New .223 autoloader?


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Felonious Monk
January 3, 2003, 03:47 PM
Found this over at KTOG:

Just got Guns and Ammo magazine for Feb and it has a half page ad (pg 37) for their new 5.56mm Sport Utility Rifle.

(Quote)
Kel-Tec's new SU-16 Rifle

The SU-16 is a gas operated, self-loading rifle in .223 Remington caliber. Several unique feaures make the SU-16 a versatile sporting firearm.

-Integrated Picatinny rail for mounting different sight systems.
-The forend folds down to form a bipod for increased accuracy.
-The stock can store spare magazines.
-The stock and trigger mechanism can be rotated forward for added safety and to facilitate storage or carry under extreme conditions.

The SU-16 utilizes proven M-16 breech locking and feeding system.

Technical specifications

Weight unloaded 5lbs
Length open 37"
Length closed 26"
Barrel Length 18"

(End Quote)

Please, Lord: Let the other new Kel-Tec be a diminutive .380 single stack! :o

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762x51
January 3, 2003, 03:50 PM
Hmm...interesting. No info on their website yet. Any pictures? Hope it doesnt look like the Sub 2000.

Big Al
January 3, 2003, 04:32 PM
one word - PICS:D

Betty
January 3, 2003, 04:37 PM
If the second one's a handgun, does this mean I have to move this thread back to General, or split it into Handguns? :p

Felonious Monk
January 3, 2003, 04:46 PM
Gen'rul, ma'am.
Least, that's my best guess. :uhoh:

Blackhawk
January 3, 2003, 04:47 PM
Let the other new Kel-Tec be a diminutive .380 single stack! I'm with you, FM!

But I'd be even more tickled if it was a P-32 sized 9mm, a "Mighty Mouse" gun!

Rohrbaugh's P-32 sized 9mm R-9 mouser is going to debut at the SHOT Show, and I'm going to get one of those, but they're too pretty to be beaters, so I'll take one in Kel-Tec Tactical too, please!

Betty
January 3, 2003, 04:59 PM
P-32 sized 9mm

Ouch!

USGuns
January 3, 2003, 05:06 PM
Anyone have a scanner they can scan that ad in and let's see a pic of this thing! :D

Pendragon
January 3, 2003, 05:14 PM
OMG!

That sounds so tasty!

I would like to buy a little EBR in .223 when I get out of GOH.

I like how the Sub2000 folds up and it sounds like this gun does the same thing - and the evil geniuses decided to make it take AR 15 mags so people can have more than 10 rounds.

Kel-Tec is a smart company.

firestar
January 3, 2003, 05:14 PM
WE NEED PICS!

Onslaught
January 3, 2003, 05:27 PM
Sounds interesting, but I'm with 762.... Sub2000 is FUGLY!

And another thing... I SURE hope this thing takes AR mags!

Matt G
January 3, 2003, 06:01 PM
I looked around, but found surprisingly little info about it, even at KTOG. There was This thread (http://www.ktog.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=2926), with a short description of the rifle.

Kel Tec is smart about magazines: they're in the gun-making bidness, not the mag-making biz. IMHO, the smartest move about the Sub2000 (which I'm not actually that big a fan of, for its own sake) was making versions that would take common pistol mags. (And, of course, providing a really small carbine for folks in an area that disallows ownership of pistols.)

I would be shocked if they didn't make this rifle to take AR mags.

I want a .22 conversion kit made for my P-11, and a .357 Sig kit for the .40 (which I understand [from KTOG] is in the works).

I'd love to see Kel Tec make a scaled-down single-stack version of the P-11, perhaps with M39 mags?

Chris Rhines
January 3, 2003, 06:35 PM
This sounds very interesting. Please, anyone with more info, don't keep us in the dark...

- Chris

roscoe
January 3, 2003, 06:37 PM
Is it just me or do these guys seem to have some stones - coming out with a brand new EBR, and making all the most concealable and affordable handguns. Just the kind of thing to drive anti-gunners bananas.

