(IN) Police want firearms with more power


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Drizzt
December 25, 2002, 01:24 PM
Police want firearms with more power

Incident involving suspect with assault rifle renews concerns about guns IPD uses.



By Tom Spalding

tom.spalding@indystar.com

December 24, 2002

Marion County prosecutors plan to file attempted-murder charges today against a suspect accused of firing dozens of shots at three Indianapolis police officers.

Meanwhile, the Saturday night incident, which left two young officers with minor injuries, is prompting another internal IPD review of officer firepower.

Officers carried .40-caliber handguns -- while accused gunman Anthony Keith Brown, 25, carried a much more lethal SKS assault rifle.

"We were severely out-firepowered, I guess," said East District Patrolman Andy Lamle, one of the three officers under fire that night. "His weapon was far superior to anything we had available to us."

None of the officers can say for certain that a high-powered weapon of their own would have made a difference during the incident on the Eastside.

But police are considering that option.

"The times it would be useful would be very slim," said Indianapolis Police Department spokesman Steve Staletovich. "But even if it's one time, it could make the difference between life and death. It's worth a look, and it's getting a look."

The leader of the police union said his organization has raised the issue before.

"We have tried asking the department on previous occasions to boost our firepower, and we are still exploring the possibility," said IPD Sgt. Vince Huber, president of Fraternal Order of Police Lodge No. 86. "It shows the need to do that for the safety of our officers and citizens. Something that's equal to the firepower we're seeing from criminals."

According to police, officers tried to stop the Buick that Brown was driving after they spotted it speeding from Circle City Pizza, 2904 E. 38th St., at 7:03 p.m. Saturday. Officers had been called to a disturbance at the shop, where Brown worked last year.

The chase headed south and east, and police think shots might have been fired at officers during the pursuit. Brown stopped at 32nd Street and Sherman Drive because the Buick's transmission gave out.

Second-year Officer Linda Jackson, 35, was about half a block from Brown and was getting out of her car and looking for cover when she was struck in the hip by the gunfire. Jackson was treated for the wound and released from Wishard Memorial Hospital late Saturday.

Lamle, 24, skinned his knees as he dived behind his car for protection.

Patrolman Frank Miller II, 25, was grazed by either shrapnel or a bullet that scraped his thigh.

All three officers have been on patrol for two years, work the East District and are friends as part of IPD's 95th recruit class.

Two of the officers -- Lamle and Miller -- had an emotional story to tell Monday afternoon about hunkering for cover as the suspect fired.

"His first initial burst was probably anywhere from 25 to 30 rounds," said Miller, who had taken cover inside a wheel well. "A million things go through your mind in a second. And you know, I thought of my wife, I thought of my new 3-month-old baby, and I told myself, 'I'm not gonna die behind this car.' "

After an exchange of gunfire, Miller said, he kept yelling, "Throw the gun out!" and "Give yourself up!" until Brown finally complied.

Police say Brown was firing a rifle that used 7.62 mm bullets, slightly smaller in diameter than the police pistol bullets but traveling much faster and farther. A rifle with similar power was used to kill Marion County Sheriff's Deputy Jason Baker in September 2001.

Brown is being held without bond in Marion County Jail on preliminary charges of attempted murder, carrying a firearm without a license and resisting law enforcement. A news conference to discuss the charges is planned for 10 a.m. today with incoming Marion County Prosecutor Carl Brizzi.

Miller credited the training officers receive in how to protect themselves from such a dangerous weapon for keeping them alive.

"It shows the quality of training we get at this police department," he said. "I mean, look at the statistics of officers that have encountered high-powered rifles. We're lucky to be alive."

http://www.indystar.com/print/articles/5/010771-4565-009.html

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Tamara
December 25, 2002, 01:28 PM
So, yeah, put a carbine or shotgun in the trunk of the squad cars.

Makes sense to me.


Wonder, though, what is the maximum range IPD officers ever have to shoot for quals...

Blackhawk
December 25, 2002, 01:37 PM
Is this a proposed script for Saturday Night Live or something? There are elements of it that are almost comical.

How many people really need training to take cover when under fire?

The police won't be any more comfortable lugging M2s around than the citizens will be with them firing them.

Don't all SWAT teams have UAVs to handle situations like this?

And on, and on, and on....

4v50 Gary
December 25, 2002, 01:38 PM
It's about time. Long guns are used in increasing numbers by criminals. The death of the two NH officers, the LAPD bank robbery shootout, the slaying of an officer in SF and now this. It's about time LE is given better weapons.

