NY'ers, please do not do business with CDNN


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scubie02
August 6, 2007, 06:15 PM
I just called to place an order for a handgun from CDNN. This would have been sent to my FFL dealer, and was a handgun which comes with 10 round magazines, which are perfectly legal in NY. After going through a bunch of the process with them locating my account and such, the person I was speaking to informed me that CDNN will no longer sell handguns to NY. I explained that the only limitation there would be would be ten round magazines, and since I was ordering a pistol which came with ten round magazines that would not be an issue, and was informed that they can't be bothered to try to keep track of different restrictions or what the restrictions are, so they simply decided to not sell ANY handguns to NY. As far as I'm concerned, their disinterest in making the minimal effort it would take on their part to put something into their software or let their operators know that only handguns with 10 round or less magazines can be sold to NY shows that they really are not interested in serving their customers or doing business with NY in general. The operator quickly pointed out that they would sell me a rifle and asked wasn't there some long gun I might wish to purchase instead--there's some nerve! Maybe it's just me, but I am unwilling even if it's a deal to buy something from a company who is labeling me persona non grata in any respect just because of the state I am from. I hope others will join me and will send emails or letters explaining why they will no longer do business with a company who doesn't value that business enough to put themselves to any effort.

Now, you may say that we might as well take what we can get and why shouldn't you take that deal on a rifle or shotgun, because maybe you don't buy handguns, so what's it to you. But more and more NY'ers are up against it because more and more online businesses will simply not do business with ny--no ammo sales, no handgun sales--soon enough it may well be no sales whatsoever. We in NY are being strangled and prices here are higher than elsewhere because of it, and that is EXACTLY what the Powers That Be here want! Stand up and start letting vendors know that they will not be receiving ANY of your dollars if they can not stand up for us. By caving in this fashion they are helping the anti's, and in the long run they are cutting their own throats, because this sort of thing just spreads. Right now they may sell we don't sell to CA and NY and MA and MD and NJ...how many more will it be and how many states can they afford to write off? :(:banghead::mad:

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Jimmie
August 6, 2007, 06:20 PM
I think your activism is misdirected?
http://schumer.senate.gov/SchumerWebsite/images/photos/sen-chuck_tv.jpghttp://clinton.senate.gov/images/photos/176w/photo31.jpghttp://www.ny.gov/governor/photos/images/0103078_sm.jpg

http://www.ny.gov/

If I owned a business, and I knew a puppetmaster sent his goons to other states to harrass them, I wouldn't sell to his state, either.

000Buck
August 6, 2007, 06:25 PM
That is frustrating but maybe they are afraid of making one tiny mistake with state laws and getting sued because of it. AIM surplus got busted on something from a state they made a small mistake on and got sued I believe. I think they got pretty reamed on it. That and the fact that Bloomberg is running stings in VA probably has all of these businesses scared of anti-gun states.

The-Fly
August 6, 2007, 06:29 PM
I can't blame CDNN for their stance. And thats exactly why states such as CA, MA, NJ, NY, etc, have their silly rules and restrictions. To hassle legal gun owners like you, drive legal FFL's like CDNN out of business, and basically implement a de-facto gun ban while saying they don't ban guns.

brentn
August 6, 2007, 06:53 PM
Isn't that what an NY FFL dealer does? conform that its legal? I mean if it wasn't, you can't pick it up, its that simple.
They made a poor decision not to sell to you because of laziness and misunderstanding on their part.

If I were you, I would call them back and talk to the manager. If you want to make a difference its not going to start here, tell the boss what exactly was said.

Prince Yamato
August 6, 2007, 07:21 PM
Oh here we go... the "crap on NYS" crowd. Look, NYS has pistol registration, that's it. It also has a mirror of the old federal AWB. There's only like 5 or 6 states that are a PITA to sell to. You're telling me that a company can't keep track of them? Hell, I bet 1/2 the THR members could recite these states laws aloud. I think isolating these states does more harm than good. I say this as a former NYer as well. The old, "well that state is hopeless" rhetoric does no good. And you know what else? These states aren't hopeless. The thing that really cheeses me off as well, is that some of you don't realize that in giving up on these states, you basically make it easier for the antis to bring the "war on guns" on to our home turf. Frankly I don't want these people imposing their "values" on states like Texas. I say we bring the war to them and part of that entails doing business with states like NY. Much as we shipped weapons to England during WW2 to combat fascism, so must we ship pre-ban items to NYS to combat...fascism.