Rangie
January 3, 2003, 06:59 PM
Is it just me or do these guys seem to have some stones - coming out with a brand new EBR, and making all the most concealable and affordable handguns. Just the kind of thing to drive anti-gunners bananas.

Agreed!

Wish I could buy some stock in this operation.

MAKOwner
January 3, 2003, 06:59 PM
Damn, this sounds awesome if it doesn't look like total ass (and takes AR mags, still be a little cool if it doesn't though...) I didn't see a new EBR coming from Kel-Tec.

MUST HAVE PICS! Someone scan it.

Al Thompson
January 3, 2003, 07:23 PM
Yeah, I know, it's not a folding stock, but for a .223 for small spaces/storage, they may have it pegged.

Just to support innovative products and 2A fortitude, I'll probably buy one.

This company is doing right by us.

Bill St. Clair
January 3, 2003, 08:09 PM
Scanned from p. 37 of the February 2003 issue of Guns & Ammo

http://billstclair.com/blog/keltec-su16.jpg

Higgins
January 3, 2003, 08:27 PM
It's so fugly . . . and yet, so beautiful.

Any idea on the price point Kel-Tech is aiming at for this thing? I wanted an Armalite AR-180B because they initially were supposed to be relatively cheap - which they aren't.

If this thing undercuts AR-15 and the AR-180B prices by a couple of hundred dollars or so, like the Mini-14, then sign me up.

Keep the good stuff coming. And to think, I was afraid I'd miss out on stuff like this with TFL gone. Thanks Oleg.

Deadman
January 3, 2003, 08:38 PM
I want one! I want one! I want one!....
Oh wait I live in Australia :mad:

Looks like a mix between an M1 Carbine and a Bar. :cool:

Hopefully it doesn't turn out to be a riccety piece of junk.

Triad
January 3, 2003, 08:46 PM
Looks like a AR magwell. I'm pretty sure thats a 30 rnd. mag in the buttstock too.

Chainsaw
January 3, 2003, 08:58 PM
I would definitely want to buy one even more so if it took AR mags. Does anyone know this for sure?

Redlg155
January 3, 2003, 09:18 PM
Hmmm..Junk that silly forearm/bipod arrangement and mount a pistol grip forward like the M60 and you will have a super looking weapon.

Lets hope it has a good METAL trigger that is a single action and not a silly long double action type.

Good Shooting
RED

Penman
January 3, 2003, 09:46 PM
I think the Borg on TNG use those...

m.i.sanders
January 3, 2003, 09:52 PM
I'd like to see one in person. I'll agree with Redlg155 that it needs a pistol grip, but I kinda like that integrated bi-pod thing. That might come in handy at some point.

USGuns
January 3, 2003, 09:58 PM
If they had put in a pistol grip along with the folding stock then wouldn't it be classified as an "assault weapon" or some other silliness like that?

The Sub2000 may be short on looks but I love mine. A blast to shoot, almost no recoil, affordable to buy, shoots affordable 9mm ammo and is just about the perfect home-defense weapon. IMHO.

starfuryzeta
January 3, 2003, 10:58 PM
That thing does look like a mini-BAR.

Soap
January 3, 2003, 11:30 PM
Tell me if I'm wrong...but that thing can legally have a flash suppressor...

Kaylee
January 3, 2003, 11:45 PM
WOW.... now that is a cool idea. No pistol grip, since it's the ACTION that splits, it doesn't legally have a "folding stock".... jeez, they seemed to think of everything. A totally innocuous EBR.

And yes... it can legally have a flash suppressor. What delightful evil little geniueses they are. :D If they engineered the shooting part half as well as they engineered the "stick it to the man" bits, it should work pretty well.

I'll admit though, it's plumb ugly.

-K

Felonious Monk
January 3, 2003, 11:59 PM
Lotsa posts early in this thread commenting what a smart company Kel-Tec is...

