Civil War a Reality in the Future of America?


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Nightwing
December 2, 2007, 12:21 PM
Ok. First post. Short term gun owner here. I've recently purchased my 4th firearm. Came from an Anti-Gun family, and as I grew older I had a realization of the importance of owning a firearm. Found like minded people to get me familiar with guns, and help me understand my rights. I have started stockpiling ammo when I can afford to. Just for a worst case scenario. But that's not the point of this post.

I look back at men like Thomas Jefferson in specific and I think... "That man had no agenda. He simply had strong convictions that came from intense thought on the subjects he discussed". The man was not a fool. In fact... we NEED another Thomas Jefferson (in my humble opinion (IMHO)).
"None but an armed nation can dispense with a standing army. To keep ours armed and disciplined is therefore at all times important." --Thomas Jefferson, 1803.

"It is more a subject of joy [than of regret] that we have so few of the desperate characters which compose modern regular armies. But it proves more forcibly the necessity of obliging every citizen to be a soldier; this was the case with the Greeks and Romans and must be that of every free State. Where there is no oppression there can be no pauper hirelings." --Thomas Jefferson to James Monroe, 1813.

"One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them."
--Thomas Jefferson to George Washington, 1796. ME 9:341

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms . . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes . . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
--Thomas Jefferson, quoting Cesare Beccaria in On Crimes and Punishment (1764).

The point I'm getting to is this:

Are we headed for Civil War, or is the greater of the population of the United States too affraid to stand up? Or are they too blind? Or do they just not care?
I choose to fight for freedom, and if I saw a group marching to city hall or to the capitol with their firearms to fight for their CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS... I'd be right there with them.

I'm sure you've talked about it a lot in here, but it is my first time i nthis great community so please.... humor me with a discussion. HOW IMPORTANT IS THE CONSTITUTION TO AMERICA, AND WILL IT'S PEOPLE STAND UP FOR THEIR RIGHTS AGAINST THE OVER-INVOLVED GOVERNMENT?

Discuss... Thanks guys. Good to meet all of you.

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b-rad
December 2, 2007, 12:48 PM
"Are we headed for Civil War, or is the greater of the population of the United States too affraid to stand up? Or are they too blind? Or do they just not care?
I choose to fight for freedom, and if I saw a group marching to city hall or to the capitol with their firearms to fight for their CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS... I'd be right there with them."

Even if enough people actualy wanted to fight when the time came. That would be suicide. A large group of "terrorists" would be a snack for an apache. The only way a second civil war could be fought is by each of those hunters with scoped deer rifles, Hiding in every window, tree, and hill. Glorious battles between army and the rebelion would be a blood bath.

I do think the time may come quicker then we think

Nightwing
December 2, 2007, 12:52 PM
^ I have a few ex-military friends that have old me many of their trainers during military training PREACHED the importance of gun ownership, and he strgonly believes that a good majority of the US military would turn on it's own government to fight for gun control.
What do you think of that? Seriously? Becasue I have nothing but stories to base my opinions on. So what are your opinions?

BMacklem
December 3, 2007, 09:34 PM
"^ I have a few ex-military friends that have old me many of their trainers during military training PREACHED the importance of gun ownership, and he strgonly believes that a good majority of the US military would turn on it's own government to fight for gun control.
What do you think of that? Seriously? Becasue I have nothing but stories to base my opinions on. So what are your opinions?"

You mean against gun control....right?

I would certainly hope that a majority of the armed service personel would not obey an unlawful order to fire upon civilians in the US, or try to do something unconstitutional like confiscate arms from the rest of us.

collateral
December 3, 2007, 10:14 PM
It is only a matter of time before they try to confiscate all firearms. I firmly believe that, with both major political parties pretty much standing for the same things, and more of our rights being erased, it's an inevitability.

Now, what each gun owner chooses to do when door to door searches start is up to them. I know what I'm going to do. It will be up to the American people.

Our political climate is really really messy right now. Unrest is growing. We have a government that doesn't listen to the people, an dollar that is plummeting, and a war that has no forseeable end.

If Americans will allow their country to go the way of Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia, then no, there probably wont be a civil war.

Browning
December 3, 2007, 10:34 PM
Do I think that there will be a civil war in the US eventually? Yeah, probably.

In regard to having an outright war on our soil our luck as a nation has held together for much longer than most countries have a right to expect (since the War Between the States/War of Northern Aggression take your pick on which title you like better). So I imagine that our luck will evetually run out and that something will happen especially since we seem so divided as a nation on alot of issues (immigration/a national language/gun control/taxes/abortion/personal freedom/NAFTA/a possible North American Union with Canada, the US and Mexico all in one nation/the US Military being the Worlds policemen etc etc).

