? Any body know anything we can get on his connection? This is the place for pysops guys.

rock jock
December 26, 2002, 08:07 PM
ahenry,

I would still be interested in hearing from you on how you claim to be so knowledgeable on this subject (per the recent TFL thread). My PM box is empty.

- rock

Jim Diver
December 26, 2002, 08:29 PM
If the feds won't do the job they are sworn to do then it's time for the people to do the job.

After all, this country does not belong to the feds, it belongs to us!

Southla1
December 26, 2002, 08:54 PM
Gordon, look at the name of this so called representative ..........
Raúl Grijalva.

It's probably his cousins that are running illegals across the border.

rock jock
December 26, 2002, 09:10 PM
Southla,

That's not fair. There are plenty of Hispanics that are for strict enforcement of immigration laws. The trouble is, we only hear from the liberal side.

444
December 26, 2002, 09:29 PM
I realize that this is no surprise to anyone, but a couple years ago, I was javelina hunting just North of the Mexican border in Arizona. As I walked through the desert I would see groups of maybe 5-10 illegals running through the desert. Over the course of one day I am sure I saw several hundred. Every wash contained empty cans and human refuse from illegals camping there. The whole imagration problem really hit home for me. If I saw hundreds in one day, then there must have been thousands or even possibly tens of thousands of illegals crossing all along the Mexican border in just that one day. That night we heard low flying airplanes passing overhead. The next day we were talking to a border patrolman and asked him what they were doing with the airplanes, his answer was that they didn't have airplanes in that area last night.
As much as we all talk about this problem, I don't think it is posible for someone who has not been in that area to believe the scope of the problem. I am still amazed.
That next day I encountered a group of illegals drinking from a cattle trough. They had gallon plastic jugs they were filling up that were filled with algae. One of them spoke English and said, You know what were are doing here ? And I said, I think I have a pretty good idea. He told me that they were lost and out of water and food. I took him back to my truck and re-supplied him. I am all for stopping the flood of illegals, but I am not going to let someone die of exposure in the desert. The area where I was was very remote. It was like 30 miles to the nearest gas station. This brings up another point. I can't fault guys like this from leaving Mexico and trying to come to the US. Mexico has everything going for it in terms of natural resources, beautiful resort property etc and a government that is squandering it's resources at every opportunity. These people have no future and are lucky to survive from day to day. Of course they want to come here and lead a decent life. But by the same token I am tired of the US being looked upon to solve all the problems of every other country in the world. As harsh as it is, these people have to stay in their own country and make due as best as they can. We have enough problems of our own.

Gordon
December 26, 2002, 09:45 PM
Hey my wife is a Mexican! Her father volunteered from TJ and fought in WW2 for his citizenship. He was in Patton's tank corp thru europe. He worked for General Dynamics for 33 years and retired very wealthy and a staunch Republican, not bad for orphaned shoe shine boy. He says any immigrant should do it right and by the holy kahki so do I. Any one else is an invader and should be treated as such. End of story, anyone who disagrees should be deported to his choice of workers paradise. That son of bitch Arizona politician should be target of our investigation anyone who thinks like that must be a crook!:mad:

ahenry
December 26, 2002, 09:55 PM
Ahenry: please respond to the current plans the border patrol has concerning incursions/covering fire by Mexican official or quasi official vehicles and persons. Or maybe we should just take off our tin foil hats because it never happens? I'll bet $ the response is to A): call senior on radio who B): calls back to DC who C): calls back to say run like rabbits and say it never happened like ostriches. Do I have to post the structure of Govt. provision that says "shall protect the borders" would it help? How about the words of an Agent that dealt with this very question? “ With regard to these incursions, a few months ago we caught five Mexican soldiers that had entered into the US. I work at the Campo Border Patrol Station here at the San Diego sector, which is approximatelly one hour away from the city of San Diego. This particular incident took place in what was then our zone 28. The agent who confronted these four soldiers saw footprints leading north from the border. He tracked them for a few minutes before he spotted four Mexican soldiers in Desert camouflage uniform armed with G3 automatic rifles and sidearms. The agent told them to drop their weapons, they refused and the agent drew his weapon and pointed it at them.They did the same to him with their weapons. They started arguing back and forth and the Mexican soldiers started to back away toward the border, still refusing to yield. The only thing that caused them to see things our way was the arrival of back-up units...we took them to our station...”