I believe George Kelgren is the "mad genius" that's the catalyst for all of this innovation. Not only great design, but cojones grandes, too. :what: :cool:

4v50 Gary
January 4, 2003, 12:05 AM
Trunk gun! Hopefully it does take the AR-15/M-16 magazine.

I doubt if gas system probably is gas impingment but more akin to the AK type action. If it's more accurate than the Mini-14, it'll be better for us Californians.

Sactown
January 4, 2003, 12:30 AM
It's ain't purty to these eyes, but if it's semi-auto and more accurate than a mini-14, sign me up. Not many choices here in Kali for semi-auto .223.

Tamara
January 4, 2003, 12:46 AM
If that thing takes AR mags, I am so going to buy one!

JohnKSa
January 4, 2003, 12:49 AM
Oh please don't let it be a dog.
Oh please don't let it be a dog.

Oh PLEEEEEESE, PLEEEEEEESE don't let it be a dog.

PS. And PLEEEEEESE let it take AR mags...

I'll be good all year, I promise.

Steelharp
January 4, 2003, 01:20 AM
Me want... Me want... Me want... Me want... Me want... Me want... Me want... Me want... Me want... Me want... Me want... Me want... Me want... Me want... Me want... Me want... Me want... Me want... Me want... Me want... Me want... Me want... Me want... Me want... Me want...

Did I say I wanted one?

Mikey D...

Arkady
January 4, 2003, 02:27 AM
No pistol grip means it can have a flash suppressor, right? Hehehe.

If that thing takes AR mags, and can hold a 3-4 inch group at 100 yards, it is soooo going in the trunk.

Maddock
January 4, 2003, 02:33 AM
It's BEEAUUUTTIIFFFUUULLL!
I want.
I hope the muzzle diameter is enough to thread on a flash suppressor and it has a 5.56 chamber instead of .223. This looks like it has great potential as a urban or patrol carbine.

Jspy
January 4, 2003, 03:08 AM
Looks like a good design as long as all of the bugs are worked out of it. The AR mags would seem like a no brainer, but......don't figure to be that lucky. :)

firestar
January 4, 2003, 03:56 AM
It doesn't look so bad. It kinds of reminds me of a Mini-14 in a way (kind of).

Like the caliber anyway.

MLC
January 4, 2003, 05:07 AM
Anyone else notice the similarities?
http://billstclair.com/blog/keltec-su16.jpg

http://www.darkwing.net/aaron/guns/bar/steyr_scout.jpg
Other than one is scoped, one is bolt etc...

Rocko
January 4, 2003, 08:58 AM
Hrm, I don't think I like it. The folded package doesn't appear very compact to me - definitely doesn't use space as efficiently as the sub-2000. I guess the .223 has too much pressure to have the hinge in the breech area like the sub-2000. I'd rather them have done some sort of skeletonized top folder, but it looks like they have it fold to the bottom so you can keep your optics attached. Still, for what it is, I think I'd skip the optics anyways. The lack of PG is also disappointing - it looks like there is plenty of room there for one. Hopefully they will offer it as an option.

Also note that you can't have a mag in the gun when folded. Honeslty, I don't think this would be that much quicker to deploy than an AR-15 taken down into halves. I also agree that the bipod is pretty cheesy - looks like it is way too high for flat shooting while prone. Made for those guys who only shoot from a bench, I guess...

Seems like an odd time for them to develop such a product as well. Much of the interest in these folding rifles comes from the AWB and bad juju of folding stocks. I think there's a good chance the AWB will not be renewed, and thus such a folding rifle will basically be obsolete - a folding stock being much more useful, IMHO.

I also find it strange that they went with an 18" barrel, as opposed to 16" to save a couple of more inches. I wonder if the feds were giving them crap about the OAL when folded (notice it is the minimum OAL, 26") even though it can't shoot like that. Certainly the OAL of the sub-2000 when folded is under 26", though.