I don't know if I'll be alive by then, but I figure that we'll have a war on our soil in the future. Look at poor Europe, they got two World Wars with in just a matter of just a couple decades of each other. We've basically had peace since 1865 except for a few riots, some raids by Mexican bandits a little after the turn of the last century, some Indian attacks and the Japanese dropping bombs on the Pacific Northwest during WWII in hot air balloons. Other than that we've been pretty good about not fouling our own nest with war or armed conflict. Our numbers gotta come up sooner or later. Plus it just looks like it's headed in that direction anyway with all this immigration stuff in the American Southwest.

If you haven't read it, try this book Civil War 2 by Thomas Chittum.

Alot of his predictions are coming true as it was written in the mid 1990's.

I found it in the reading list in the Boston Gun Bible (which is also an excellent book).

Civil War 2 at Amazon.com
http://www.amazon.com/Civil-War-II-Breakup-America/dp/0929408179

A PDF version of the book Civil War 2.
http://www.timebomb2000.com/misc/CWII.pdf

b-rad
December 3, 2007, 11:15 PM
everybody talks aboutg when they come to your door, you think they will come when your home..................
they will come when your at work or at the store, your guns will be gone and your house locked down.
Now if you carry on your person or in your car will you attempt to take back your house from armed and armored police by yourself with just your carry pistol or beat up truck gun ?

TexasRifleman
December 4, 2007, 12:11 AM
they will come when your at work or at the store, your guns will be gone and your house locked down.

They are gonna need help. What's the latest statistic I saw, 60 percent of Americans own a firearm, something like that.

There are gonna be more of "us" than "them" if they come, I doubt we're all gonna be at the office that day.........

birdbustr
December 4, 2007, 12:45 AM
Personally I don't think there will ever be another Civil War. Uprisings, or perhaps a coup, but not an all out Civil War. If guns are taken away from the people, then there maybe something close. I don't think some states would go one way and others go the other.

I agree with those that say that there would be many in the military that would refuse to fire against those who are fighting to keep their rights to bear arms. Don't think everyone would just roll over and do what they are told. It's quite a different matter when you tell most American Military members to fire on another American. It sure as he!! better be something different. Almost without exception, that military member should be wondering asking themself "is this a lawful order". If they don't believe it to be then they could make a valid defense that they are not obligated to follow an unlawful order. When you look at the term "unlawful", the military's "law" that they are sworn to uphold is the constitution. So let that be more food for thought.

Thumper
December 4, 2007, 01:01 AM
If only 1% of the 80,000,000 gun owners in the US stood up to fight, we still almost double the size of the standing Army...and remember, the vast majority of the Army works in a support role.

A shooting war with an army of 800,000 is a loser for the Government.

Oh, and as a former soldier myself, most wouldn't fight the People. We take an oath to defend THE CONSTITUTION (not the government) against ALL enemies, foreign and domestic.

FieroCDSP
December 4, 2007, 01:18 AM
I don't see a civil war. An uprising is cerainly possible. A few hundred-thousand PO'd Americans that have had their Constitutionally preserved rights deemed null and void, that would certainly put the perpetrating power-mongers against the wall. Most Americans that could actually fight in such an uprising would fight for the Constitution, the rest of America would either fall in behind with support or wait for the regime to fight them off.

Lets face it. There are two types of people when it comes to fundamental rights: Those that fight, and those that dig their own graves.

doc2rn
December 4, 2007, 01:24 AM
Thumper you beat me to it again, oh well +1 to what was stated above.:rolleyes: Most of us who have blead for our rights take them a little more serious. Plus we get more practice than 50% of the armed forces. I once new a 300 who couldn't hit the broad side of a barn from the inside. No joke they made him the company clerk.

collateral
December 4, 2007, 03:07 AM
I dont think they would come during the day. I think they would continue in the tradition of coming late at night. The germans did, the russians did.

illspirit
December 4, 2007, 03:14 AM
I think a civil war of some sort is pretty close. But it probably won't start with a gun grab. Given the level of partisanship and racial tension in the country, coupled with growing distrust of government from all sides, the next civil war will probably start as a bunch of riots snowballing into anarchy. Whether said riots start as an open-borders rally like the one which shut down Los Angeles last year, or a bunch of "hippies" getting violent outside a political convention or whatever is any body's guess.