Rock_jock,

Sorry about that. In the hustle and bustle of Christmas I forgot to send you a PM. I just sent you one though (here on THR, not TFL). My bad.

Gordon
December 26, 2002, 10:04 PM
Ahenry, your last post was the most exciting post I have ever read on any forum and should be investigated at presidential level and sung to the rafters far and loud- WE ARE AT WAR WITH MEXICO!Unless prven otherwise it sounds like a probe. G-3's? sounds like we must have Apaches and c130-GUNSHIPS WITH FLIR IN ORBIT along border.:cool:

ahenry
December 26, 2002, 10:10 PM
Oh, I wouldn’t call it war. The Mexican military is not doing anything at the behest of their gov’t. They're just running drugs most the time. It wouldn’t hurt things to have a politician tell Fox where he can shove it, but war this sure ain’t.


Besides, it was even odds at 5 Mexican Special Forces soldiers to 1 American. :D

Bottom Gun
December 26, 2002, 10:29 PM
Ahenry,

Sorry for the delay in responding. I was taking care of some of my chores.

To answer your question, I live in a rural area of Santa Cruz County roughly 12 miles from Parker Canyon Lake. The nearest towns are Sonoita and Sierra Vista.
This used to be one of the last unspoiled areas in Arizona. It's mostly National Forest and very rich in game and wildlife. It's changing now though partly from population growth but mostly as a result of the high volume of illegal traffic through here. It was quite different when I discovered it 25 years ago.

FWIW,
Aside from being Mexican, Raúl Grijalva's claim to fame was serving as a member of the Tucson city council. He wasn't worth a damn then either.

The people around here aren't racist. heck, quite a few are of Mexican descent themselves.
My ex wife is Mexican as are some of my close friends. We have no problems with the Mexican people.
What we don't like here are thieves, arsonists and criminals and that seems to be what the majority coming across the line are these days.
Some people lost their homes here when the Mojados started the forest fires this summer. I was lucky and even though I was forced to evacuate as a result of the Ryan fire, I didn't lose anything.

Far as I'm concerned, the Border Patrol talks a lot about solving the problem, but that's as far as it goes. We called them repeatedly to report groups of illegals and even gave them locations of where the illegals set up camp for the night. The results? Same as always. . . . .nothing at all.
They weren't even interested when we called them after finding a stolen car full of drugs in the forest.

It really is looking like we local residents can't depend upon the government for any help at all.

Gordon
December 26, 2002, 10:40 PM
But ya can go to my Bar B Que and shoot down in Douglas on May first 2003. Contact gordonhulme@aol.com before 1 feb03 for directions. Long range shoot, fun house shoot in abandoned adobes, night vision shoot . On a major point of ingress of invaders.(bet none will show for the 3 days of shoot).:)

Jim Diver
December 26, 2002, 11:44 PM
Clearly this is going to blow up soon. What do you do when your own government refuses to defend you as required by constitutional law?

wingman
December 26, 2002, 11:54 PM
"Oh, I wouldn’t call it war. The Mexican military is not doing anything at the behest of their gov’t."



Your kidding, right.?
Not a war just a police action.!!!



Border Patrol agent shot near Fort Hancock

Jim Conley
El Paso Times
A Border Patrol agent from Fort Hancock was shot in the leg about 4:20 p.m. Saturday by someone on the Mexican side of the Rio Grande while agents were pursuing smugglers 27 miles southeast of the Ysleta Port of Entry, Border Patrol officials said.

The female agent, whose name was not released, was expected to be released Saturday night from Thomason Hospital, El Paso Border Patrol spokesman Doug Mosier said.

The shooting took place after smugglers in a pickup "carrying at least 500 pounds of marijuana" were spotted, he said.

A pursuit began "and the smugglers drove their vehicle into the water and fled into Mexico on foot."

