I almost hesitate to post this.....


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Drizzt
January 6, 2003, 08:32 PM
....because I know it is going to get the Glock fanatics up in arms. Just remember that, if this is the perception people have, for them it is reality, until confronted with facts (and maybe not even then....)



Police pistol poses risk (Australia)

By Ben Harveyand Griffin Longley

WA POLICE will soon carry a type of pistol linked to dozens of accidental firings in the eastern States, including the death of one officer and serious injury of another.

The new .40 calibre Glock has a safety catch on the trigger, not an external latch, with the easy-fire design linked to many of the 30 accidental firings in New South Wales and seven in Queensland in the first two years it was used in those States. It has been reported that in NSW 16 officers received powder burns in the discharges.

WA police will be issued the first 3300 Glock pistols over the next two months as part of a $2.5 million program to replace outdated Smith and Wesson .38-calibre revolvers and 1000 semi-automatic Sigma pistols.

But Opposition police spokesman Matt Birney said the five-year contract should be suspended pending a full review of the pistol's safety.

He was also concerned that Glock issued a warning that some pistols made between September 2001 and May 2002 could malfunction when fired - sending the top part of the weapon flying into the user's face.

"In light of these new revelations, Police Minister Michelle Roberts and the Government have an absolute duty of care and a responsibility to undertake a complete safety audit of this pistol to determine if it is in fact a safe gun for police issue in WA," he said.

Of more concern was the death and injury of NSW police who used the weapon, Mr Birney said.

In January 2000, NSW Const. Matthew Potter was killed when a colleague accidentally discharged his Glock at the end of an overnight shift at Eagle Vale police station.

In July 1998 a probationary constable shot himself at the NSW police academy while putting his Glock back into his holster.

Mr Birney said the rearmament program had been a shambles because the Government had not been aware the contract to replace antiquated revolvers had to go out to tender.

"This was little more than a grandstanding exercise on the part of Michelle Roberts that went wrong," he said.

Mrs Roberts said the rearmament was long overdue and represented a significant upgrade on the weapons used by WA police.

"We are currently re-equipping the WA Police Service with what is considered one of the best pistols in the world and the Opposition is still complaining," Mrs Roberts said.

"If things had been left as they were when we took office the police service would be left with several different types of weapons spanning up to 30 years. That represents a dangerous occupational situation."

Police spokesman Sgt Graham Clifford said two pistols satisfied tender requirements. The Glock was chosen because it was the world's standard law enforcement weapon.

http://www.thewest.com.au/20030106/news/state/tw-news-state-home-sto83655.html

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4v50 Gary
January 6, 2003, 08:51 PM
Newz is Newz Drizzt and the only bias is whether you decide to post and share with us. We know that where it's a quoted news article it doesn't reflect the poster's personal opinion and besides, we love you all the same. :neener:

Thanks Drizzt for keeping us up to date, both when we were at TFL and now here.

9x19
January 6, 2003, 09:15 PM
In a country where they blame guns for criminal-misuse of them.... I'm not surprised they believe poor training and sloppy gun handling are the fault of the pistol... :neener: :rolleyes: :neener:

El Tejon
January 6, 2003, 09:15 PM
Riiiight, maybe they should use Australian Rules Glocks!:D

Safety does not lies in gear; it lies in training, training, and more training. Put a dingo on the barbie and get your po-po to skul.

Fed168
January 6, 2003, 09:30 PM
The gun is safe. The users on the other hand...

Redlg155
January 6, 2003, 09:31 PM
Seems as though these boys didn't do enough training when transitioning from one weapons system to another.

If your department lacks the resources to thoroughly train your officers on a newer system, then get a new handgun that parellels the old one as much as possible. In this case a Glock probably would not have been the best choice. They should have just given them DAO Berettas.

Mr Birney said the rearmament program had been a shambles because the Government had not been aware the contract to replace antiquated revolvers had to go out to tender.

Perhaps they need to go back to the revolver. They are far from "antiquated".

Good Shooting
RED

JohnKSa
January 6, 2003, 10:19 PM
He was also concerned that Glock issued a warning that some pistols made between September 2001 and May 2002 could malfunction when fired - sending the top part of the weapon flying into the user's face.
Hmmm... Someone's taking a bit of literary license here. A broken frame rail is a far cry from a separated slide. This borders on an outright lie.

Blackhawk
January 7, 2003, 12:44 AM
Police spokesman Sgt Graham Clifford said two pistols satisfied tender requirements. The Glock was chosen because it was the world's standard law enforcement weapon.No, it was chosen because of its price/performance ratio, and that's why it's the world's standard LE weapon.

sm
January 7, 2003, 12:55 AM
BH, agree, lots of stuff get picked by bean counters, and supported by marketing.

cheygriz
January 7, 2003, 01:31 AM
In at least three departments that I am aware of, the decision to either issue, or allow privately owned Glocks was made at the request of the department's firearms instructors.

