Zouave rifle musket


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sandy4570
July 24, 2003, 02:07 PM
My Zauve rifle musket will hit 9 inches high and 9 inchest to the right with patch round ball and 80 grains of Pyrodex RS. If I decrease the charge to 40 and 50 grain it will hit about 6 inchest high but still way to the right. I have to aim between two target frame in order for the shot to land anywhere in the paper. What can I do to correct windage and adjustment on this rifle . The front sight is solder on and the rear sight is held by 2 holes disk of some sort and probably solder on as well. Does Minie or Maxie ball will improve the windage or elevation of this rifle ? This rifle supposed to be one of the most accurate and highly prized in the Civil war next to the Whitworth .

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Poodleshooter
July 24, 2003, 03:05 PM
-Get someone else to shoot it in order to see if it's you flinching or the rifle.
-Try a minieball. That musket was made to shoot conicals with 60-70grs of blackpowder.
-Try real blackpowder. I usually get lower velocity and point of impact from real blackpowder.

Are the sights visibly off from the point of aim and impact?

4v50 Gary
July 24, 2003, 03:35 PM
Go Minie like it was suppose to shoot. I've shot patched round balls in my Enfield Musketoon and it sprays the old round ball all over the place. Put a minie in it and now you've got a sizzler.

Mike Weber
July 24, 2003, 04:45 PM
Gary:
how do you like that Enfield Musketoon? I've taken elk with mine and its one of my favorites. I agree go with the minnies These guns were not designed for patched round ball.

4v50 Gary
July 24, 2003, 09:20 PM
I used the two band and was shooting at 350 yards (Carson City public range). It shot pretty consistent considering offhand & target was a paper cup on the hillside. After about 20 plus rounds, I switched to the Musketoon. Darn if that short barrel gun didn't do the same as the 33" two band. I was surprised and a happy camper.

BTW, bullet is from a Parker Hale mould made by RCBS under the Parker Hale name. Lube was SPG and I used 60 or 65 grains 2F GOEX.

So, in response to your question Mike, I love that Musketoon and one of these days want to bag bambi with it. I'm even willing to try Black Bear (but I want back-up). Those .58 cal. minies must do an awful lot of damage.

Sir Galahad
July 24, 2003, 09:33 PM
This is good to know. A Musketoon is on my "to get" list.

I read some Civil War medical accounts and according to those, the minie was very damaging. It was not just due to the medicine of the era that arms and legs struck in the bone by a minie had to be amputated. According to these accounts, the minie upon hitting bone would flatten out and completely shatter the bone and the bone fragments themselves would become secondary missiles and cause damage of their own.

4v50 Gary
July 24, 2003, 09:50 PM
Sir Galahad. You've read right about the damage caused by the Minie. The 7.62 mm Nato is much more "humane" - especially if it just passes through the victim. Drop into Chimbarozo Medical Museum (National Park site in Richmond, VA) and you'll see several "surgeon" kits. You can go down to the hardware store to "recreate" your own.

BTW Mike, in reference to our discussion at 3F, the vast majority of sharpshooters on either side were skirmishers who either guarded flanks during a march or acted as vanguard. In the attack, they would even precede the regular skirmishers. In some cases (Fort Steadman), the Confederate sharpshooter was used as a storm troopers (ala Gen. Hurtier (sp) of WW I fame). Very few sharpshooters "per se" had scoped or target rifles and these generally refrained from joining in the charges (couldn't risk losing that rifle).

Mike Weber
July 24, 2003, 10:02 PM
I'll second that Parker Hale Mold

Gary those .58 Minnies have dropped two fair sized bull elk for me. They both dropped in their tracks like they had been poleaxed. I'm pushing them along with 75gr of FFg GOEX. Little bit hot for target work but its been plenty accurate as a hunting load. I prefer to stalk in to within 100 yards of the game. This was in the thick brushy country of western Oregon where the long cross the canyon shots aren't neccessary. For the longer range type of hunting I have my .338 Win Mag. I wouldn't be the least afraid to use the Enfield on black bear wouldn't be my first choice though if I were tangling with a grizzly.

4v50 Gary
July 24, 2003, 10:05 PM
The Enfield will stop a griz. Trick is to have a whole squad or platoon with you and it's not going to be firing by file but a good volley.

Never mind the elk, now I want to get bullwinkle with mine. Gotta get some time off to blast away at one.

fallingblock
July 25, 2003, 01:56 AM
Who do you reckon is offering the better quality Musketoon these days?

