CZ 75B/Broke AGAIN!


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hansolo
January 7, 2003, 11:41 PM
Here's the deal: when it is not broken(most of the time), I love my 9mm CZ. Unfortunately, my current CZ75B broke both slidestop AND extractor today!! and...this CZ is a replacement for my first one that CZ couldn't repair, so gave me a replacement.:uhoh: AND, this is the THIRD slidestop that has broken in this pistol since JULY of '02 -- that's just six months.

I use only non-+P factory ammo(no Wolf), only rarely do I rapid-fire, I field-strip and clean the pistol after each session...and, have replaced recoil and magazine springs with the recommended Wolff springs. What are the odds that I got two lemons made two years apart? I think these Czech pistols are anti-semites:rolleyes:

To show how loyal I am to the Marque, I sent it back on warantee today and will probably keep it on return...that's how much, A.) I love the pistol, or B.) I am Certifiably insane:cuss:

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cratz2
January 7, 2003, 11:56 PM
Hrmm... Well, put several thousand rounds through my first EAA, a 9mm. And probably close to my 40 S&W EAA with no problems. My current EAA Silver Team was used in competition for a couple years before I got it and I've put 1,300 rounds through it with no problems at all.

My CZ IPSC standard came with a bag that had about 10 slide stops in it and you know the problems you've had with yours.

Draw your own conclusions... :what:

Zip06
January 8, 2003, 12:04 AM
I have about a case of assorted 9mm through my 75B with no problems what so ever. Sorry to hear of your problems but CZ should resolve them. Please keep us up to date on this. Thanks.

Prodigalshooter
January 8, 2003, 12:07 AM
Huh. I've experienced none of those failures in my CZ in the year+ that I've owned it. I think what I find odd, is that your replacement also had problems! I'd think they'd send a gun that had been "tested" a bit more than usual!
Hope this isn't a sign of things to come.:eek:
Hope they get it sorted out for you, cause the CZ is such a nice gun to shoot.

cratz2
January 8, 2003, 12:49 AM
Hey guys, I don't think his problem is that extraordinary. Why would CZ provide 10 slide stops with the IPSC if only one in 10,000 went bad?

Could be hotter ammo, could be... I don't know what it could be but this isn't the first time I've heard of CZ slide stops breaking. Great guns, esp for the price, but I definately think the slide stops are a weak spot.

Kahr carrier
January 8, 2003, 06:44 AM
:what:

Airwolf
January 8, 2003, 07:06 AM
Even with the best of companies you get a lemon or two now and then. I'm really amazed to hear of your problems with the 75.

The the true mark of the company will be in how they resolve the problem.

PCRCCW
January 8, 2003, 08:24 AM
Well...IMO I dont think its the slide stop...? This problem is brought up once in a while on the CZForum...not enough to be "common". Honestly, it sounds like its a symptom of another problem....a tight/out of spec barrel locking setup...?????

I had a CZ that I wanted to pitch off of the highest roof I could find....seriously. My first Compact drove me into a frenzy everytime the slide locked back....and the slide stop wasnt doing it! :banghead: I found the problem eventually...and in all honesty....S&^T happens. It didnt dissuade me from the guns..in fact in my search for the problem..I gained priceless knowledge about CZ's in general.

Id have them look elsewhere for the problem....a connected part of the mechanism....barrel/frame area.......Ill bet they find the slidestop isnt the problem.

Shoot well

Pilot
January 8, 2003, 09:09 AM
I have had CZ's since 1996 and thousands of rounds through them. No problems at all. Hope it gets resolved to your satisfaction.

Grayrider
January 8, 2003, 09:28 AM
Gents,

The IPSC ST comes with four slide stops. Two will lock back the slide on an empty mag (so one spare of that type), two will not (again one spare). The latter are for use in IPSC where you probably don't want to shoot until your mag is dry. So they anticipate one breakage in the life of the gun--whatever that is.

Regardless, I would get on the phone with CZ-USA and talk to Mike. This is not good PR for them.