scubie02
August 6, 2007, 07:31 PM
I think your activism is misdirected?

not at all in my opinion. I cannot do anything about the bizarre circumstance of those people getting elected, and believe me, I have tried. I have voted in every election, and certainly have never voted for Schumer of Hillary. But the reality is that NYC has more votes than all of upstate NY combined, and our generally conservative majority of upstate is basically fighting for it's life against downstate continuously. You want to talk about activism, trust me, nobody is fighting more tooth and nail than upstate gunowners, and you cannot imagine how disheartening it is to be constantly writing letters and being politically active, then get cut off at the knees by our own. NY politicians, as mentioned, do things like say no more than 10 round pistol mags and we're keeping the assault weapon ban, and rather than take small measures like continuing to stock pre-ban rifles or stocking some 10 rd mags to throw in a pistol case while keeping the highcap ones to sell to someone else, they just say "well, let's not bother with NY at all", and by doing so they do EXACTLY what Schumer and Hillary and all are looking to have happen, and make no mistake, anti's in other states see that and go "hey, that worked in NY"--just see how much media coverage that nut Bloomberg gets!

I'm sure CDNN would say it's too hard to keep track of the different laws, but realistically as noted there are a half dozen different states or so that are fighting for their lives that they might have to keep track of. And I am willing to bet that if they contacted the NRA or the state organizations, they would probably be willing to work with them and keep them informed on any restrictions. It would generate goodwill and positive publicity and foster goodwill amongst the goodguys. One secretary could probably coordinate it with little effort.

scubie02
August 6, 2007, 07:33 PM
EXACTLY Prince Yamato--very well said! Thank you! It's that whole "and by the time they came for me, there was nobody left to speak up" thing that people STILL don't seem to get *sigh*

1 old 0311
August 6, 2007, 07:46 PM
Vote the SOB's out of office and turn N.Y. into a free State. Most other states did.

Prince Yamato
August 6, 2007, 07:47 PM
It's not as simple as voting people out of office, because NYC, which is very anti-gun, scares up more votes than conservative upstate.

Robert Hairless
August 7, 2007, 06:47 AM
You're not receiving what CDNN and a great many other businesses in the firearms industry are transmitting. New York is one of several states that are simply too dangerous for these businesses to sell into. You should be able to name the other states too.

It's perverse to call for gun owners to boycott those businesses and punish them for not fighting your battles at the risk of their own ruination--especially when the gun owners and other taxpayers in those states place limits on their own willingness to sacrifice. Nobody has a duty to do for you what you won't do for yourself.

For example I've yet to see reports of suits brought by New York City's taxpayers against Mayor Michael Bloomberg and the City for misuse of its powers and their tax money by sending teams into other states to enforce federal laws. Individual and group legal action of such kinds would be costly and are likely to expose you to retribution by such mayors and city governments, so its understandable if you wouldn't want to go in that direction.

If you don't do it, though, you can't reasonably ask anyone else to go beyond the limits you've imposed for yourself and fight your battles for you. Many people--not only gun owners--are willing to support people in other cities and states by standing with them to address wrongs and matters of principle. Few people--not only businesses--are willing to do more for them than they will do for themselves. Voting is insufficient when votes are inadequate to correct a tyranny of the majority.

A better reading of the sentiments attributed to Pastor Martin Niemoeller ("... When they came for me, there was no one left to speak out") might suggest that any citizen of New York who really wants to challenge conditions there needs to do more than vote against the overwhelming tide.

CDNN is not alone in deciding not to sell firearms into New York or in refusing to sell magazines and other goods there. There's no moral quality to that decision nor is there an obligation for any foreign business to bear the burden that the taxpayers, residents, and voters are unwilling or unable to carry.

I agree that what happens in New York, New Jersey, and other states affects and will affect all of us, but there's no possibility that we can accomplish what you can't or won't, nor are we responsible for doing so. Gun owners in those places have failed us all.

Caimlas
August 7, 2007, 08:02 AM
I imagine their perspective is something like this: You live in a state which has politicians actively exporting gun control and pushing it at a national level. Furthermore, politicians that run your state are litigating/frauding gun shop owners out of business on fraudulent and trumped-up accusations, and since guns are their business, they want nothing to do with your state for that very reason. Finally (and I say this as someone with two NYer parents and as someone who grew up in NY and a lot of family still in NY), New Yorkers are typically not all that pleasant to converse with: they (we're) picky, pushy, demanding, and rude. Frankly, I'm surprised that CDNN (and most any gun business) does business with people in NY any more, simply due to the high likelihood of negative experiences.