All in all, unless they can make these cheap (under $400), I don't see them selling to many.

Rocko

pinetree64
January 4, 2003, 09:14 AM
It's so ugly, I like it! I wonder about the durability of the front sight. I'd buy one if it took AR mags, was less then a Ruger and more accurate.

tjg

vertigo7
January 4, 2003, 09:48 AM
It's so fugly it's beautiful. If it does indeed take AR mags and works well in field trials by those who can get their greedy paws on one, I'm definitely buying one for myself.

vertigo7

Hk Paul
January 4, 2003, 01:53 PM
This seems to be like a good idea, but im not too sure about the quality. Prove me worng please, it is a genious idea!

Flying V
January 4, 2003, 02:02 PM
I need one of these to go with my boxful of AR mags.

Oleg Volk
January 4, 2003, 03:03 PM
I don't see a heat shield.
I do see decent sights.
Lack of pistol grip doesn't bother me -- conventional action point shoots better. Price will be the big point...if under $400, it will be pretty popular. Kel-Tec QC has been excellent lately, if my latest P32 is any indication.

Dr.Rob
January 4, 2003, 03:15 PM
Reminds me of a Saiga sporterized AK with a door hinge in the middle of it.

Still, it's a curious looking critter. I'd like a heavier barrel, maybe a flash-doohicky.

Why the heck would you use the number 16 in the name unless it took m-16 mags? Mightly sly folks over there at Kel-Tec.

I'd reserve the right to pass judgement until I shot one.

762x51
January 4, 2003, 03:27 PM
I agree with Dr. Rob. Reminds me of a Saiga. It sure aint pretty, but I haven't decided whether I love it or hate it.

MonacanMan
January 4, 2003, 03:38 PM
My take on Keltec products is they are a great buy for the money but if you buy anything that is in the first 5000 made you are part of the product testing group. They have excellent customer service and will fix any problems with their guns. I have the Sub2K and I like the way it looks and shoots. I'll be keeping my eye on their new guns.

Zander
January 4, 2003, 04:23 PM
Also note that you can't have a mag in the gun when folded. Sure you can...there's a mag in the buttstock. :cool:

That'd be a proprietary mag; just a WAG that it's a ten-rounder.

Probably some sort of "safety" feature would prevent folding the rifle with one in the mag well, but if not, it wouldn't be necessary to snap the buttstock on the barrel. The extra space taken would be tiny.

Honeslty, I don't think this would be that much quicker to deploy than an AR-15 taken down into halves. In a pressure situation? Let's see:

SU-16 ... unfold, *snap*, insert mag [stored loaded in buttstock], hit charging handle, BANG!.

AR-15 ... grab upper, grab lower, fiddle with getting the front pin lined-up, snap the front pin in, snap the rear pin in, insert mag [where is that mag?...mag pouch?], pull charging handle, BANG!

George Kelgren is a design genius and a perfectionist...if the SU-16 is in production, it's been tested and it works.

Can't wait to handle one...

Rocko
January 4, 2003, 04:52 PM
Probably some sort of "safety" feature would prevent folding the rifle with one in the mag well, but if not, it wouldn't be necessary to snap the buttstock on the barrel. The extra space taken would be tiny.

The trigger guard actually goes into the mag well when folded, so a mag can't be there. So, even though it folds into a "smallish" package, readying the rifle would consist of unfolding, locking, inserting mag, and chambering a round. Seems like enough stuff to do that you would never use it for a any sort of situation that would call for a weapon to be instantly ready. At which point, the few extra seconds to assemble an AR-15 are moot.

Not to mention, because of the lack of a pistol grip, there's no reason why some sort of folding stock (where the rifle could remain loaded, and even fire from the closed position) couldn't have been legally used instead - except perhaps in a handful of states, of course.