Even though the smugglers reached the safety of Mexico, Mosier said, "apparently a number of assailants were waiting on the Mexico side, and a sustained barrage of gunfire occurred."

The agent was struck by a bullet that penetrated the vehicle, he said. Agents returned fire.

This was thought to be the first shooting of an El Paso sector Border Patrol agent in about 13 years.

On Sept. 12, two El Paso FBI agents were severely beaten by train bandits during a sting operation in the Sunland Park-Anapra area.

Jim Diver
December 27, 2002, 12:41 AM
Oh, I wouldn’t call it war.

Then what is it when official forces from country A deliberatly cross a border into country B and engage country B's forces and civilians with deadly force?

Answer: Act of war.

What is it when country A sends massive numbers of people (deliberatly and illegaly) into part of country B in an attempt to bring that part of country B back into country A's control?

Answer: Invasion.

WilderBill
December 27, 2002, 03:03 AM
The problem isn't just along the border. Here in the DFW area, many miles from the border, there are a lot of places where there is just no point in even speaking English.
The county hospital has been just about broke for years now and that's only on measure of the impact of this invasion.
Maybe we should all go to Gordons shoot and see if any voluteer targets creep up in the desert at night.

Gordon
December 27, 2002, 09:46 PM
I dont want to shoot no poor Mojados like 444 described, I'd do (and done) the same. That said I'd shoot any Mexicans carrying G-3's and say "alto" later. We will NOT be man hunting. Just a patriotic armed presense to stir up our gubmint to action-one way or another!:cool:

AZTOY
December 28, 2002, 12:35 AM
Gordon


Who is have the party?

Gordon
December 28, 2002, 12:50 AM
Ke paso?:confused:

MMcCall
December 28, 2002, 08:58 PM
Mexico bypassing
U.S. sovereignty?
Forms 'representative' council north of border to assist emigres

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: December 27, 2002
5:00 p.m. Eastern


By Jon Dougherty
© 2002 WorldNetDaily.com

The Mexican government has formed a 100-member council in the United States comprised of U.S. residents whose stated mission is to advise Mexico City on the needs of its 9.5 million citizens living north of the border – legal and illegal.

Carlos Flores Vizcarra, Mexico's consul in Tucson, told the Arizona Daily Star the committee was a "representative entity" set up to "voice the concerns of the Mexicans who are here" in the U.S.

But critics of the committee say it is an attempt by Mexico to bypass U.S. sovereignty and set up representative branch of the Mexican government on U.S. soil.

"I think in general what the Mexican government wants is a joint sovereignty with the United States over Mexican nationals living in this country," Steven Camarota, research director of the Center for Immigration Studies – a group that favors restricted immigration – told the paper.

Vizcarra discounted that, saying the committee was not "a House of Representatives" or "a parliamentary assembly."

And Cándido Morales, director of the Mexican government's Institute of Mexicans Abroad, said one of the committee's functions is "to tell us what government programs that are targeted to their benefit in the United States are working, and which ones are not."

One example, he said, is the Mexican government's literacy program, which provides books to U.S.-based Mexican communities. And, he said, groups like Arizona's Yaquis could seek the committee's intervention in securing permission to cross the border to bring donated materials to the Yaquis in Sonora, Mexico.

Despite those explanations, however, there are other hints that the council may be more of a U.S.-based entity representative of the Mexican government. If nothing else, it seems to have the official backing of Mexico City.

The paper said seats on the council were distributed in proportion to the concentrations of Mexican nationals living in the U.S. Members were not chosen by election; they were selected by Mexico's consulates.

Also, the council itself will be chaired by Mexican President Vicente Fox and will feature representatives from Mexico's government ministries. Vizcarra said the representatives will serve as contacts for solving problems.

Glenn Spencer, an immigration reform activist, said he believes the council is a veiled attempt by Mexico to increase its power and influence in the U.S. He has called the new committee a "colonization council" and its members "Mexican agents."

He also linked the formation of the council to ongoing efforts by Mexico to establish a system in which Mexican nationals residing in the U.S. can cast absentee ballots in Mexican elections.