GR

PCRCCW
January 8, 2003, 10:23 AM
Yep.....its not good PR for them..but Mike will make it right. CZUSA does offer great Customer Service...Let us all know what is found on the gun....Shoot well

hansolo
January 8, 2003, 02:14 PM
Thanks for your interest and empathy:rolleyes: After emailing Walt Sherrill(a CZ Guy), I think his diagnoses may be the reason I've had so many broken slidestops: (this was mentioned above, as well): to put it simply, the forces between the barrel lug and the slidestop pin are not "in spec". I can see daylight when looking straight down between the slidestop release and the left side of the slide...this makes me think that the slidestop pin holes were not "straight"...but the really strange part is, the extractor claw snapped off at the same time....this while using UMC 115g ammo...one that I have NEVER had a problem with...I saved the casing fired right before the slidestop snapped...it dropped right in the chamber...not a case of a bulge that could have damaged the extractor:confused:

Oh well, if I had a perfect pistol, I wouldn't have learned so much about how they work(and, sometimes, break:p

Zak Smith
January 8, 2003, 02:20 PM
From what I understand, from various sources and reading some of the things Matt Burkett has written, it's pretty common for IPSC-type competitors to underspring their guns to increase slide velocity to decrease their split times. This change would contribute to more wear on the slide-stop pin.

FWIW, I've purchased 4 CZ's over the last 6 months.

Two of those operated flawlessly from the box. One would prematurely lock the slide back with rounds left in the mag approx 1% of the time (unacceptible for competition or carry) and it was fixed when I sent it in for a trigger job. The last one was a 75 COMPACT that would FTRB/FTF on 25% of the rounds (FMJ) from the box, and 500 rounds later, would fail on 10% of FMJ and still about 25%-50% of premium factory JHP. http://pub105.ezboard.com/fczechpistols82792frm38.showMessage?topicID=175.topic

That 75 COMPACT is going back to CZ-USA for warranty repair. Really, it's unexcusable to ship such a pistol. On the other hand, my GF has a 75 COMPACT that has operated flawlessly from the box.

Two of those four also had non-structural and non-obvious flaws in the metalwork on the frame: http://pub105.ezboard.com/fczechpistols82792frm3.showMessage?topicID=990.topic

All that said, I like CZ's a lot. My worked-on 75B-SA is currently my favorite pistol to shoot.

I think it's reasonable for a factory gun to come with only a so-so trigger, but to have sloppy metalwork and uncertain reliability is unacceptible and disappointing in a product that's otherwise engineered well and built with "old world quality."

-z

Sven
January 8, 2003, 03:55 PM
sorry to hear of your problems. hopefully the 3rd will be the charm.

Perhaps you could give the new gun a good luck blessing with new HAKAN CUSTOM GRIPS? That would surely cure your jinx.

http://www.imageseek.com/grips/minia.jpg

Hakan's Custom Grips - Website (http://www.imageseek.com/hakan)

-sven

Chris Rhines
January 8, 2003, 05:20 PM
That is just bizzare. Only thing that I can say is that every once in a while you'll get a dud.

I've owned four CZs and am somewhat responsible for three other CZ purchases. All of them have been more or less trouble-free (my first CZ-75b Military had some ejection issues, eventually traced back to Pro-Mag magazines.)

Still, I keep a bag of spare parts handy. That's probably the secret...

- Chris

PCRCCW
January 8, 2003, 05:21 PM
Walt is a solid CZ guy...if their ever was one. His diagnosis follows suit with what I was mentioning earlier...its just to out of the ordinary for this to happen and not be a symptom of another problem.
Zak, yep ....Race gun guys do use very weak springs to increase their slide speed on the recoil impulse...its exceptionally hard on stops..but the race gunners know this....they compensate for it by using shock buffers/different recoil guides that are tricked out to handle it and reduce battering.
Also the opposite holds true..the faster the primary recoil compression the slower the return of the slide....all they are doing is moving the slide speed around to suit their needs.
They do it so they can shoot very low loads of ammo and not suffer with unreliability.
A defensive gun..goes the other way...go as heavy as you can on recoil springs....slowing the slide down on the initial recoil impulse and a quicker return...the faster slowing reduces battering/slide stop abuse of heavier ammo +P etc and again, just moves the speed to where its better for the gun/shooter.

Sven...Absolutely...Hakans will solve not only mechanical and technique problems...but also those of other natures also.....:D
Shoot well

RustyHammer
January 8, 2003, 05:38 PM
I've had no problems of any kind with either of my 75B's. Love them beyond words.

Sorry to hear about your problems. I suggest you call CZ and talk to Mike ... he's the best.

http://www.cz-usa.com/_p/p22.php

Good luck!