I wonder if Navy Arms J.P. Murray Carbine is equal in quality to the Enfield?

http://www.navyarms.com/html/cw-confed.html

My great-grandpa (T.J. Drane) was in the Tenth Kentucky Cavalry and his Enfield bayonet came down to me when I was 10.
I'd like to see what sort of shooting can be done with these short minie-chuckers:)

Sir Galahad
July 25, 2003, 01:15 PM
I've heard lots of good things about the J.P. Murray artillery carbine. If you look at it closely, it's basically a "sawed-off" 1841 Mississsippi Rifle. I've heard of plenty deer dropped by the Murray. It is my understanding that the Parker Hale is the best Enfield.

Gary, there is an older book, written in the 1940s or 50s I recall, titled "Civil War Muzzleloaders" or "Civil War Guns" (next time I go to the library, I'll get the exact title and author.) It was this book that had a chapter discussing the wounds of the minie. If I recall correctly, it was also this book that had a few photos of a shoot where guys with .58 Springfields went up against Marines with M1 Garands in a "stake-busting" challenge. I think the stakes were 2x4s. Anyway, the stakes only took one or two shots from a .58 to get flush with the ground. It took the Garands several shots to break the stake.


"I love the smell of blackpowder in the morning.....it smells like...history."

sandy4570
July 25, 2003, 02:41 PM
Thank for the advice . I let someone shoot my Zauve and he even flinch more than I did . I try this off the rest sand bag at 5o yards so I am pretty sure I am not moving much. I will order some minie ball from Dixie arms to try it out . I want the musketoon too, it will be my next rifle musket when I have some fund aviable.

RON in PA
July 25, 2003, 02:53 PM
The Zouave was my first muzlzle loader back around 1969-1970. Shot it a lot with minnies but got my best accuracy with a patched round ball over 2 Fg. They do shoot high esp. at 50 yards because the sight is for 100 yards and because of the low velocity of the projectile they have a high trajectory. The solution to this was to drill a small hole in the rear sight and use it as a peep.

fallingblock
July 26, 2003, 03:56 AM
I'll pursue that J.P. Murray carbine:D

Mike Weber
July 26, 2003, 03:58 AM
there is an older book, written in the 1940s or 50s I recall, titled "Civil War Muzzleloaders" or "Civil War Guns" (next time I go to the library, I'll get the exact title and author.)
Sir Galahad I've got this book Its called Civil War guns I'll have to dig it out of my library tomorrow I'll get back to you with the name of the author and the publisher.

The solution to this was to drill a small hole in the rear sight and use it as a peep.
Ron:
I've seen this done with several of the civil war rifled musket reproductions.

4v50 Gary
July 26, 2003, 11:22 AM
If it's Civil War Guns, I think it was written by William Edwards and was originally published by Stackpole Books in 1960. It's a good book and well worth the time & effort to read. The newer edition has higher quality paper and is worth buying. I bought it direct from him.

BTW falling block, not sure of the quality of the Murray Carbine. That's something that has to be checked out by examination. Even among the reproduction Enfields, there's dickering as to Armi-Sport v. Euroarms v. Parker Hale (Italian made). The best repro Enfields are the British made Parker Hales.

sandy4570
July 26, 2003, 01:19 PM
Ron in Pa Thank for the great idea !!! Why I have not thought of that . I assume the normal hand drill and bit should be able to drill the hole through this sight leaf .

Mike Weber
July 26, 2003, 06:02 PM
If it's Civil War Guns, I think it was written by William Edwards and was originally published by Stackpole Books in 1960. It's a good book and well worth the time & effort to read. The newer edition has higher quality paper and is worth buying. I bought it direct from him.

Thats the book Gary. An excellent read and some very good refference material in that book. I've got the older printing of the book.

RON in PA
July 27, 2003, 01:23 AM
Sandy: If possible remove the rear sight leaf and use a drill press.

sandy4570
July 27, 2003, 03:14 PM
Ron I don't have a drill press but I will clamp the leaf on the table so I can drill it through. Thank for the idea ,I think this might fix the elevation problem .I will order more leaf from Dixie arms and try to drill an off set hole to correct the windage problem.

fallingblock
July 28, 2003, 01:32 AM
Not being able to see firearms before buying them is a problem here in the middle of Australia:(

I've heard from several sources that the British Parker Hales were the best.

Guess I'll have to wait for the next trip to a capital city

gunsmither
July 29, 2003, 04:36 PM
:) I owned a Parker Hale Musketoon years ago. It was a beautifully made weapon, but I could not find a bullet that it liked. It had very shallow rifling, if my memory is correct. :confused:

Most of the time I could not get it to hit a 2' x 2' target at 25 yds. :cuss: I tried a bunch of different styles of Minnies and solids; never tried a roundball. Gave up and sold it to a re- enactor. Beautiful gun, but I couldn't find the right bullet for it.

