Getting CCW Allowed at IUPUI


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Bob's Grandson
April 21, 2007, 08:38 PM
Folks:

I teach part-time and work full-time at Indiana University-Purdue University Indianapolis (http://www.iupui.edu) (IUPUI) and have a son who is a student here. As is the case with most universities, IUPUI disallows firearms (http://www.hra.iupui.edu/Policy_Manual/policy/5_5.html) while on university premises. Soon after the tragic events at VT, I'd written our Chancellor Charles Bantz, asking him to call for the removal of current IUPUI regulations and allow faculty, staff and students who possess a valid concealed handgun permit to lawfully carry a concealed handgun on campus. After a few days I received the following reply:

Those of us who have administrative responsibilities for university campuses across the nation are concerned about the Virginia Tech tragedy and its implications for our academic communities. Because the safety of students and employees is always of paramount concern, we will carefully consider any lessons learned from what happened at Virginia Tech, but we will not, for the time being, reconsider banning firearms from the campus. For now, we will focus on mourning the loss of life that has occurred and on supporting students in processing their feelings about this tragic event.

Charles R. Bantz
Chancellor, IUPUI
Executive Vice President, Indiana University

I'm not going to give up on this. There may be a mechanism in place that would allow CCW-s at IUPUI without a change in current policy or state law. Part of the IUPUI Firearms and Weapons Prohibitions Policy reads:

The following firearms are excluded from this definition. . .A firearm in the possession of a person who has received prior written authorization from the campus police chief to possess a firearm on campus.

This seems to follow Indiana State Law that while prohibiting firearms on school property exempts individuals who have been authorized by a school (http://www.state.in.us/legislative/ic/code/title35/ar47/ch9.html).

What do y'all advise me to do at this point? My initial inclination is to contact Paul Norris, our Chief of Police, and ask what his understanding of this policy is. If indeed he has this power and is willing to unilaterally exercise it, all the better. I suspect, though, that as an administrator he would not take on this responsibility without conferring with the rest of the IUPUI Administration. If I were to make an argument to them, what might I say that would appeal to them? Are there mechanisms for CCW approval I might suggest that would assuage their likely opposition to the idea?

Thanks!

Wayne

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El Tejon
April 23, 2007, 08:16 AM
Contact the alumni association. Hit IU where it hurts, their money.

So, what do you profess?

El Tejon, alumnus.

Bob's Grandson
April 23, 2007, 08:45 AM
Good suggestion! This AM I received a reply to my query from the Chief of Police:

Good Morning Wayne,
Thanks for you comments, and suggestions. I am sure that there will be a
continuing dialogue in reference to Va. Tech and how to properly respond
for the next few months.

I have worked on three college campuses as a police chief over the past
14yrs and I have never approved a request that would allow anyone other
than law enforcement officers to carry a gun on campus.

One problem that I have with allowing those with valid permits to carry
guns on campus is that if there is a shooting; how would police identify
the "good guys" from the "bad guys" ? Most of the campus chiefs that I
know would not support changing the policy for a variety of reasons. We
are hosting the International Association of Campus Law Enforcement
Administrators Regional Conference this week at the Hotel/Conference
Center. I am sure that the Va. Tech shootings will be a topic that we
will discuss during the conference. I will gladly pass your
comments/suggestion on the members to see what they think.(Locking down
classrooms from the inside as well.)

Thanks for your continued interest and support,

Paul

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2007 2:02 PM
To: Norris Jr, Paul E
Subject: Query: Permission for firearms on campus?

Dear Chief Norris:

In light of the recent tragic events at Virginia Tech, I've been
exploring ways in which the IUPUI community might respond if such a
horrible situation arose here. In my opinion it will require a
multi-pronged response that would involve an efficient and complete
communications system by which warnings would reach everyone. It would
also involve a 'lockdown' with assurances that all our classrooms and
offices could be locked from the inside. I think our plan of response
should include the allowance of defensive use of personal sidearms by
permitting those faculty, staff and students who possess a valid
concealed handgun permit to lawfully carry a concealed handgun on
campus. I do think there could be some mechanism of administrative
control.

While firearms are prohibited on campus
(http://www.hra.iupui.edu/Policy_Manual/policy/5_5.html), I do see an
exception: "A firearm in the possession of a person who has received
prior written authorization from the campus police chief to possess a
firearm on campus." Have you or your predecessors had the occasion to
grant such permission? If so, in what situations was this done? If not,
would you be open to granting such permission and under what
circumstances might you do so?

Regards and thanks,

Wayne

I imagine this to be a common response if one were to ask at other universities. We've a 'long row to hoe' as my mother would have said.

Wayne

stevemis
April 23, 2007, 08:56 AM
how would police identify
the "good guys" from the "bad guys" ?

I'm assuming they want to know how to identify a CHP holding a gun versus a psychopath holding a gun.

Simple.

Since the guns carried by staff are always concealed, offer to get them refinished in an agreed upon horribly awful color like pink or red, and make showing the Sheriff the re-colored pistol part of the process for getting the "permission to carry" letter. Officers should be trained to recognize these improbably colored pistols as a way to identify a CHP on campus and react accordingly.

Unfortunately, the antis always seem to cite this "we might end up shooting you" BS... and it seems to work. There are no protections offered to any other CHP's -- using your weapon in public to defend yourself or others does come with potential risks. Being mis-identified by the authorities is only one of them. I've never had to sign a wavier acknowledging this in any state I've had a CHP in.

Steve

El Tejon
April 23, 2007, 10:48 AM
How many times have CCW holders been shot by the police? In Indiana where people have been carrying for generations? How about across the country?

kludge
April 23, 2007, 12:21 PM
Just a few randon thoughts...