Currently, the Arizona Daily Star reported, the Mexican congress is considering proposals that would grant those voting rights. Mexican lawmakers are also considering a bill that would form a Mexican congressional district encompassing the entire United States.

U.S. Census Bureau figures estimate that 5 million Mexican-born U.S. residents are in the country legally, compared to about 4.5 million who reside here illegally.

Poverty and joblessness south of the border drives much of the illegal immigration to the United States, but a Mexican government report said earlier this year that even if the Mexican economy were to blossom, massive illegal immigration is still "inevitable."

"The migratory phenomenon between Mexico and the United states is structural and permanent," said a study by Mexico's National Population Council, a ministry of the Interior agency.

The report, entitled, "Migration: Mexico-United States," says regardless of improvements to Mexico's economy, by 2030 the Mexican-born U.S. population will at least double to 16 million to 18 million.

"Diverse factors such as geographic proximity, the asymmetrical and growing economic integration and intense relations and exchanges between both countries make the creation of migratory flow inevitable," said the report.

The report was published a year ago but ignored in the U.S. until David Simcox, board chairman of the nonprofit Center for Immigration Studies, produced an analysis and summary of the document for the Washington Times in March.

PDshooter
December 28, 2002, 09:24 PM
Shoot, Shovel, shut-up;)

nsf003
December 29, 2002, 01:56 AM
Shoot, Shovel, shut-up

Words of wisdom.

nsf

AZTOY
December 29, 2002, 02:07 AM
Shoot, Shovel, shut-up

Sorry this will not work.:( The ground is so hard out here in AZ that it would take days to dig a big hole. :D

V-fib
December 29, 2002, 02:31 AM
Another good site to check out on this nightmare:(

http://www.projectusa.org/

Boats
December 29, 2002, 12:40 PM
So why not militarize the border?

Let's end the charade of cops and robbers out there. The southern border has long since ceased to be a "police" problem and it is now very much like a military problem. We do not need to investigate drug smuggling and coyotes, we need to simply stop them from crossing.

The 38th parallel inbetween North and South Korea is a prime example of a difficult border crossing. Yes, the Southwest is a mite bigger than the width of the Korean peninsula, but damn, isn't that what deep minefields with concertina and huge warning signs about deadly force are for? Condemn the first 500 meters of the American side of the border and make it really impassable. Funnel everybody through actual border city checkpoints.

longeyes
December 29, 2002, 01:16 PM
A cynic might describe the border situation as less government arrogance or indifference or even political vote-pandering and more a deliberate attempt, using malfeasance, to force the average citizen to take action. A cynic might expect the Great White Father in D.C. to use the ensuing confrontations to discredit a) alleged "vigilantism," b) the concept of an out-of-control grass-roots militia, and c) citizen ownership of firearms. A cynic might believe that the War on Terror will be used to justify silencing and disarming critics of policies designed to shore up political power. A cynic might assume that when the Feds DO show up, they will be flying the Flag of Compassion--that's the one with the barbecue tools crossed over the stars and stripes--and make sure no nasty business is being done to our good brothers to the South.

It will take a whole lot o' shakin' goin' on to get the pols that can do something to pay attention to such small issues as sovreignty and the rule of law. Those have been proven mighty inconvenient for career politicians. One guy out of 500 is listening--that's Tancredo--and both parties, not to mention local pols and media types and pressure groups, want his scalp. The voice of the people is going to have to raised to a shout if this whole thing isn't to blow up in our faces.

Gordon
December 29, 2002, 01:22 PM
The US has long since signed into land mine agreement so that ends that option. A physical barrier is possible and is a whole lot cheaper than feeding and giveing free medical care to an out of control population. You dispatch gun ships stationed at points minutes away to respond to sensor violations. First dozen or so hosed by miniguns and the problem will go away forever. Except at Bush's Barbques with Fox, UN commies, Democrat commies and aclu pukes , but they will always be whining about something anyway so screw them. In the big picture a couple dozen pushed back to border in body bags is a lot more humanitarian than the hundreds that die each year illeagally crossing. We'd actually be doing Mex a favor.