I guess I just don't get it... the folded package doesn't really seem that small - 26" is the length, and it seems like the "width" would be nearly 8-10". Not something you could really shove into a backpack easily (unlike the sub-2000) and it seems like a fixed stock gun that is instantly available would be a better choice for a "trunk" gun, given that you can't even have a mag in the magwell when folded here.

Rocko

LevelHead
January 4, 2003, 05:04 PM
Well if it takes AR mags, I WILL have one.

saki302
January 4, 2003, 05:33 PM
If it takes AR mags, count me in too!

I wonder if a short 5-round mag would fit into the rifle when folded? In a defense situation,t hat should be enough to get you by until you pop the 30 rounder out of the buttstock!

-Dave

Gewehr98
January 4, 2003, 06:17 PM
But it sure as heck looks like this Kel-Tec rifle takes them! Good for them!:D

Kel-Tec is just up the road from me in Cocoa, FL. Wonder if I could get a sneak-peek? Invite them to my range to test it out, sort of a product-development maneuver?

Triad
January 4, 2003, 08:00 PM
Doesn't the AW ban include threaded barrels as an evil feature? Detach. mag+threaded barrel+flash hider =AW, no?

CleverNickname
January 4, 2003, 09:03 PM
Doesn't the AW ban include threaded barrels as an evil feature? Detach. mag+threaded barrel+flash hider =AW, no

Who says you have to have a threaded barrel for a flash hider? Just permanently attach it.

Andrew Wyatt
January 4, 2003, 11:34 PM
DON'T MESS WITH IT. IT'S LEGAL IN CALIFORNIA AS IT IS. :uhoh:

Dave R
January 5, 2003, 12:01 AM
Burning question: does it use stupid direct gas impingement, or does it use an AK-style op-rod?? Gotta know...

I like the 18" barrel. I have always felt my 16" AK (yes, its .223) barrel was a tad too short. Big fireballs think so, too.

Kobun
January 5, 2003, 12:21 AM
I would hate to touch the barrel with the bipod folded out.
Ouch! :uhoh:

Hope it is possible to move the front sight backward, so that one can cut the barrel down.

Oh, and from now on, lets all say SUR.
Never again shall the frase "Assult rifle" be mentioned!
Lets beat the antis at their own game.
Sport Utility Rifle = Any semi auto rifle owned by sivilians! :)

K. :)

Zander
January 5, 2003, 12:54 AM
The trigger guard actually goes into the mag well when folded, so a mag can't be there. Guess you missed my point...you needn't fold it that far. If you didn't, the overall dimensions of the package would be changed so little that it wouldn't make any real difference. 'Course, we won't know until we actually get a sample to handle, fire and pack.

So, even though it folds into a "smallish" package, readying the rifle would consist of unfolding, locking, inserting mag, and chambering a round. See above...

I don't disagree with the utility of an AR-15 as a trunk-rifle, but I don't anticipate using the SU-16 as a backpack-rifle. If it turns out that it is usable for such...great!

Can we agree that time of deployment in an emergency is likely to be less for the SU-16...given what little we know at this stage?

Lord Grey Boots
January 5, 2003, 01:31 AM
It looks like a useful design. Question is, how will the accuracy be after the barrel heats up?

I doubt it will hit AR-15 type accuracy. However, as a trunk/toolbox gun it looks like a good fit.

enfwago
January 5, 2003, 01:36 AM
Can't wait to see what the price will be. If the price is right I might just have to get one.

roscoe
January 5, 2003, 01:55 AM
I had that same thought about the scout rifle, especially considering how light it is. It will probably drive Jeff Cooper crazy.

makarov
January 5, 2003, 02:00 AM
With the 7.62 SAIGA's going for well under $200 - the folding option is not a big deal for me. Still an interesting gun. I'm getting one of the SAIGA's for sure, debating on 16 or 20 inch barrel. Probably go for the long barrel. The Kel-Tec rifle looks promising though.

