10mm Witness arrives, but...


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Grayrider
January 9, 2003, 11:58 PM
Gents,

My 10mm Witness finally got here. While fiddling with it (no ammo in sight of course), I discovered a possible problem. The slide will not lock back on an empty mag unless I apply a tremendous deal of force retracting the slide or press up on the bottom of the mag. This is true with both 10mm mags I have, but interestingly not with a 45 mec-gar mag from another Witness. I swapped slidestops around a bit with my other Witnesses, only to find the one with my 10 works fine in other guns.

This leads me to wonder if I got a bad gun, bad mags, or perhaps it is just tight and will shoot in with time. Any thoughts?

GR

PS Sorry for the cross-post for those of you who also hang out at the CZ forum.

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Mike Irwin
January 10, 2003, 12:28 AM
Mine's the same way occasionally. Apparently the mags are a bit on the sticky side.

I ignore it, and it's never proved to be a problem when I'm shooting it.

Kahr carrier
January 10, 2003, 10:16 AM
I would try shooting it and see if it still has the problem.:)

Sean Smith
January 10, 2003, 10:27 AM
What color are the followers?

Grayrider
January 10, 2003, 10:40 AM
Sean,

They are red. One mag is the one that came with it, the other one bought new from a completely different place. Interestingly they also don't lock back my other Witnesses. Perhaps Tanfoglio has made a bad run lately. I notice the design of the 10mm mags is very different from the 38 super or 45 mags at the top. Odd they would depart so much from the other designs.

GR

Mike Irwin
January 10, 2003, 01:29 PM
I bought a second magazine, one with a black follower, second hand.

Big mistake. It jams the gun every time, apparently the red follower version was the redesign.

Any one know if EAA will "refollower" my magazine?

Sean Smith
January 10, 2003, 01:49 PM
Red is the new-design, but the follower isn't the only difference (look at the feed lips closely).

Also, look to up the recoil spring weight to around 20 pounds.

Mike Irwin
January 10, 2003, 03:59 PM
"up the recoil spring."

Excellent point, Sean.

Witness are, in my opinion, SEVERELY undersprung from the factory.

Grayrider
January 10, 2003, 04:07 PM
I did go ahead and get a heavier spring from Wolf. I plan to test first with the stock spring to look at the lock back issue. Should it not happen during firing I will move on to the heavier spring. The dealer's opinion is that it is probably just tight and needs to be broken in.

GR

4v50 Gary
January 10, 2003, 05:27 PM
What Kahr Carrier says. Shoot it to see if there is indeed a problem. Also give the gun some time to "break in" and work out the rough spots.

Mike & Sean - great discussion about the magazine, follower & springs. These are the "insights" that we look for at armorer school as it helps us put dates on things and helps with diagnosis of the gun.

Mike Irwin
January 10, 2003, 05:35 PM
I need to check with EAA to see if they will do anything about the magazine.

Sort of ticks me off first time I tried to use it I had to hammer the back of the slide every time to get it to load a round.

BigG
January 10, 2003, 05:37 PM
The slide will prolly lock back when driven back by the force of shooting.

Blackhawk
January 10, 2003, 06:54 PM
A new gun is liable to have all kinds of strange anomalies. Shoot it for a few hundred rounds to break it in or just break it. They're very precision machines that have to deal with extreme forces. They can't get their parts seated without shooting, IMO.

Peter M. Eick
January 10, 2003, 07:40 PM
Shoot it a while. My witness was reasonably tight and I started with black followers years ago. It will work itself and if it is like mine it will be very reliable.

Good luck

Sean Smith
January 10, 2003, 09:59 PM
The stock spring on a 10mm Witness is something nutty like 14 lbs. :eek:

The conventional wisdom used to be to use 24lb+ rockcrusher springs in 10mm guns. 20lb variable-rate springs seem to be coming into their own as the "better mousetrap" for full size 10mm guns, especially in conjunction with a buffer.

Glocks might be a different animal, though, since I know there is some anecdotal evidence that heavier (24 pound fixed-rate) springs can noticeably reduce pressure signs on brass when shooting hot-rodded loads out of 'em. But that's a whole other can of worms. :D

Anyway, my experience with the 10mm Witness was pretty positive. Sort of a simplified, reduced-gimmick Bren Ten when you get right down to it. With a trigger job and a match barrel (does anybody make those for that gun?) it would be a real force to be reckoned with. :evil:

Grayrider
January 10, 2003, 11:24 PM
Thanks guys for the advice! I will hit the range in the morning and see what happens. I really like the gun so I hope it works out. The feel is excellent, and it has a pretty good trigger for stock. Overall it is built like a tank. I like that it has more heft to it than the small frame or even large frame Witnesses in other calibers. There are some interesting differences in the cuts in various spots as well, I assume to handle the hotter 10mm round.

GR

denfoote
January 11, 2003, 02:33 AM
Don't forget to tell us how it goes!! All this talk about the 10mm makes me want to saddle up the G29!!:D

Grayrider
January 11, 2003, 01:30 PM
Well you guys were right--thank you for the good advice! The slide locks back fine when fired. I guess the extra force of the 10mm is far more than I generate slinging it back by hand. Maybe I need to workout more....

Now for a mini-review. I am very pleased overall with this pistol, although I only had 50 rounds of ammo to play with. I had three jams with the round nosed up steeply and not chambering. No biggie. It will need several hundred more to get anywhere close to broken in.

It was a hair off on the sights, but the adjustable rear came in handy and I got it dead on with a couple clicks. I like the sight picture on the adjustables shipping on the Target models. They are a bit clearer than the standard sights, although I would prefer no dots.

Accuracy was fine No problem busting cans from 10 to 25 yds out. It grouped nicely on the center x of a paper target at 15. It has a good single action trigger which probably helped. I may replace it with a single-action only later.

The porting on this model worked quite well as I expected given the pressure of the 10mm. Sights simply returned to the target on their own. I don't feel that 10mm recoils excessively anyway, so this just makes an already manageable pistol even more so.

On the whole, a good purchase. I may have to get another one in the stock blue setup. Now to lay in a pile of 10mm ammo....

GR

Sean Smith
January 11, 2003, 01:45 PM
The weight and grip shape of the 10mm Witness *really* helps with the felt recoil. This is probably its biggest virtue of all, and kind of like the Bren Ten in that regard. Even unported and with an underweight spring it was arguably the softest-shooting 10mm around.

A heavier spring might also help the reliability a bit, so small amounts of resistance with the bullet going up the ramp won't tie the gun up. Just a possibility.

Mike Irwin
January 11, 2003, 04:47 PM
Unfortunately, with how undersprung they are, the ejected 10mm cases are almost as lethal as the bullets! :)

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