Art Eatman
December 29, 2002, 02:54 PM
ahenry: Re the border Patrol personnel increases: In Texas, we got 110 newbies, fresh from training school. They're so young and purty! Problem is, at the same time, 100 experienced BP officers have applied to the Sky Marshall program.

Duh?

For the Belway Bandits, the problem is politickal. If you crack down on illegals, the Political Class of Latin Extraction screams "Racism!". The Republicans are trying to reach out for the "Mexican" vote, so they rollover for the PCLE same-o same-o as little puppy dogs wanting a belly-rub.

Folks like Peter Jennings, et al, are unaffected, so it's no big deal to the Chattering & Nattering Class.

Art

ahenry
December 29, 2002, 03:47 PM
ahenry: Re the border Patrol personnel increases: In Texas, we got 110 newbies, fresh from training school. They're so young and purty! Problem is, at the same time, 100 experienced BP officers have applied to the Sky Marshall program. I know it. It’n it th’ damndest thing? I could go on and on about problems that caused the massive move of BPA to FAM’s. Regardless, the point remains that new Border Patrol Agents are being hired, and there is an increasing presence on the border. It just takes time. Did you know that there were 92,000 (yep, you read that correct) applicants to the Border Patrol for this past Fiscal Year? Of those 92,000 only a hair over 2,000 made it all the way through the process (hiring standards didn't change, and they shouldn't). Compound that with the length of time for background investigations and training of those potential agents and you have a long process. Patience.

JMLV
December 30, 2002, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by AZTOY
Sorry this will not work.:( The ground is so hard out here in AZ that it would take days to dig a big hole. :D
SHOOT. BACKHOE. SHUTUP?
WOULD THAT WORK?

waterdog
December 30, 2002, 04:50 PM
A lot of good points made.

BUT!

In my opinion, the real bad guys, are those A-holes in DC. They are only doing what will get them re-elected. They get big money from corporate America in one fashion or another, regardless of what campaign finance laws say.

Another entity that has a tremendous fault in this mass immigration is corporate America. Go to any hotel, motel, casino and see who is working there.

Damn near all fast food joints are 80% illegals,
70% to 80% of all construction, landscaping and
any other work which involves manual labor is illegals.

And the third turd, is Vincente Fox and the rest of those rich bastards that have been running that country for the last 250 years.

They know damn well the only way to avert a revolution, is to push the population to the north, kinda like a pop-off valve on a hot water heater. They have no need to create an economy, we (the US) have been subsidizing them SOBs for 100 years.

Those poor ignorant mexicans who cross to make a better life, are only doing what is natural to man, trying to survive.

We need to put the pressure on the US bureacracy, US corporations, and Mr Fox and friends to quell this tide.

On a side note, I am sure the FBI, INS, and BP have already infiltrated these border protection groups.


IMHO

waterdog

Jmurman
December 30, 2002, 05:34 PM
I am glad that somebody is standing up. More of us need to do the same.

Gila Jorge
December 30, 2002, 07:18 PM
Major problems here in El Paso Sector. La Migra
is simply not "holding the line" as they like to call it. I think instead they are holding up the fence to allow the wets to crawl under. Surprised that water and taco stands have not sprung up by enterpriseing BP entrepreneurs. Can no longer go four wheeling or quail hunting out west of town in southern New Mexico without being armed to the teeth. Mexican Army is running drugs and shooting up our La Migra on ocsasion. Bush is more concerned with kissing Fox's political ass than he is in protecting US property and peoples. Pandering to buy votes....maybe....For those not close to the problem the US Army already has helocopter gunships along the border to backstop the Border Patrol. Gets really hot on occasion. El Paso Sector turns back about 35,000 a month caught illegally. Can you imagine what gets on by...you simoly would not believe. And the government could care less. Too much paperwork.

Jmurman
December 30, 2002, 07:28 PM
Originally posted by waterdog
A lot of good points made.

BUT!

In my opinion, the real bad guys, are those A-holes in DC. They are only doing what will get them re-elected. They get big money from corporate America in one fashion or another, regardless of what campaign finance laws say.