Zak Smith
January 8, 2003, 05:46 PM
PCRCCW,
Also the opposite holds true..the faster the primary recoil compression the slower the return of the slide....all they are doing is moving the slide speed around to suit their needs.
They do it so they can shoot very low loads of ammo and not suffer with unreliability. I'm not sure I agree regarding cycle time based on a debate between Matt Burkett himself and a shooter and professional failure-analysis engineer MarkCO on GlockTalk from a couple years ago: The "why heavier recoil spring?" thread on Glocktalk (http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4965). There is some excellent information and data posted in it.

In paricular, using finite-element analysis (what he does for a living), MarkCO showed:
I also tried, at Matt's request, to determine any difference in cycle time based on spring rate in the Glock. There was a lot of noise that had to be filtered out of my accelerometer data, but as near as I can tell, the total cycle time with a 12 pound spring is less by about 40 microseconds (0.000001 second = 1 microsecond) or in the neighborhood of about 8% as compared to a 20 pound spring with the same 165 at 1100 load. But I know of no one who can shoot splits faster than 0.00052 seconds which is about the total cycle time.

I almost forgot, since I used an accelerometer, I was also able to look at both the rearward and forward movement time of the slide. Very interesting also. The final closing speed (right before it stops in lock-up) of the weaker spring is FASTER than that of the stronger spring . So much for some people's theories on bullet set-back being worse with stronger springs. But then we all knew those theories did not hold much water in the first place. Has to do with re-bound. Drop a golf ball and it bounces to a certain height, throw it onto the ground (give it more velocity) and it returns to the released position faster than when it was dropped from the same height. The faster you throw it, the faster it gets back to the starting position.

Also, having a weaker recoil spring will change how the recoil impulse of the slide is converted into torque and thus recoil will feel different to the shooter.

A defensive gun..goes the other way...go as heavy as you can on recoil springs....slowing the slide down on the initial recoil impulse and a quicker return...]the faster slowing reduces battering/slide stop abuse of heavier ammo +P etc and again, just moves the speed to where its better for the gun/shooter.
Besides that the overall cycle time will be shorter with the weaker spring as seen before, all else equal, a stronger-than-normal spring decreases reliability. Yes, if you want maximum life of your slide stop, frame, or any other component stressed during recoil, use a heavier recoil spring for practice or competition.

When you are carring it and any single round must absoluetely run the pistol properly, use of a spring that is heavier may (and a too-heavy spring will) cause malfunctions including FTE, FTF, and failure of the slide to lock back.

regards
Zak

PCRCCW
January 8, 2003, 09:14 PM
Hmmm interesting post and info.

The info may be correct..but find it hard to grasp or believe parts of it..the analogy about the golf ball is relavent if you count when its being compressed...the rebound portion of the analogy which is only when the ball impacts the ground, compress's ...releases and returns the other direction.
The spring is being compressed from the beginning of the slide movement and doesnt complete the cycle until the slide is in battery.

I can see how the faster slide/weaker spring can "rebound" the slide back faster with assistance from either a shock buffer or just bouncing off of the frame..but physical law dictates anything else to be false. A stronger spring will stop the slide faster (on its own tension) and with more tension/weight, thus return the slide faster than with a weaker spring....using its own power as its driving force. A weaker spring without any help from the frame or buffer assisting in its rebound simply cant do the same thing.

Given, the times/speeds differences may not be far enough apart to really give any advantage either way

I carry +P or +P+ 9mm....its hard on guns. I run a 20# recoil spring in my PCR's..have for ever and have had no failures..and a big difference in percieved recoil coming back at me.

Yet whenever I say that..people always come at me with the same type of data you provided for me currently....its all percieved. Every shooter that shoots the gun also has the same perception.....I guess to each their own.

Sorry if I come across as being stubborn...but its because Im stubborn :D Some things just make sense to me...and some simply dont.

Its all good information.....thanks for the reply.

shoot well

Zak Smith
January 8, 2003, 10:59 PM
PCRCCW,

No need to apologize. A lot of this stuff is voodoo or rocket science depending on your perspective. Getting the experience to match up with the physics is hard.

What I liked about that thread on Glocktalk is that a consummate shooting expert with little formal physics/engineering knowledge and the professional math/physics/materials guy started off disagreeing, only to come to agreement after much detail and different effects were discussed.


The info may be correct..but find it hard to grasp or believe parts of it..the analogy about the golf ball is relavent if you count when its being compressed...the rebound portion of the analogy which is only when the ball impacts the ground, compress's ...releases and returns the other direction.
The spring is being compressed from the beginning of the slide movement and doesnt complete the cycle until the slide is in battery.