It seems like the M.O. of the police is to wait until the pshyco kills himself before they "rush" in. Getting shot by the police is the least of my worries.

After I got my permit I carried at IUPUI every day. No one ever knew. I never hurt anyone. I never even got in any arguments with anyone. OK, my mom knew, and I was "made" by one close friend (she also carried).

At the time (graduated in '96) I don't know if the policy even existed. I didn't ask. I didn't even think to ask. But neither did they hand out any brochures on policy at any time during my travels there.

Asking permission from the campus police is just asking to be harrassed.

Wayne, I would be interested in seeing the response to your nicely worded letter.

Cpl Nobbs
April 25, 2007, 08:42 PM
check the state law carefully. the local University here extended it's "no guns allowed for staff and students" regulation to "CCW not recognized on Campus/No firearms allowed without written permission"

state law says nothing about the University being exempt from CCW. (K-12 your not allowed to CCW except in defence of yourself or other) nor does it (so far) say they may over ride state law. (refusing to recognize legal CCW)

get your state reps involved, get them to ring the AG's bell. (the AG's office wouldn't talk to me about the subject claiming conflict of interest. as my Rep said "the AG is MY lawyer and he WILL answer me")

does your state have an premption law? does it apply to your university? don't just write about it on a website. get out there and phone/visit/ask questions. ask your gunny friends to as well.

9mmHP
April 25, 2007, 08:59 PM
The same rule applies to all IU campuses. Carry on IU property is not illegal per se for those with a license. If detected, you will be ordered to leave the property under threat of a trespass charge for refusal. The people that they have real power over is students who can be dismissed from the university, staff, who can be fired, and faculty, who would be subject to discipline from the lefty faculty council. I worked at IUB for 10 years and could have told you the contents of the chief's letter before he wrote it. There is NO WAY that any chief or administrator is going to stick his neck out for you. The ONLY recourse is the legislature, and, even there, because the House is so evenly divided you are unlikely to get far.:banghead:

By the way, Myles Brand should rot in hell.

The Unknown User
May 8, 2007, 12:20 AM
I have to say that I'm happy with that chief's response, even if it doesn't grant what we all want.

9mmHP
May 8, 2007, 12:26 AM
Happy? For what? He's saying that never, ever, ever, ever will he allow anyone other than a police officer (who do not require his permission, by the way) to carry on campus. How much worse could it be?

El Tejon
May 8, 2007, 08:47 AM
Attorney General? Preemption? What the devil?:confused: Why do you raise these issues?

Cpl Noobs, which university do you speak of? Are you talking about Notre Dame? Evansville? Earlham? DePauw? Where?:confused:

Neo-Luddite
May 8, 2007, 09:14 AM
I LOVE the response the CLEO made. The basis in his logic is that his people wouldn't be able to tell who the 'bad guys' are in a crisis. Amazing.
By this same logic, do armed (but presumably) off duty LEO's need to be in uniform to avaoid the same possible situation?

He's probably not a bad guy at all--but (as stated) he's not putting his neck out for anyone.

Carry anyway and don't get caught. Be grateful that you don't have to break the law in Indy to do so.

BTW--as far as cities go, Indy is OK in my book.

Bob's Grandson
May 16, 2007, 01:07 PM
I'm 1/2 tempted to take the Thomas Paine approach and become a pamphleteer. I was inspired by a poster (http://blog.robballen.com/archive/2007/05/15/Updated-poster.aspx) available over at Sharp as a Marble (http://blog.robballen.com/) to create the following from a satellite image of our campus:

http://ali.indysla.iupui.edu/images/askwhy_sm.jpg

Might be a bit too incendiary, though. :D

Wayne

El Tejon
May 17, 2007, 12:23 PM
Be sure to include: "the cop has no duty to come to your defense."

kludge
May 17, 2007, 12:47 PM
LOL. I actually used that parking lot!

What the view doesn't show is the bad neighborhood to the left.

Bob's Grandson
May 17, 2007, 08:53 PM
What the view doesn't show is the bad neighborhood to the left.

Just yesterday someone was telling me that a common expression is, "Don't cross the bridge after dark." referring to, I assume, either of the bridges crossing the White River into a very bad section of the city just to the west of IUPUI.

IUPUI does offer an (unarmed) "Escort Service" (https://www.parking.iupui.edu/emergencies.do) that you can call to be walked to your car. (I wonder if they'll walk me to my bus stop and wait with me?) That, I guess, absolves IUPUI of any responsibility. It still galls me that this service goes to further support the mindset of, "I can't do anything for myself. I must rely on the University/Government to take care of me and protect me." And two things I've learned over time:

1. What's good for the University isn't necessarily good for the students.

2. What's good for the Government isn't necessarily good for you.

So it is with disallowing sidearms. It's good for the University Administration in that they don't have to sweat any liability issues that their wrong-headed thinking sees arising from armed adults on campus.* It's bad for us in that we're the ones who are rendered defenseless and will be robbed/raped/killed.

Gun control is good for the Government in that unarmed civilians are more likely compliant civilians who look to the Government to take care of them.

*And they can advertise IUPUI being a "gun-free happy safe warm and fuzzy" zone to prospective students and their parents.

Autolycus
May 18, 2007, 10:15 PM
At my old school they offered free rides to females after dark. They would not give men a ride and this pissed me off as I had to walk through the same streets as they would have had to.

Their argument is that I am less likely to be raped than a woman, and I do agree, as well as I am less likely to be mugged. However I knew a few girls who used the free ride instead of paying for cab fair. I am not by any means suggesting all women, or the majority of them were, abusing it but I suspect a good portion were.

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