Another entity that has a tremendous fault in this mass immigration is corporate America. Go to any hotel, motel, casino and see who is working there.

Damn near all fast food joints are 80% illegals,
70% to 80% of all construction, landscaping and
any other work which involves manual labor is illegals.

And the third turd, is Vincente Fox and the rest of those rich bastards that have been running that country for the last 250 years.

They know damn well the only way to avert a revolution, is to push the population to the north, kinda like a pop-off valve on a hot water heater. They have no need to create an economy, we (the US) have been subsidizing them SOBs for 100 years.

Those poor ignorant mexicans who cross to make a better life, are only doing what is natural to man, trying to survive.

We need to put the pressure on the US bureacracy, US corporations, and Mr Fox and friends to quell this tide.

On a side note, I am sure the FBI, INS, and BP have already infiltrated these border protection groups.


IMHO

waterdog
along with reading our posts.

AZTOY
December 30, 2002, 07:32 PM
I got the sh*t scared out of me by one of the helocopter gunships. I was on a dirt road going to the lake by my house. I was going around a turn and there was the gunship, it was look right at me. The pilot hovered there a second and then took off.

:eek:

Gordon
December 30, 2002, 07:53 PM
I'm sure the "gunship" was there to see if you were backhoeing in the mass grave. Then the U.N. can send inspectors as in Balkans. After all the object of the Govt. is to "balkanize" the country. Can you imagine the weenie thats assigned to reading our posts. I bet it could put pee-wee Herman to shame. I'll bet its not human even, more like a feces.:mad:

AZTOY
December 30, 2002, 08:31 PM
Gordon
I don't have a backhoe:( . I would like to get one, but thay cost alot of money.

Can you imagine the weenie thats assigned to reading our posts.

I hope the weenie is working for Vincente Fox . Fox need to know we are tired of the Mexio's illegals.:mad:

Southla1
December 30, 2002, 08:57 PM
"Sorry this will not work. The ground is so hard out here in AZ that it would take days to dig a big hole. "


Damn.....guess this means that hungry gators and crawfish are out too!


(Seriously............I saw some crawfish in a pond reduce a good sized cottonmouth (I shot it) to bones in less than an hour.) HUMMMMMMMMMM a few sacks...................I wonder?

Gila Jorge
December 30, 2002, 09:34 PM
Tree Hugging Wackos wanted to reintroduce the Mexican Grey Wolf....now the Wolf food is available if the Coyotes don't get it first. Maybe those greenies have an idea....sorry no gators as there is precious little water.

waterdog
December 30, 2002, 09:41 PM
In AZ, it really depends on where your digging.

Out in the flats, it aint to bad. If you have to dig near some rock formations (mountains), it can get really hard. We also have caleche, I really don't know what it's made of, but that is some hard s**t to dig. Wear out a set of bits, on a hoe in a day.

AZ was mostly ocean bottom back in day, so most of it is sandy, with little clay.

So if anybody out there has to bury somethin, do it out in the flats.

waterdog

Waitone
December 31, 2002, 05:21 PM
Is it possible, just possible the ruling class is out of touch with their low-life, tax-paying voters?

Interesting you should ask the question. I just found this poll showing a huge gap between what the ruling class thinks and the taxpayer.



http://newswithguts.com/article.asp?art_id=2002_12_13_2_51_4


Public and elites differ sharply on immigration

New survey finds no other issue as divisive
By David M. Bresnahan
Published 12/17/2002 12:01:00 AM


WASHINGTON -- While it has long been suspected that the public and elite opinions differ on the issue of immigration policy, a new survey provides the most compelling evidence yet that an enormous gap exists between the American public and opinion leaders on this issue -- a gap that appears to be widening.

A new report, released today, from the Center for Immigration Studies (CIS) is the first detailed examination of the immigration-related findings of a recent opinion survey conducted by the Chicago Council on Foreign Relations earlier this year.

The survey was based on telephone interviews of ordinary Americans and a cross-section of "opinion leaders," including members of Congress, the Bush administration, church leaders, business executives, union leaders, journalists, academics, and the leaders of major interest groups.