Kor
January 5, 2003, 02:05 AM
The SU-16 looks pretty good so far - I'd almost bet money that it uses an AR18-type action with a gas piston. The bolt and bolt handle look just like my AR180B - maybe Kel-Tec is licensing the design or sub-contracting actions/bolts/receivers from Armalite?

What I don't like so far is the front sight, which looks the same as the Sub2000, i.e. PLASTIC front post with PLASTIC adjustment screws. The Sub2000 front sight is fine for plinking with a pistol cartridge at <100yds, but .223 is a 300yd cartridge and I'd like sights that would let me get the most out of the cartridge at longer ranges. You can't dope windage or dial in elevation with the Sub2000 sights, you can only use by-guess-and-by-God Kentucky windage and Tennesee elevation, and that won't cut it 3 football fields away. I'd also MUCH rather have steel-on-steel adjustments on a rifle's sights.

When(not if) I obtain one of these, I'm going to look into some AR-style iron sights for it - either the Xpress Sights adjustable Weaver-mount ghost-ring or the GG&G flip-up A2-style rear sights, with the GG&G flip-up front or Armalite's clamp-on front sight base.

JShirley
January 5, 2003, 04:09 AM
I was in the PX with one of my fellow grunts when I saw the ad.

Hey, check this out.

Whoah! We need that!

Need?

Yeah! The M4 sucks!

So, I went and joined KTOG again...

Personally, I like 18". It would seem KT has made a reasonable compromise between the two most popular AR barrel lengths. I just hope the damn thing doesn't have that abominable star chamber like the AR15/M16 family.

If it's under $500, and has no star chamber, I'll take the first one, George!

enichols
January 5, 2003, 10:45 AM
I like it! I like it a lot! Since it's PRK legal I'll pick one up if funds permit. What I'd do is to get rid of the handguard/bipod and to install AK handguards, sling swivels and a conventional bipod.

Midnight
January 5, 2003, 12:24 PM
It looks like FAL handguards might fit on there as well. It would be nice if there was a way to preserve the bipod and keep handguards on it at all times.

Chris Rhines
January 5, 2003, 02:06 PM
Dear God, that thing is hideous. I want one. Check that, I want a couple.

Kel-Tec, now hear this. If this rifle turns out to suck, I will declare a one-man holy war against everything that is Kel-Tec. Do not play with me by dangling what looks like a really cool rifle in front of my nose. Do not toy with my emotions!

:D

- Chris

gun-fucious
January 5, 2003, 02:32 PM
it needs a brown leather sling
:)

Kaylee
January 5, 2003, 02:47 PM
I just hope the damn thing doesn't have that abominable star chamber like the AR15/M16 family.

Well, if you squint really close, that image says "The SU-16 uses the proven breech locking and loading system" which I'd take to mean that it does indeed use the AR type chamber lugs. That said... it's also a pretty good indicator that it will in fact use M16 magazines. Mag release button placement seems to bear that out as well.

-K

DrDremel
January 5, 2003, 03:34 PM
Sounds interesting. I hope the cheesy front sight can be removed and a stronger aluminum one can be added. If accuracy is good, I would buy one. I hate AR's and might sell mine. If one were made in .308 with a forward mount for a scope I would really like it. It would be the ultimate scout rifle.

Onslaught
January 6, 2003, 10:15 AM
Eh, so I'm odd-man out...

It has no pistol grip, so I don't want one. (Yeah, I know... more for you guys ;) ) I have been a fan of pistol gripped rifles for 20 years now, WAAAY before it was "tacti-cool" to have them. I just like the way they shoulder and point. A flash supressor does NOTHING for the feel of a weapon, so I'd rather have a PG than a FS.

But I do understand that it's KA legal now, and I'm happy for you guys that it is, so let it be PG-less, and KA legal, and you guys in the PRK can have a covert HD-SHTF rifle :). I just hope you've got a good supply of grandfathered AR mags...