I can see how the faster slide/weaker spring can "rebound" the slide back faster with assistance from either a shock buffer or just bouncing off of the frame..but physical law dictates anything else to be false. A stronger spring will stop the slide faster (on its own tension) and with more tension/weight, thus return the slide faster than with a weaker spring....using its own power as its driving force. A weaker spring without any help from the frame or buffer assisting in its rebound simply cant do the same thing.


I agree that a stronger spring will close the slide faster than when released from slide-lock or manually slingshotting the slide. It's simple physics when the system starts at rest.

In recoil, however, unless the gun is severely over-sprung, the recoil spring is not going stop the slide's rearward motion completely. The slide will "bottom out" and hit the frame or slide-stop pin, or whatever mechanically prevents the slide from going any further back. In the more lightly-sprung pistol, the slide will hit this "stop" at higher velocity. This is where the "golf ball" analogy comes in- if it hits the stop faster, it'll rebound starting at a higher initial (forward) velocity that it would have with the heavier spring.

This argument about split times is really academic for most of us, since only the top 1% or something of shooters will be able to notice a difference. 40 microseconds? Sure! That'll halve my split times! :scrutiny: NOT!

I agree that recoil perception is different between people and guns. I use a stronger spring in my Glock 23/32 and I like it. But in my 75B-SA, shooting +P ammo, I feel less recoil impule with the factory spring than with a Wolff extra-power (16lb). With the heavier spring, the pistol's muzzle ends up rising more and I feel more of a push.

I still think you must be careful when increasing recoil spring weight in a self-defense weapon, while carrying it. It's well known that overspringing a pistol can cause several types of malfunctions, and increasing spring weight, even while it's not oversprung, will move you closer to certain failure modes. For example, if you hit a round that is on the slow end of the deviation, a heavier spring will mean it has a higher chance to FTE/FTF/FTLTSB. On the other hand, a light spring moves you toward frame/pin battering.

Personally, I don't worry about the wear & tear on the pistol due to shooting carry rounds, either to verify their functionality or to shoot out last-years "carry" rotation. Proload is too expensive to practice with it.

On the other hand, if I'm going to load up a bunch of "warm" to "hot" handloads (all hail old Vihtavuroi data!) and practice with it, or if I'm heading to a steel shoot notorious for steel that won't fall, I'll put the heavier recoil spring in to "conserve" wear and tear on the frame and components.

regards
Zak

Destructo6
January 9, 2003, 12:42 AM
How's this: don't replace the springs with Wolf versions. IMO, the Wolf springs, particularly the recoil versions, are highly overrated. The one I bought for my CZ-75 was about 1/3 longer than the stock version, as was the firing pin spring.

PCRCCW
January 9, 2003, 09:08 AM
Zak,
Again, some good points. Its hard to come up with the perfect setup...for sure. Trial and error and hopefully a setup that works for each situation can be reached. Spring rates are like the old 9mm vs 45 vs 40 arguement....there is no real correct answer...what ever works for you!
Destructo...you can use whatever springs you desire. Its quite common for OEM CZ springs to come very weak brand new....Ive measured 14 LB recoil springs at 12 lbs...
Wolff is a TOP CHOICE if and when you decided you need springs. Ive used them in every gun Ive had for the last ...well, a very long time.
CZ Recoil Springs do come in different lengths...Pre B" is different than B models....etc. So be careful what spring you end up with even from CZ.....Mike can tell us all....If he doesnt know..he calls Dave @ Wolff for tech. assistance.
The new spring will be longer everytime without fail..whether you get one from CZ or Wolff....they take a SET after about 5-100 rnds..and settle into a working length/tension...thus becoming shorter in OAL.
Shoot well....

Chris Rhines
January 9, 2003, 12:07 PM
That is interesting - both my carry guns (full-size CZ-75s) have Wolff mainsprings and firing pin springs, but I stuck with the factory recoil springs. The Wolff Extra Power springs were very difficult to install, and they would bind up the gun something fierce. That may (may!) be part of your problem.

- Chris

Walt Sherrill
January 9, 2003, 02:35 PM
We were debating/discussing (blowing it out our ...) the issue of stronger and weaker recoil springs on the CZ Forum recently.

One of our members talks with the techies at Wolff a lot.

I couldn't see why a heavier recoil spring might require heavier mag springs. We talked through that.... (The slide is slower going back with a heavy spring, but when it starts to go forward, its faster, and there's a limited "window" of time for the next round to be up and ready.) I didn't see that for a long time.