The new CIS report, "Elite vs. Public Opinion: An Examination of Divergent Views on Immigration," by Steven Camarota and Roy Beck, was released at a panel discussion on today at the National Press Club.

The authors of the study were joined on a panel with Scott Rasmussen, president of Scott Polls, a leading political polling firm, and a frequent commentator for Fox News, CNN, and other national media; and James Gimpel, political scientist at the University of Maryland and co-author of "The Congressional Politics of Immigration Reform."

The report is available on-line click here.

Among the findings in the report:
The gap between the opinions of the American people and their leaders on immigration is enormous. The poll found that 60 percent of the public regards the present level of immigration to be a "critical threat to the vital interests of the United States," compared to only 14 percent of the nation's leadership a 46 percentage-point gap.


The current gap is even wider than the 37 percentage-point difference found in 1998, when 55 percent of the public viewed immigration as a "critical threat," compared to 18 percent of opinion leaders then.


The poll results indicate that there is no other foreign policy-related issue on which the American people and their leaders disagreed more profoundly than immigration. Even on such divisive issues as globalization or strengthening the United Nations, the public and the elite are much closer together than they are on immigration.


The enormous difference between elite and public opinion can also be seen on the specific issue of illegal immigration. The survey found that 70 percent of the public said that reducing illegal immigration should be a "very important" foreign-policy goal of the United States, compared to only 22 percent of those in the elite.
Co-author Roy Beck noted that the poll's findings indicate that "continued deep public dissatisfaction with current immigration policy indicates that this is an issue just waiting for a candidate to champion it and thereby reap a significant political benefit." The is especially true, he said, because, "it could be marketed as 'anti-elite' and more in sync with the American people, a message that has traditionally been well received by voters."

Steven Camarota, the other co-author, pointed out that, "The very large difference between the elite and public opinion makes what has transpired on immigration in recent years much more understandable. It explains why border enforcement increased in the 1990s, but at the same time, enforcement within the United States was phased out. More recently it explains why broad interest group support for an illegal alien amnesty, including the business community and labor unions, has not translated into the passage of an amnesty."

Among other findings in the report:
President Bush's efforts to grant amnesty to illegal immigrants appears to be hurting him politically. While 53 percent of the public said his handling of foreign policy overall was excellent or good, on immigration only 27 percent said his handling of immigration was good or excellent.


When asked a specific question about whether legal immigration should be reduced, kept the same, or increased, 55 percent of the public said it should be reduced, and 27 percent said it should remain the same. In contrast, only 18 percent of opinion leaders said it should be reduced, and 60 percent said it should remain the same. It appears that there was no other issue specific question on which the public and elites differed more widely.


A significant discrepancy also exists with respect to illegal immigration, as when respondents were asked an open ended question "What are the biggest foreign policy problems?" The public ranked illegal immigration sixth of 69 concerns, while elites ranked it twenty-sixth.
WHY DO THE PUBLIC AND ELITES DIFFER? It is not entirely clear why the public and nation's leaders have such different views on immigration. Other areas in which the public and elites disagree are those dealing with protecting the jobs of American workers and economic competition from other countries. This strongly suggests that one of the main reasons ordinary Americans are concerned about immigration is that they fear job competition. Opinion leaders on the other hand are overwhelmingly educated, and compared to the public much more affluent. Thus at least part of the reason for the difference of opinion stems of the class interests of the two groups. However, the huge difference between the public and opinion leaders on the issue is clearly an important social phenomenon in need of further exploration. What we can say from this data is that the gap is large, persistent over time, and seems to be growing.

The complete results of the Chicago Council on Foreign Relations survey can be found HERE.

wingman
December 31, 2002, 05:38 PM
WHY DO THE PUBLIC AND ELITES DIFFER"


We live in the septic tank(public)
and the (elite) only sniff it from time
to time. Money will change your
view point on many matters.;)

Ledbetter
December 31, 2002, 06:24 PM
Say, how many illegal immigrants (and their offspring) does it take to constitute a "weapon of mass destruction?"

Art Eatman
January 2, 2003, 12:50 AM
The elites don't have to compete with illegals for jobs.