And, do you have any idea how difficult it is to determine the legality of every single item in your inventory, for every state? That's a serious headache for anyone to keep track of, with or without software. It's not so simple to "put something into their software" to make it work - it requires a complete software redesign every time some numbskull decides to change the law or regulation, and that costs money. And as complex as NY gun laws are, it's something they certainly don't want to entrust to the discretion of a person on the phone taking orders (hey, they might screw up and send an 11 round pistol magazine to NY and incur the wrath of some goon). Heck, it'd cost them more to sell handguns to NY as a result, I don't doubt, and there's probably some sort of law on the books that says they can't charge certain states more for the same product, just because.

So, instead of distributing the cost of doing business with New Yorkers (never a pleasant proposition), they simply decide not to.


I'm sure CDNN would say it's too hard to keep track of the different laws, but realistically as noted there are a half dozen different states or so that are fighting for their lives that they might have to keep track of.

I'd say the reality is closer to the person you spoke to on the phone simply being tired of getting yelled at for the truth (it didn't make business sense to sell to NY, for whatever reason) and decided to blame it on a physical limitation. Maybe... (Hey, I don't buy from CDNN, so I'm not really defending them per se.)

There is a winery - the oldest in the US, actually - a mile from my parents' house. Yet, I can't purchase a bottle and have it shipped to me - because they're in NY, and I'm in SD. I'm not angry at the winery because of this. Forces - whether political/legal or financial - prevent them from doing so, just as with CDNN.

Caimlas
August 7, 2007, 08:11 AM
Oh here we go... the "crap on NYS" crowd.


You chose to leave their by choice. Why?

Look, NYS has pistol registration, that's it. It also has a mirror of the old federal AWB.


Yep, that's it. Just minor piddlywinks is all... right?

There's only like 5 or 6 states that are a PITA to sell to. You're telling me that a company can't keep track of them?

Is it 5, or is it 6? I don't know about companies, but I can't keep track of how many they are or which states they are, let alone the specific regulations in those states. And, apparently you can't either. It isn't laziness or anything of that sort when a business decides it's not going to do more work for less: it's prudence.

scubie02
August 7, 2007, 09:57 AM
hey, thanks for the support...

I will pretty much GUARANTEE that I have written more letters and emails and made more phone calls on the behalf of gun rights than 99% of people on this forum. I work in education, and make sure that I present the pro-gun viewpoint every damned year to our youth who are bombarded daily by antigun sentiments in our educational system--at my own professional risk I might add since the majority of liberal educators and administrators think you are on a par with child molestors for owning guns. I resent HIGHLY the accusation that, because I am from NY, I have "let down" gun owners from other states somehow.

Rather puts me in mind of if we had told the Free French or the Brits or the Ruskies in WWII that it was their own fault that Hitler invaded them and was kicking them around, so we weren't inclined to send them weapons or help out in any way.

This is why our side will eventually lose.

OCJ
August 7, 2007, 12:09 PM
I have no problem with companies making a political statement by refusing to do business with states that have such anti-gun laws. Just look at what happens on here when a business is called out for being anti-gun....members here decide not to do business with them.

I think the correct course of action would be to organize activism and get the current NY government's stance on gun control changed.

Many gun companies refuse to do business with CA also for the same reasons.

scubie02
August 7, 2007, 12:15 PM
A better reading of the sentiments attributed to Pastor Martin Niemoeller ("... When they came for me, there was no one left to speak out") might suggest that any citizen of New York who really wants to challenge conditions there needs to do more than vote against the overwhelming tide.


i seeeee...so, he'd probably have told the Jews they should have been doing more in the camps than simply going along...maybe have a Warsaw Ghetto sort of uprising, but don't expect any Allied help...interesting...that worked out pretty well for the Warsaw folks...

scubie02
August 7, 2007, 12:23 PM
i've said it before and I'll say it again, but people can point fingers and say "NY has what it deserves for not voting those folks out", but it is a matter of the State being run by liberal NYC. Think this can't happen to you? Ask someone from PA--how's Philly seem to you in regards ti gun rights? Are they not filing lawsuits and trying to get your gun rights flushed down the toilet at every opportunity? Are you not finding an ever increasing barrage of antigun legislation being proposed constantly that you are having to try to fend off?
Know what, I used to think about moving to PA for the better politics but I wouldn't now, because they are teetering on the edge and about to topple over. As is NH, for all the "Live Free or Die" sentiment you see on there. I lived in NH before moving back to NY to be nearer aging/ailing family, and I can tell you that the Massachusetts liberals will have taken that state over politically in the not so distant future as well--southern NH is already pretty packed and looking an awful lot like Long Island if you ask me. Bury your head in the sand that "that's just NY", but don't kid yourself it won't be your problem some day if you take a "meh, what do I care what goes on there" attitude.