Joe Demko
January 6, 2003, 10:34 AM
It looks less like a Scout rifle to me than it does the late, unlamented Grendel SRT which somehow managed to suck despite being built around a Sako action. Picture here. (http://stormy-night.org/weapons/weapons75.gif)

4v50 Gary
January 6, 2003, 08:40 PM
When is somebody going to buy one or do I have to field test it myself? :D

gun-fucious
January 6, 2003, 09:14 PM
seems to me someone associated with SWAT magazine might get an early look at the rifle.

i hear the photographic light is real good in Tennessee this time of year...

;)


Kel Tek has paid for an add in a magazine so they must be planning on shipping it this spring

MonacanMan
January 6, 2003, 10:08 PM
I was on the KTOG forum on Yahoo and found this post. I don't know if its true but here what was posted.....

QUOTE

"I called Cliff & bugged him 1st thing this morning; he was surprised to
hear that anyone knew about the SU-16 before the SHOT show!

He was able to confirm that it takes AR-15/M-16 mags, will have a MSRP
of ~$640, and is not yet available.

He also answered my question I posted here before: A Sub-40 in Glock
config can be changed over to S&W config as a quick "do it yourself"
project, but the bolt won't hold back on an empty mag in the S&W
config. Otherwise, I could send the whole thing in and have it
converted to S&W.

Now I just have to decide between buying a Sub-40, or trying to wait for
the SU-16..."

Bill St. Clair
January 7, 2003, 01:37 PM
I talked with a woman in sales at Kel-Tec. She told me the following.

The SU-16 will be introduced at the Orlando Shot Show (http://www.shotshow.org/) in February. The Guns & Ammo ad was premature. They expect it to be available to consumers in April.

It uses standard M-16/AR-15 mags and will ship with one ten-round mag.

Suggested retail price is $640. She didn't know or wouldn't tell what the dealer cost would be.

I asked whether the front sight was the same as on the Sub-2000, and she didn't know.

Steelharp
January 7, 2003, 01:45 PM
gun-fucious, the light is good here, indeed... and that fella with SWAT is my neighbor, his daughter and mine are best friends... I'll let ya know if he gets one...

Mikey D...

Matt G
January 7, 2003, 05:16 PM
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2737

I got a response to my email, about both Kel-Tec's new products, with specs. (See post in General, above)

Shalako
January 7, 2003, 06:50 PM
Huh, I'm not so sure us Kali folks can be trusted with something like that.

In that case, I'll take 5 of them! :D

-Shalako

MonacanMan
January 7, 2003, 11:06 PM
Folks,

Got this from KelTec about my enquiry concerning their new SU16 223 rifle:

>The new .223 SU-16 Sport Utility Rifle comes with unique
>features such as:
> -Integrated Picatinny rail.
> -Forend folds down to form a bipod.
> -The stock can store spare magazines.
> -The mechanism and stock can be rotated for added.
> safety or carry under extreme conditions.
> -Utilizes proven M-16 breech locking and feeding system.
> -Accepts AR-15 and M-16 mags.
>
>We have not yet decided to submit the SU-16 to California.
>Technically, this is not a folding rifle. When it is in the
>folded position, it is not folded but, disassembled. You must
>remove a pin to disassemble it (or, fold it) and it absolutely
>cannot be fired when disassembled. However, when it is
>disassembled (or, folded) it does measure less than 30".
>
>Because California has passed a new law allowing people to sue
>the manufacturer when a gun gets in the wrong hands and is used
>in a crime, it is very possible that we will not allow sales in
>California at all. It is still yet to be determined.
>
>Suggested retail is $640.00.
>We hope to begin shipping the new SU-16 in May of this year.
>Please contact your local dealers now for backorder information.
>
>Also new for this year is the P-3AT .380 cal pistol. It's just
>a tiny bit larger than our P-32. Expected ship date is also May
>at this time. Suggested retail is $305.00 for the "blued" model.
>
>Specifications for the new P-3AT and SU-16 are as follows:
>
> P-3AT / SU-16
>Weight unloaded: 7.3 oz / 5 lbs
>Length 5.16" 37"/26" open/closed
>Height 3.52"
>Width .75"
>Barrel Length 2.76" / 18"
>Capacity 6+1 rnds / 10+1 rnds

enfwago
January 8, 2003, 12:01 AM
MonacanMan, I just got the same response in my email and was going to post it....looks like you beat me to it.