Either way, the nation hasn't really been this divided since the '60s. And if you factor in the unknown of which way the Heller case could go, it could almost be the proverbial "perfect storm" waiting to happen. Whatever the case, it probably wouldn't be a "normal" civil war with easily distinguishable sides or States fighting. But rather a bunch of separate groups all fighting each other on different fronts.

takhtakaal
December 4, 2007, 04:04 AM
Frankly, if they do attempt a "grab," it'll be the federal deputizing of state and local LEOs from adjoining, non-gun friendly states, and it'll be quietly done, inasmuch as is possible. They will have seized credit card records from the largest ammunition wholesalers and the biggest on-line firearms dealers, and they will be scrutinizing these to make hit-lists in descending order of importance. Once they have eliminated the largest concentrations of things on their list of concerns, they'll then turn to reviewing 4473s before they start their next phase, which may very well be some form of amnesty before more aggressive seizures. I think it's coming, and I don't think that it will be done in such a way as to allow much resistance at all. Count on 4 am surprises.

308win
December 4, 2007, 08:17 AM
Many people own guns for which no record exists establishing that they own these guns, e.g. many gun owners have guns that were acquired before records were kept or the records have long since disappeared because the seller went out of business 20, 30, 40 years ago, etc. If these guns are kept in a location apart from the owner's home/business/etc. they will be difficult to locate and confiscate.

I believe a more likely scenario is civil unrest triggered by economic or social events that escalates into conflict between different segments of the population. The authorities will establish martial law and seize guns and other property, conduct mass incarcerations - perhaps by physically isolating whole population areas - under cover of controlling the violence; and, the majority of the populace will go along. The National Guards of the various states and the Regular Army and the Army Reserve will play a role; this has already happened during the Hoover administration.

Our rights of gun ownership will continue to be limited by law and regulation that is deemed reasonable regardless of the outcome of Heller and legal actions yet to come. We will reach a point where the laws and regulations will become so onerous that gun ownership will cease to be an option. It may take a couple of generations but the day will surely come.

I hope I am wrong but I believe that gun owners have reached our zenith as far as the ability to influence policy. Future events from Columbine type events to civil unrest will push the populace to the point that highly restrictive laws and regulations will be enacted and upheld.

BigG
December 4, 2007, 08:34 AM
I think a lot of social rifts which have always existed in American society have been masked by feel good optimism post WWII but when times get hard they will emerge again. Everyone looks for a scapegoat at times like that.

Texas Moon
December 4, 2007, 09:27 AM
I don't think it will happen.

As long as it doesn't interfere with the sheepeoples X-Box time, cell phone reception or air conditioning they'll never get off lard duffs.
Heck most of them don't want to be bothered with voting now!

ojibweindian
December 4, 2007, 09:33 AM
Are we headed for Civil War, or is the greater of the population of the United States too affraid to stand up? Or are they too blind? Or do they just not care?


We're not headed for "civil war" in the manner of which I think you're speaking. There won't be any North against South, Republican against Demorcrat, Communist against Capitalist, or whatever.

It's going to be, in the not too distant future, "everybody against everybody"; As kids "everybody against everybody" was a game involving the boys in the neighborhood, and a football. The football would be tossed in the air, we'd all scramble for it, and the kid coming up with it would run and scramble like hell, because the rest of us were coming after him to clean his clock :D. Whomever tackled the ball carrier would have the honor of being the next one creamed.

Man, those were fun times :D

Anyway, what'll end up happening is that soon, our economy is going to go Tango Uniform. There's a whole bunch of analysis out there as to why, but to sum it up, the sub-prime fiasco has dried up short term credit. The Fed's been creating a pant-load of money to get things jump-started. Short term, that's good; it's acting like a grease in the economy, to a point, to keep things going. Long term, it's terrible. For an example of terrible, google the terms "Weimar Republic economy" and "Argentina crisis". The links you go to will describe what the US will most likely face in the next 12-24 months.

When things get that desperate; it pretty much will become a survivalist "everybody against everybody". People with next to nothing to eat, nowhere to sleep, cold, tired, stressed out, with kids crying from hunger and disease, are going to get, to understate, testy. Violent crime will likely skyrocket; people will kill to get something to eat, to keep warm, to feed and clothe their family, and to get out of the weather.

It won't be pretty, but I believe this is the nature of the next "civil war". It's coming, and sooner than many realize.

Double Naught Spy
December 4, 2007, 09:51 AM
Not only may there be another civil war at some point in the future (I just love open-ended timeless predictions), but the US will also cease to exist. Historically, all countries fail at some point. Some take days, years, decades, centuries, but then they fail.

Countries are sort of like people. Sooner or later, we all die.

TexasRifleman
December 4, 2007, 09:53 AM
but the US will also cease to exist.

Personally I think that happened when the Kelo decision came down. We're already living in the next iteration of the US, not the original.