Novus Collectus
August 7, 2007, 12:30 PM
hey, thanks for the support...

I will pretty much GUARANTEE that I have written more letters and emails and made more phone calls on the behalf of gun rights than 99% of people on this forum. I work in education, and make sure that I present the pro-gun viewpoint every damned year to our youth who are bombarded daily by antigun sentiments in our educational system--at my own professional risk I might add since the majority of liberal educators and administrators think you are on a par with child molestors for owning guns. I resent HIGHLY the accusation that, because I am from NY, I have "let down" gun owners from other states somehow.
Ok then since you are so good at writing letters, try this. Get an official determination that the type of guns CDNN will not sell in NY are legal in NY from your Attorney General's office and then send it to CDNN. If they still refuse to sell to you, then you still can't really blame them for it because they may be trying to send the gun owning voters of NY a message to be more politically active in their state....not you personally since you say you are so active already, but you will have to suffer as a result of all the lazy other gun owners in your state.

Here in MD we have extremely confusing laws and some manufacturers refuse to sell here. And then there are some that refuse to import to the state not because of ambiguity or confusion, but as a simple protest against the MD laws (specifically requiring the guns be fired first and the additional cost of doing so). Now I have learned to accept that the distributors and manufacturers have a right to be like that and they have decided they don't want my business, so I get to focus my feeling dissed and anger at the politicians who passed these stupid laws instead. I too am a lazy gun owner, but I have started waking up and becoming active politically within my state. There is a growing movement in my state of true activists I want to join in their activities more often.
So don't get mad at CDNN (just don't give them your business), get mad at your lazy fellow NY gun owners and your politicians instead. MD is filled with lax or lazy gun owners that did not bother with the gun laws until it was too late for many laws passed, but that is slowly starting to change.

hexidismal
August 7, 2007, 12:34 PM
It's not just CDNN. The popular Budsgunshop.com won't sell any handguns, regardless of it's legality, to NY at all. Not even a revolver. I have always found this quite frustrating.

Correia
August 7, 2007, 01:15 PM
Look, Activism threads need a clear purpose. Don't nit pick them to death here. To hammer out details go to the Activism discussion area, hash out the details, and then come here and post the activity.

I don't think you're going to get any consensus on this, and here's why:

Hell, I bet 1/2 the THR members could recite these states laws aloud.

And if that THR member gets it wrong, so what? What does he lose? He was wrong on the internet.

If CDNN gets it wrong, they get sued into oblivion.

They're a business. They weigh pros and cons. Apparently to them, selling to New York isn't worth the risk.

Some other vendor will sell to New York. Heck, I've sold guns to California, Mass., Illinois, and New York. So have your dealer find the gun you want, and let him go through the work. That's why he's a dealer.

atk
August 7, 2007, 01:42 PM
scubie02,


I cannot do anything about the bizarre circumstance of those people getting elected, and believe me, I have tried.



Exactly what have you tried? You say that you've sent letters and emails, and made phone calls. Have you run a campaign to prevent their election? Have you run a campaign to help someone you support get elected? Have you posted, or otherwise found, a dirty laundry list on the existing government, that you can use to sway other voters?

Prince Yamato
August 7, 2007, 02:40 PM
Oh here we go... the "crap on NYS" crowd.
You chose to leave their by choice. Why?

Quote:
Look, NYS has pistol registration, that's it. It also has a mirror of the old federal AWB.
Yep, that's it. Just minor piddlywinks is all... right?

Quote:
There's only like 5 or 6 states that are a PITA to sell to. You're telling me that a company can't keep track of them?
Is it 5, or is it 6? I don't know about companies, but I can't keep track of how many they are or which states they are, let alone the specific regulations in those states. And, apparently you can't either. It isn't laziness or anything of that sort when a business decides it's not going to do more work for less: it's prudence.