Rick R
December 25, 2002, 01:52 PM
I always get a chill when I see a news story like this. I've been a cop for twenty years and we're usually not "out gunned" just out tactic-ed. We do need a weapon that allows us to extend control beyond the realm of the handgun or through armor and some cover, but most of these stories make it sound liker we're shopping for ICBM's or artillery. What we need is a moderate powered carbine that everyone can hit well with and which is up to the abuse of riding around in a cruiser for years.

Our SRT members thought I'd flipped when I had them shooting MP-5's at 100 yards this summer. ;)

Rick

El Tejon
December 25, 2002, 02:20 PM
Tamara, to answer your question 50 yards when I was there. Not there since summer of `90 (Office of Planning and Research). Don't know what they do at Plainfield (where police academy is and where Mike Tyson was). But, remember, you will never use your pistol at any range greater than 2.73 yards, so there is no need to train for this and . . . . hey, wait a minute!

"Carrying a firearm without a license"? What's that? Must have had a pistol on him as well.

IPD is where I got the incident about the motorcycle cop, the M66 and the mustard.:D

2nd Amendment
December 25, 2002, 02:31 PM
I'm still trying to get past the idea of an SKS as High Powered Rifle and "outgunning" anyone with one. I'm sorry, they are neat little rifles but jeez. An officer competent with a .40 would be more than sufficient to make me run away, SKS or no SKS.

El Tejon
December 25, 2002, 02:35 PM
2nd, apparently you've never seen IPD fight!:D You must live somewhere where the cops are a lot tougher.

"High power rifle" when talking about a CKC or such always makes me snicker too. However, it's technically correct.

Redlg155
December 25, 2002, 02:38 PM
Second-year Officer Linda Jackson, 35, was about half a block from Brown and was getting out of her car and looking for cover when she was struck in the hip by the gunfire. and...
After an exchange of gunfire, Miller said, he kept yelling, "Throw the gun out!" and "Give yourself up!" until Brown finally complied.

Ok. The BG is half a block away. The Officers ditch and car and hit the deck. BG runs out of ammo and from a half a block away they order him to the ground and he complies instead of running away? Unless Officer Miller in a second car was much closer, within speaking distance. If so then Officer Miller was close enough to use a much more efficent weapon, a 12 GA shotgun.

Maybe I'm missing something here but the story sounds a bit nutty. Especially the estimated initial burst round count from an SKS. First initial burst? hmmm...didn't know they made full auto SKSs.

Anyway..I'm glad the Officers got out of the situation alive. Keeping a carbine in the vehicle would also probably be a good idea.

Good Shooting
RED

pax
December 25, 2002, 02:39 PM
Blackhawk, a surprising number of them. A lot of people simply freeze up when something unexpected happens.

The article itself is a little shocking, don't you all think? I mean, a shooting incident and they are calling for better weapons for the police -- instead of for more gun control.

How unusual.

pax

After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it. -- William Burroughs

dinosaur
December 25, 2002, 02:47 PM
El Tejon?? :confused: :confused: :confused: :D

2nd Amendment
December 25, 2002, 03:17 PM
It's Indiana. We haven't all gone insane here, yet. Well, so long as you don't include Columbus, Bloomington and Gary. And no, I've never seen the IPD fight. Here in Greene Co the cops will just ignore you...till they decide to kick your arse. :)

Blackhawk
December 25, 2002, 03:30 PM
The article itself is a little shocking, don't you all think? I mean, a shooting incident and they are calling for better weapons for the police -- instead of for more gun control. Yes, and that's a good point! I'm so intent on finding BIG improvements in the media, that I don't tend to notice small ones! :D

BTW, Ruger Mini14s would be good cruiser carbines, IMO.

====================
Edited to add:

(OT, but I just noticed that my status changed to "Senior Member" with this post! How about them apples? I'm THR's first Senior Member!)

Iggy
December 25, 2002, 03:32 PM
That Indiana bad guy wouldn't want to tie into a Highway Patrolman out here...

They are all issued a 12 guage and an M-14... maybe its those wide open spaces... :D

El Tejon
December 25, 2002, 03:35 PM
Iggy, nope, he wouldn't.:) Would love to see a pair of Wyoming state cops on, oh, say 24th and New Jersey at about 1:00 am on a Saturday night.

This illustrates that not only is there no reason to train in long range pistol shooting, there's no reason to train in switch-to-slug drills with shotguns.:rolleyes:

cordex
December 25, 2002, 11:23 PM
The local TV interview with the perp was very ... interesting. He is the archtypical "gangbanger".
Apparently, he claims that his son (one of them, anyway) is his "twin", and will avenge his incarceration. He also said that while he doesn't remember the whole event, if they claim that he shot at them, he probably did.

Reports claimed that he had 130+ rounds of ammo left in his car.