Look around departments where officers buy their own weapon. You will see most of the instructors carrying Glocks.

Nearly 60 percent of American police carry Glocks. There's more involved that just economy. I know this comment will upset some 1911 afficianados, but the Glock has proven to be the best general purpose police firearm in the world.

Matthew Courtney
January 7, 2003, 02:19 AM
Darn things fire when you pull the trigger..... Can't have that in a civil society, don't you know.

firestar
January 7, 2003, 02:41 AM
The important question is. who is getting all those old S&W .38s? We know that they won't sell them to the people of Australia (too dangerous for them) so maybe they will import them to us. :D

I would buy a M-10 for $100.

Tamara
January 7, 2003, 06:27 AM
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

jc2
January 7, 2003, 07:11 AM
Look around departments where officers buy their own weapon. You will see most of the instructors carrying Glocks. . . .
There's more involved that just economy.
Actually, if you look around where officers buy their own weapons (usually before they receive the first paycheck) and look at beginning officer salaries, there's very little more involved than economy.

Glock has large share of the LE market (but not 60%) because (1) it is cheap, and (2) it works.

Kahr carrier
January 7, 2003, 08:35 AM
My finger is my safety.:neener:

bpisler
January 7, 2003, 09:07 AM
I think those guys need to see a doctor because they have a bad case of operator error.

Blueduck
January 7, 2003, 09:47 AM
I almost hesitate to post this.........because I know it is going to get the Glock fanatics up in arms.

I'm a Glock fan till the end. I've had 4 of them and my G-17 makes a constant run as my "favorite" pistol of all time. One of the best handguns ever made for numerous reasons IMHO BUT....

If you issue a large group of people with equal training Glocks as opposed to a double action semi with a magazine safety you WILL have more ND's over the years with Glocks as opposed to the other choice, I'd bet my house on it. Yes the Glock is safe if you don't screw up, but to me it's hard to argue that it is less forgiving of screw-ups than other designs.

jc2
January 7, 2003, 11:21 AM
Glock, of all the weapons available, is probably one of the most prone to operator error. Whether we want to admit it or not, operator errors happen--sometimes despite good training. Fatigue and/or being rushed or in a hurry--not uncommon conditions in law enforcement--contribute to as many ADs as any other factors (including training).

Boats
January 7, 2003, 11:33 AM
Nearly 60 percent of American police carry Glocks. There's more involved that just economy. I know this comment will upset some 1911 afficianados, but the Glock has proven to be the best general purpose police firearm in the world.

I am a 1911 fan and far from being upset, I got a laugh from your comment.

Perhaps it should read, "The Glock line has proven itself to be the weaponry of choice of cost concious, liability fearing, training shy, uniformed politicians."

The 1911 requires safety conciousness to carry, (like the Glock BTW), but also requires a skilled and disciplined shooter to employ correctly under stress (again like the Glock). Most cops aren't up to the challenge, but 1911s cost more and are "scary looking" hence in most departments over a certain size, the 1911 is not permitted except to the elite SWAT type units, though the average officers among these same forces are allowed to AD and ND repeatedly with non-scary looking and cheap Glocks for some reason.:banghead:

wanderinwalker
January 7, 2003, 12:02 PM
jc2 and Blueduck, you stated exactly how I feel about my Glocks. They are great, easy to use, but if you fail to follow the basic rule of keeping your finger off of the trigger until ready to fire, they are not as "safe" as some other designs. Basically, I think of my Glock as a 1911 without all of the extra safeties. A cocked and unlocked 1911 is perfectly safe until some nut puts his finger on the trigger. Glock is the same way.

I am reminded of a line from Blackhawk Down when a Delta operator is being querried by a Ranger Colonel. "Soldier, that weapon is hot, and why isn't your safety engaged." Delta guy flexes his index finger, "Sir, this is my safety right here." (PS, please forgive me if that isn't entirely correct.)

dacinokc
January 7, 2003, 02:29 PM
As an attorney, I would say the liability issues of accidental discharge of Glocks, and a connection to the liability issues police officers face for discharges are not one in the same. Police are sued to the actions of the officer, and the actions of the individual are the key focus, not the saftey device of the weapon.
Many of the large municipalities do look at weapons as a related issue of the cost of business, I.E. liability issues, including LA and NYC who are models of the process.
A good number of police forces look at changing of firearms as a function of the cost of retooling and training. The DA Semi-auto seemed to be favored becuase of the strong similarity to the "feel" of the revolver trigger, and this reduces training time. The no active saftey like the Sig and Glock also appeals from the training point of view.
Cost of the hardware is a major concern, and that has been the strongest suit of the Glock in the police market. Glock has made the pricing of the guns to LEO very attractive, particulary in bid situations.
I have a Glock, and I still enjoy it. I was in the military for a good number of years, and I grew to often be wary of the products that we got from competitive bid, the lowest priced product is not always the best. I was lucky to serve in units where we used "P cards" to purchase products that met our needs, not the best of the lowest.