SIGarmed
January 8, 2003, 12:34 AM
Because California has passed a new law allowing people to sue
>the manufacturer when a gun gets in the wrong hands and is used
>in a crime, it is very possible that we will not allow sales in
>California at all. It is still yet to be determined.

Here's what I don't get. The legislation that this is reffering to is the new stupid law that removed specific protections for gun manufacturers in California. From what I understand these protection laws don't exist in many other states. Are they also going to prohibit sales to states where there isn't any protection laws? Its not just California.

Sactown
January 8, 2003, 01:39 AM
NO SALES TO KALI!!! NOOOO!!! We got a lot of D.A.s in this state that no longer believe in personal responsibility and that believe inanimate objects some how have moral responsibility. I can only hope that some kinda national legislation is enacted so that we get the same choices as other states. I hope Kel-Tec sells it here.

saki302
January 8, 2003, 08:18 AM
Since it is a LONG GUN, you could actually have your local dealer order it through another out-of-state party. There IS no importation law or testing law for rifles (thank God).

I'd just like to see the P-11/P-32 available here in CA again.

No one's won a gun-lawsuit anyways (or at least won the appeal, and NO WAY will it hold upp in the supreme court, so why worry? The rifles will end up here anyways- KT fans will SEE to that :)

-Dave

Chris Rhines
January 8, 2003, 01:16 PM
If they did one of these in .308 or 7mm-08 and still managed to get it in under eight pounds, I think I would die from an excess of avarice.

- Chris

duck hunt
January 10, 2003, 05:42 PM
Okay. I can't stand it. Where can I find more information about this new folding .223 rifle that Kel-Tec is going to market?

4v50 Gary
January 10, 2003, 07:09 PM
Threads merged duckhunt, as a service of THR.

Combat-wombat
January 10, 2003, 07:17 PM
PUHLLLLLLLLLLLEEEEEEEEEAAAAASSSSSSEEE Approve it in the PRK, PLLLLLLLEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAASSSSSSSSEEEE!!!!!

Slick
January 10, 2003, 11:13 PM
Penman,

Resistance is futile....
I will be assimilated!!!!!!!!!!!

Anybody hears about price, please let us know.

Slick

MonacanMan
January 11, 2003, 05:57 PM
This was posted over at KTOG and I would take as hearsay at this time but I thought it might be of interest....

"I talked to my sales rep at RSR Wholesale, and dealer price on the SU-16 will be $398.00 + shipping - which should translate to a street price of $500.00, plus or minus. At that price, I WILL get one for me, and as many more as I can glom onto."

enfwago
January 12, 2003, 08:56 AM
Here is a copy of the email I got from Kel-Tec....

"Suggested retail is $640.00. We hope to begin shipping the new SU-16 in May of this year. Please contact your local dealers now for backorder information."

45R
January 12, 2003, 12:23 PM
Hope its PRK Legal.

chaim
January 13, 2003, 04:52 AM
I think I want one. MSRP well under $700 (so price probably $500-600), AK mags, interesting design and due out in April or May. Great that will give me some time to save up.:D

Kor
January 14, 2003, 01:05 AM
Since I was the fella who posted the dealer pricing info at KTOG that MonacanMan quoted, I will vouch for the price info as being true and correct at this time - unless my dealer rep mis-informed me, or Kel-Tec changes their pricing later...

Looks like MonacanMan beat me to the punch with my own "rumor control!" :o

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