With regard to the heavier spring sending the slide forward faster: it makes sense. More of the energy of the slide going back is being captured in the spring and less is going back into the frame.

I don't understand why that's not harder on the slide stop when the spring sends the slide forward (since more energy is being dealt with...) The spring isn't buffering the slide stop when the slide is being returned, but the recommended action to protect slide stops is a heavier recoil spring. Go figure. (Or, more simply, "HELP!")

This is all semi-esoteric for me, however, so I'll wait to see what others have to say. (I also need to read the whole GLOCK article cited, above.) Thanks for that Glock citation/url.

--------------

I've read the whole thing now, and I don't think I know a bit more useful information now than before I read it. <sign>

I have not experienced MORE FELT RECOIL when I've used heavier springs. (The recoil is the same, but how its imparted is different.) I have no doubt that the way the recoil is experienced is different. I also have no doubt that if more of the total force being handled goes into the frame, the springs have less to use to return the slide. That doesn't mean that the slide returns more slowly, but it doesn't mean it DOESN'T, either.

It seems to me that if the spring is too light, more of the total force won't be handled by the spring, but will be passed back through the frame to the shooter. (That's conjecture, and not based on any tests.)

Some of the opinions expressed in the long discussion on Glock Talk seemed to be little more than that. And opinions are like that thing we sit on: we've all got one.

Only one of the guys had done any meaningful testing and measurement and I'm not entirely sure I understand what he said, or agree with his analysis.

Some of this stuff is definitely NOT intuitively obvious.

Zak Smith
January 9, 2003, 04:28 PM
I agree that the heavier spring will store more energy, but MarkCO was saying that the higher impact velocity when the lightly-sprung slide hits the frame is that it "bounces" and starts with higher forward velocity.

If I were going to prove this either way, I'd want a ransom rest and some very high speed photography...


regards
-z

Walt Sherrill
January 9, 2003, 04:44 PM
I would argue that the amount of "bounce" expeienced would depend upon just how UNDERSPRUNG the gun was.

A lighter spring, if it wasn't too light, wouldn't support his argument. If the spring was lighter but didn't allow MUCH slap/bounce, what happens -- and how would tha differ from a substantially heavier spring?

A Wolff Springs techie told us (on the CZ Forum) -- through a member who was talking with Wolff -- that a heavier spring will slow the slide as it moves to the rear, but when the slide started its return trip, the extra stored force would move it more quickly than a lighter spring -- causing potential feeding problems. (That's why a heavier mag spring was sometimes required -- to get the next round up quickly!)

All of this seems to fly in the face of what Marko is claiming.

This is like counting the number of angels that dance on the point of a pin... <grin>

Like you, I'd like to see some HIGH SPEED photography/imagery of the whole process with different spring weights in use.

Destructo6
January 9, 2003, 07:30 PM
Destructo...you can use whatever springs you desire.
Thank you. I think I will.

Mark F
May 7, 2008, 07:38 AM
I certainly hope the issues mentioned are isolated! I just bought a 40 S&W CZ-75B.

http://tech.flygsw.org/CZ-75B.jpg

This is an exceptionally nice auto-loader and I'm expecting to fry a lot of ammo through it.

skinewmexico
May 7, 2008, 09:04 AM
Well, it has been 5 years.

wingman
May 7, 2008, 09:58 AM
Just a thought here but if one were to do a lot of slide releasing(movie type)
on an empty chamber would that not contribute to slide stop and extractor breaking.?

armoredman
May 7, 2008, 10:22 AM
There was a batch of bad extractors/slide stops several years ago, and that was addressed. I haven't heard of this happening since then. I have thousands of rounds through my CZ and my wifes, no issues yet!

Grayrider
May 7, 2008, 01:22 PM
Agreed. Old story there and you certainly have nothing to worry about. CZ does it right.

John

chaim
May 8, 2008, 06:41 PM
Wow, another OLD thread dredged up by a new poster. PLEASE check the dates before bringing up an old thread. In this case you brought up a thread from 5 years ago posted by a man who became a good friend of mine through here and thefiringline.com who died just under 2 years after this post.

And for the record, even after CZ shipped him a replacement pistol he still was having issues with the gun. He "replaced" it with a stainless S&W 910 for home defense but never sold the CZ and used it as a range gun since he couldn't bring himself ethically to sell it to someone with its problems. He also wasn't my only friend with a problem CZ (my best friend's CZ 85 Combat hasn't exactly been reliable either and my CZ 75B occasionally has its issues too, but is overall a decent gun with 10K+ rounds).

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