I left NYS to pursue graduate music work, initially in Canada, then in New Mexico and Texas. My reasons for leaving NYS had nothing to do with firearms and everything to do with academics. My point concerning the pistol registration and AWB was that it isn't too hard to follow.

It's not unreasonable to expect a company dealing in firearms to know the laws of 5 or 6 more restricted states. The information is public knowledge. Also, the Bloomberg argument holds no credence in UPSTATE NY. NYS and NYC are different animals entirely. Now, if Mayor Duffy of Rochester all of a sudden starts suing gun companies out of state, OK, I see the argument. Some people can't get it out of their heads that upstate and NYC are two entirely different regions as far as gun laws go, but unfortunately politically linked in terms of elections.

Some other vendor will sell to New York. Heck, I've sold guns to California, Mass., Illinois, and New York. So have your dealer find the gun you want, and let him go through the work. That's why he's a dealer.

And it's not brutally difficult to do, is it? I'm assuming you looked up the law and said, "OK, here's the rules, I'm going to follow them, gun sold". Unfortunately, there's a definite culture of dumping on the less free states. Telling someone to "move" is easy, but the reality is often more difficult. Moving often means uprooting families, finding new jobs, changing insurance providers, having to find new school districts for children- in addition to the massive expense of hiring movers. I'm fully aware of this, I've moved 3 times already, once out of country. Also to be considered is that some people may have jobs that necessitate moving back into one of these states.

Again, back to the original topic, while these places are "restrictive", firearms ownership is far from impossible, especially in upstate NY. Simply refusing sales to these regions doesn't punish Bloomberg or Hillary, it punishes NYS gun owners.

gopguy
August 7, 2007, 04:03 PM
Concern over lawsuits and Bloomberg. I really don't blame CDNN for being cautious...

000Buck
August 7, 2007, 04:10 PM
Have you talked to the management at CDNN? What did they say?

How do you suggest CDNN keep up with changing laws in these states? Lets say NYS passes a law banning sale of handguns, how is CDNN supposed to find out? Should they have someone working in the state captial building of each of these 5 or 6 states? Or are you going to bring up the NRA and say they can work with them on it?

Your "minimal effort software upgrade" among other things shows you might be naive about how businesses run and how difficult and costly the smallest things can be, especially involving the law. I am not trying to be insulting but these things are not as easy as they may seem. And before you rebutt that Correia does it, why cannot CDNN....the answer is simple, Correia probably doesnt have a large group of low paid phone operators doing his work for him so he has an easier time making sure things are done correctly, and its probably still difficult.

Prince Yamato
August 7, 2007, 04:24 PM
Lets say NYS passes a law banning sale of handguns, how is CDNN supposed to find out? Should they have someone working in the state captial building of each of these 5 or 6 states? Or are you going to bring up the NRA and say they can work with them on it?

Oh I don't know, READ THE NEWS. Browse gun forums. State laws aren't rocket science. I guess I misspoke earlier. What I was referring to was that if Correia is doing it then why can't other people? Yes, if you have a company that engages in interstate commerce you SHOULD have a person who looks over the laws. How do you know that Indiana won't pass a ban? Actually South Bend has an AW ban too. Egad! Bloomberg is also the mayor of NYC, not NYS. Again, the lawsuits are coming from the City, not the state. You need to make a distinction between the two. NYC != NYS. Different gun laws, but same voter registration.

Bloomberg probably doesn't even know that upstate NY exists. He probably thinks that Rochester is a suburb of Toronto ad that Buffalo was annexed by Pennsylvania in the 1850s.

Correia
August 7, 2007, 04:27 PM
Yeah, and I sell about half of a fraction of a percent of the number of guns CDNN sells. So it isn't like I've had to keep up on lots of laws for lots of different places constantly. It was more like one guy wanted a particular gun, and I had to check if that one particular gun was legal in his state.

CDNN sells hundreds of guns a week. I think it would probably take a full time legal person to check every order.

There really isn't a retail software that lets you do this either. It would need constant updating as every locality changed its laws.

And I'm not saying to to say "shaft the New Yorkers, or the Californians," or whatever, but the entire US gun business is smaller than Home Depot. We're not exactly rolling in the dough in a fat market industry. It is just math.

Go to your local dealer. He knows the laws for the area, and he knows what he can get. Have him get it for you. He might not always have the best prices, but he's the dude that has to survive in that caustic environment.

Sorry guys, L&P is closed for now, and this is really a L&P discussion, and not true activism, so I'm going to have to close it. Sorry.

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