The comments regarding Police using the glock doesn't upset me, but I am not sure it is as much of a recommendation as one might imagine. I see services often going to companies that might or might not have the ability to execute. It does not mean they are the best at providing, just the best at responding to a competitive solicitation.

Ledbetter
January 7, 2003, 02:47 PM
A pistol that "accidently" fires when you pull the trigger?

"Inconceivable!"

9x19
January 7, 2003, 04:52 PM
Boats,

I see your point... it would be much better if police officers were allowed to AD and ND repeatedly with scary looking and expensive 1911s... right? :evil:

Although, I've begun to think that anyone who repeately ADs or NDs should not be allowed to remain in a position which requires them to carry a pistol... just a (I'm sure unpopular) thought! :scrutiny:

GooseGestapo
January 7, 2003, 05:12 PM
Evidently, they didn't ever teach them not to try to put their finger in the trigger guard and then try to holster the weapon. Even a revolver will discharge if you try to holster it with your finger in the trigger guard, with enough force, that is.

I'm not a real lover of a Glock, even though I carry one daily and have since 1996 when my agency transitioned to them. Even a bunch of Game Wardens can safely carry/use Glocks.

Makes me really wonder about DEM' AUSSIES !!!!

MAYBE THERE IS A REASON FOR THEIR GOVERNMENT TO DISARM THEM !!!!!

Apple a Day
January 7, 2003, 09:30 PM
Tamara & Ledbetter
"There are two things you should never do:
Never fight a land war in southeast Asia and never wager against a gun nut where Glocks are concerned!"
Or something like that. :scrutiny:

BamBam-31
January 8, 2003, 04:22 AM
"Quit it! I mean it!"

Admiral Thrawn
January 8, 2003, 09:37 AM
Aussie here, so this thread hits a bit closer to home...

So what do I think?

Well, as usual, more twisted "truths" from our media (propaganda).

It's typical in this anti-gun country that they would blame a perfectly good semi-auto for the incompetence of police officers...
And then add, to try to frighten people into losing confidence in the weapon, some pure ******** about the gun injuring people with a slide that "flies off"... :cuss:

And it's about bloody time our LEO's got some new handguns too.
I was speaking to one just recently about the issue and the only reason they hadn't replaced their .38 Autos and .357 Magnum revolvers was because of budgetry constraints (how typical again :rolleyes: ).

Coronach
January 8, 2003, 09:38 AM
"Anybody want a peanut?"

Anyway...

Glock: Australian for "if you pull the trigger it will fire."

Mike

krept
January 8, 2003, 12:23 PM
:scrutiny:

Robert Farrar
January 9, 2003, 01:22 AM
Nearly 60 percent of American police carry Glocks. There's more involved that just economy. I know this comment will upset some 1911 afficianados, but the Glock has proven to be the best general purpose police firearm in the world.

I'm not upset. I know a LEO who told me "I just qualify". In other words, he ONLY shoots when qualifying (with a SIG). I was a bit taken aback when he told me this...
I'm not of the camp that says Glocks, "DA" autoloaders, etc. are safer; rather, I think that it's a sales ploy. The safety is between one's ears.
I am pro LE; however, it is a shame that many are hobbled by their departments, politicians, and to an extent public opinion.

Bob

fallingblock
January 9, 2003, 10:23 PM
I have watched the Queensland Police train with their Glocks on numerous occaisions while a resident there. I remember one Police range officer who stressed the proper procedure repeatedly to his trainees. "O.K., boys & girls, this is what we do to not shoot ourselves" (removes magazine and repeatedly racks slide). A young female officer, who didn't understand the operation of a semi-auto pistol, racked the slide several times, each time ejecting a round, then dropped the magazine and popped the Model 22 into its box. "BANG", and the box goes spinning off the range table! There have been so many UD's in Australian Police transitioning to Glocks because the standard of training is woefully inadequate in many areas.:what:

As Admiral Thrawn writes...the notoriously anti-gun Media here love any chance to blame guns for evil...and do so with each police UD they learn of.:fire:

blades67
January 9, 2003, 10:41 PM
You can't sell newspapers if you don't keep the sheeple stirred up. And nothing stirs up the sheeple like misinformation and statistics.:banghead:

106rr
January 10, 2003, 02:57 AM
I was in Australia briefly in 68. I was told that they had recently upgraded from Colt 32 ACP Pocket Auto. Everyone was pleased with their new choice because of the increased knock down power. It was a Colt Detective Special 4" bbl in 32 S&W Long.
I thought they were culturally deprived.
Mike

Beren
January 11, 2003, 02:10 AM
I don't see anything in the article that would slam Glock pistols. The author, and the people doing the whining in the article, obviously know so little about firearms that their opinions are worthless.

I love Glocks. I love 1911's. I love some S&W's.

Every single gun out there will bite you if your training and focus are not up to par.

Maybe they need 12lb trigger springs and the 8lb connector on their Glocks. That'll keep them from going off accidentally... :)

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