I read in the 1976(?) Gun Digest, or some such book, that the PH bullet/mold was the only one that would work well in this gun, but I never found one of those very pricey molds.

If you buy one of these beautiful guns, I hope you have better luck than I did getting it to shoot.:banghead: Safe Shooting! - "gunsmither" :)

Mike Weber
July 29, 2003, 07:29 PM
Joe!!!
How the Heck Have You Been? Did you guys ever get a CAS club going over there in your area?. I just shipped off one of my fancy holsters for an 1851 Navy to a pard over on the peninsula. Too bad you couldn't find a PH mold for your musketoon. Next to my Whitworth That Enfield Musketoon os my favorite smokepole.
Mike

4v50 Gary
July 29, 2003, 08:39 PM
Darn if I didn't know the PH was finicky about the minies it takes. I recall that the Brits use to use the Pritchett Ball that was a solid heavy slug. Supposedly it could penetrate mild iron at 100 yards. :eek: Rapine Bullet Mold Company makes one, but its shape is a bit off from the true Pritchett.

BTW Mike, tell me about your experience with your Whitworth. Is it a first generation or a later one? What mould & how much powder.

Mike Weber
July 29, 2003, 09:27 PM
Gary:
My Whitworth is an early Parker Hale that I picked back in the early 80's. 70 to 80 gr charges of FFg seem to work best in this rifle. This is one of the few rifles that I spend the extra money and feed a diet of Swiss brand powder. I've got the Dyson mold from DGW that casts a hexagonal bullet. This is a tricky mold when you first start using them but once you get the hang of them they cast an excellent bullet. This one casts a 575 gr bullet. I haven't gotten involved with the CW reenacting scene again since I've been back in the northwest. But I've been shooting this rifle in some long range side matches against Sharps and Remington Rolling Block shooters. I've been holding my own against the BP cartridge gun shooters out to the 300 yard line. Really surprising when you consider I'm using open iron sites, and they have mid and long range tang sites. Many of them have also spent a lot of money having their rifles custom built and mine is just an out of the box rifle. All I've done to it is stone the trigger a little bit. Sorry I haven't gotten back to our thread on FFF. I've been busy with a Pow Wow over in Idaho the past few days. One of the few opportunities that I get to stuff myself with Fried Bread and Buffalo Roast.

gunsmither
July 30, 2003, 10:30 PM
Hi again Mike! We're dying with the 90 degree heat over here! Not used to it like you Spokaners! As far as I know, there has been no CAS shoots at Pt. Townsend. My latest trip is a .17HMR CZ 452 with a Leupold 4.5-14x Tactical mounted on it. It'll do 1/2" groups for 5 shots at a hundred yards! My PH Musketoon wouldnt do that at 10 feet! If I can figure out how to reload that .17HMR with 4F Goex, I'll be in Hog Heaven! :D

I could never "Tune" my Musketoon! Needed the money, so I sold it. I hope the fellow in Geogia who bought it was able to do better than I did, but he said he was just going to shoot blanks. They sure are a well made rifle. Glad to hear yours shoots! You must have the right mold.

I posted a link to some Whitworth "threads" that are on gunboards.com for you over at proshooter.com. I corresponded for awhile with "tac foley" over in England, who is on that thread talking about his Whitworth trials and tribulations! Seems he had a devil of a time getting it to shoot.

Safe Shootin! Joe :D

Mike Weber
July 31, 2003, 03:17 AM
Joe:
Latest weather reports are saying that it will be cooling off to 97 degrees here tomorrow. I've got forest fires burning all around me. Had to put off a prospecting trip over in Idaho due to the fire restrictions. I know Terry Foley from the Civil War Guns Message Board. Sounds like he's having about the same kinds of problems with his Whitworth as you were having with your Musketoon. Been building up my Remington revolver collection I've got four New Model Armies now. I've been thinking about trimming a couple of them down to Sheriff's model length. I might head over your way for some winter Steelhead fiishing this year. I'll give you a holler if I do I always bring along several BP guns as I've got some friends who are BP shooters over on the peninsula.

gunsmither
July 31, 2003, 01:33 PM
:) Only 97 degrees ? Gosh, it's cooling off ! Coming back from Cody three years ago, we had to detour around a number of fires to cross over in Idaho. It was really bad. Sounds like it's really bad again this year. Good thing we don't get much lightning here, or this area could be in big trouble, as it hasn't rained in month's. Give me a holler when your heading over, and we'll burn some of the Holy Black Stuff! Safe Shootin! Joe :D

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