The elites don't have to live near illegals, nor near "problem areas" like the Border.

The elites only see illegals when they talk to the yardman, the maid, or the busboy, at which time the elites are replied to with proper reverence.

See? If you're a Peter Jennings or a Senator Phoghorn, you don't have a problem.

Art

Oatka
January 2, 2003, 02:59 PM
It looks like those border militiamen are going to need a lot more bodies and equipment. Except for the headlines, italics and bold are mine.

When NAFTA was first proposed, I marvelled that no one picked up on the stupidity and inherent racism of one pro-NAFTA argument: "If we send our factories down there, THEY won't be coming up here." :confused:

Wrong on many levels, including: Mexicans aren't dumb - $3.00 a DAY in Mexico or $5 an HOUR in the US - decisions, decisions.

One anti with a clear crystal ball said to just wait until Archer-Daniels-Midland flooded Mexico with cheap corn and Tyson did the same with chickens; we'd end up inheriting all those displaced campesinos.

Well, yesterday was the Big Day for those two, and, snippets from the article:

"The reduction in costs to U.S. farmers is expected to help flood Mexican markets with cheaper U.S. products and leave many farmers in Mexico unable to compete.
<snip>
If the government doesn't take care of its own, Molina said, [subsidies - Oatka] the farmers left behind as a result of NAFTA will have no choice but to leave their fields and search for better jobs, likely by entering the United States illegally.
<snip>
Kozolchyk said he, too, foresees more illegal immigration as Mexican farmers run out of options."

The U.S and Mexico are in a race to see who can hose their citizens the most.

Mexican farmers fearful of new NAFTA changes
Beginning today, U.S. farmers may send more products south of the border without tariffs.
http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/local/1_1_03nafta.html

Jmurman
January 2, 2003, 06:42 PM
just friggin beautiful................

Justin Moore
January 3, 2003, 04:18 AM
Any ideas how we can shine the light on this cock roach of a politician? Any body know anything we can get on his connection? This is the place for pysops guys.

Roger that. I'm on it:

GRIJALVA!

is a member of MEChA!

http://wildcat.arizona.edu/papers/91/55/01_4_m.html

They had long hair, wore military fatigues and brown berets and were angry and confrontational.

Fists in the air, Chicano student activists in the late 1960s marched on high school and college campuses throughout the American Southwest with voices so loud it was impossible for history to forget them.

This is what alumni of Movimiento Estudiantil de Chicanos de Atzlán told their younger brethren at MEChA's 30th anniversary celebration Friday.

"It's not about nostalgia, not about being angry," said Raul Grijalva, chairman of the Pima County Board of Supervisors and former MEChA member.


I wonder how a person can swear an oath to uphold the Constitution and protect America for all enemies, and be a member of a group that advocates the reconquest of "AZTLAN", namely the Southwestern United States.

MEChA Garbage here:

http://www.mayorno.com/WhoIsMecha.html

The acronym MEChA stands for "Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlan." or "Chicano Student Movement of Aztlan."


MEChA is an Hispanic separatist organization that encourages anti-American activities and civil disobedience. The radical members of MEChA who refer to themselves as "Mechistas," romanticize Mexican claims to the "lost Territories" of the Southwestern United States -- a Chicano country called Aztlan. In its national constitution, MEChA calls for self-determination by its members to liberate Aztlan. MEChA's national constitution starts out: "Chicano and Chicana students of Aztlán must take upon themselves the responsibilities to promote Chicanismo within the community, politicizing our Raza with an emphasis on indigenous consciousness to continue the struggle for the self-determination of the Chicano people for the purpose of liberating Aztlán."

I'm so pissed I'm about ready to EXPLODE! How'd this dirtbag ever get elected in the first place?


:fire:

Check out www.mayorno.com. Apparently one of the LA Mayoral Canidates was a "reconquista" :scrutiny:

Justin Moore
January 3, 2003, 04:31 AM
LISTEN to the vile Grijalva talk about how
we must 'legalize' the 'reality' of illegal immigration:

http://www.prisonplanet.com/grijalva_11_26_02.mp3

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