Cmdr. Gravez0r
December 4, 2007, 10:08 AM
Are we headed for Civil War, or is the greater of the population of the United States too affraid to stand up? Or are they too blind? Or do they just not care?
I choose to fight for freedom, and if I saw a group marching to city hall or to the capitol with their firearms to fight for their CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS... I'd be right there with them.

Big Brother is watching. Be prudent. I'm deadly serious.

Cmdr. Gravez0r
December 4, 2007, 10:13 AM
And I just wanna say...in the event the S does HTF...the South will be safe. "Yay" for high firearms ownership per capita.

ojibweindian
December 4, 2007, 10:19 AM
No place will be "safe"; the South is under exceptional drought conditions. So, while we may have a bunch of guns, we can't drink them to re-hydrate.

Harley Quinn
December 4, 2007, 11:33 AM
And I just wanna say...in the event the S does HTF...the South will be safe. "Yay" for high firearms ownership per capita.
*********************

New Orleans was a fine example of it:what: So when is this going to happen:uhoh:

Lack of organization will be the factor. Sporadic insurrection maybe similar to what is happening now?

If the army and other groups are not here who will contain the subverts:uhoh:

The ability/desire is important. If you have no ability to grow a garden and keep it going, it will not be productive, no matter how many tools you have in the shed.

Shadowangel
December 4, 2007, 05:16 PM
I don't think it'll be anytime soon, but I do think eventually we'll suffer a pretty major conflict. Simply put, I don't believe the majority of Americans would do anything unless personally put into an uncomfortable position. As long as we have stocked grocery stores and cable tv, there won't be any kind of uprising.

mljdeckard
December 4, 2007, 05:27 PM
I'm not reading the whole thread,

First of all, do not underestimate an armed insurgency. The one in Iraq is doing plenty of damage despite facing overwhelming force. The point of an insurgency is not necessarily to win, but rather to cause unacceptable expense.

I don't see one large civil war anytime soon, but rather a lot of small situations like Katrina. I think it's much more important to be prepared for the next 72 hours than the next 3 years.

I'll tell you WHEN it will happen. When people go hungry, they'll fight. They will grumble about taxes, disarmament, the cable being out, etc, but when they don't know where their next meal will come from, they will get violent.

glockman19
December 4, 2007, 05:35 PM
History repeats itself.

Read the Fall of the Roman Empire, (Edward Gibbon, in his famous study The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire (1776).

The book is famous not only because it is extraordinarily well written, but also because Gibbon offers an explanation for why the Roman Empire fell. This is one of the great historical questions, and, because of the relative lack of written records from the time, one of the most difficult to undertake. Gibbon was not the first to theorise about this. In fact most of his ideas are directly taken from Roman moralists of the 4th and 5th centuries who wrote about it at the time; nor would he be the last; see for example Henri Pirenne's Thesis of the early 20th century.

According to Gibbon, the Roman Empire succumbed to barbarian invasions because of a loss of civic virtue among its citizens.[3] They had become lazy and soft, outsourcing their duties to defend their Empire to barbarian mercenaries, (BLACKWATER) who then became so numerous and ingrained that they were able to take over the Empire. Romans, he believed, had become effeminate, unwilling to live a tougher, "manly" military lifestyle.

Urbana John
December 4, 2007, 06:07 PM
Seems like there is "alot" of talk about another civil war, and what each one us would do------Well the first thing I'd do is find as many members of THR and try to make a "stand" of some kind against "whoever"!!

Wouldn't it be a real BITCH is everyone was on their own----defending their property against anyone who steps on it----then find out the guy/people you were fighting were members on here.

I think while we can still communicate with our "puters" we ought to get "something" going a plan of some kind so we could have a "central meeting" place.

If I had several hundred acres, with woods, wild game, a stream and etc., and if I had a GPS device, I would post my location, just in case.

But maybe that wouldn't work either,,,might be someone one here that's a SPY!!

BUT WE DO NEED A PLAN!!

Urbana John

ilbob
December 4, 2007, 06:11 PM
The Roman empire did pretty well for almost 1500 years (at least the eastern half) after the Roman Republic that lasted 500 years. We are only a few hundred years old. We have a ways to go.

If 1% of gun owners actually took on the political system at the ballot box and in the political arena, we would win big time.

Cosmoline
December 4, 2007, 06:19 PM
Are we headed for Civil War, or is the greater of the population of the United States too affraid to stand up?

Civil War over *WHAT*? You quote Jefferson, but I'm not sure what you're getting at. Are you talking about the RKBA? With the growth of the federal government? With some specific policy? Civil wars don't just happen, there's some set of issues that can't get resolved in the political arena. Whether I or anyone else would fight and what side we'd be on depends on what the issues and situation is.

These vague rants and chest-pounding are absolutely pointless.

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