Zorro
December 25, 2002, 11:36 PM
OK NO PROBLEM!

Give every patrol car a SKS for about $150, or a Marlin 30-30 for about $250.

dinosaur
December 26, 2002, 06:15 AM
Originally posted by Iggy

They are all issued a 12 guage and an M-14... maybe its those wide open spaces... :D [/B]

Yeah, I heard that about 25 years ago when I was in Nebraska. It was M16s back then IIRC. I`d rather have the 14.:cool:

tlhelmer
December 26, 2002, 09:18 AM
I work for the Indiana State Police and we tried to get the admin to allow us to carry personally owned rifles after a qual. course. They just ignored our request and didnt even say no.

We have had a number of incidents where our officers were either pinned down or being fired upon with high powered rifles and all we had was our sidearm and a shotgun.

Maybe the next Superintendent will change the policy, but admin. are always more worried about liability from others that the danger to their officers.

Iggy
December 26, 2002, 09:58 AM
30 years ago the WHP issued a model 10 S&W but we could carry anything we qualified with.. I carried a 45.

I also had a AR-180 under the headrests and a sawed-off, nickle plated, gold hammered, double barreled 12 guage clipped to the door..

THat sawed off got the BG's attention in a real hurry.. Kinda like lookin' down the mouth of the Holland Tunnels..When those hammers clicked, their eyeballs clicked, and you had their undivided from them on...

They finally issued 870's about the time I quit. Then recently they issued the M-14's to everyone..

Times have changed.... *G*

Tamara
December 26, 2002, 10:21 AM
Well, if it ain't one thing, it's another...

Are there only two extremes allowed? It seems that either you have some young cop, fresh out of the academy, in black BDUs with a drop-leg thigh holster for his USP, with a dozen mags on his person and a belt-fed SAW in the trunk under the case of flash-bangs, driving around issuing parking tickets (those double parked soccer moms could flip out and turn the whole thing into a 27 Delta Mike 19 incident or somesuch, and then how would our hero finish his Krispy Kreme?). At the other extreme you wind up with the incident above: kids that are apparently handed a pistol, given a minimum of training with it, told that they can't carry a rifle in the trunk, and told to "Go catch bad guys."

Isn't there a happy medium?

BigG
December 26, 2002, 10:40 AM
I got it! We'll come up with a 39 caliber autoloader... No, a 41 caliber autoloader with high caps. That will give us the magic bullet!

Seriously, when my dad was a patrolman they had Win 94 30/30s as patrol rifles. Would give a good account against an SKS.

riverdog
December 26, 2002, 11:12 AM
If they'd put 870's back in the trunk and then encourage their officers to shoot more often to gain proficiency it would help. Have a police skeet or trap competition, sporting clays. Put a decent Trap barel on an 870 and it's a good gun to play with; anything to get them to use the weapon and gain familiarity. Just my $.02, could be OTL.

El Tejon
December 26, 2002, 11:47 AM
What's the fixation with the long weapon "in the trunk"? Just asking, never understood why there and not up front where needed. Maybe balance between access and security?

Tamara, happy medium? Yep.

It has long been preached at Old TFL even by loony office types! Training. Of course, some are too cool to train and software budget always feels the budget axe first.

Whatever IPD gets, either departmentally or PODA weapons, let's hope they get hours with their gear.

tlhelmer, back in my LEO daze, I was shocked to discover ISP did not have at least .223s. I don't know if a shotgun out in the middle of say Starke County (up north where Hayzeus left his zapatos and the FOF is clear as far as you can see) is the ideal instrument.:D

Rick R
December 26, 2002, 12:27 PM
El Tejon,

Long guns up front take a lot of abuse and between the spilt coffee and donut crumbs it's hard to keep them operational. And I'm only half joking. In the trunk puts the gun where it's out of sight from would-be thieves and soccer moms.

We just bought racks that mount the gun horizontally above and behind the driver's head on the screen. Now if our new 870's would only come in...

Riverdog,

IMHO Skeet is the way to go, you can use the 18" Improved Cylinder barrel quite well and when you think you're doin' good try shooting doubles with a round in the chamber and combat reloading the second round.:D

Rick

seeker_two
December 26, 2002, 12:46 PM
Never take a knife to a gunfight, and never take a pistol to a rifle fight. A good .30-30 lever-action or pump-action (Remington 7600) would be a welcome addition to any patrolman's arsenal.

But a pistol can be used at long range too. Ask Elmer Keith...

El Tejon
December 26, 2002, 12:52 PM
Rick, if keeping them out of the LOS of Barry BG and Sally Socermommie is the objective, then why not carry them as does Trooper Helmer in his state po-po commission, up top, zipped up out of sight? If you need it, whether a shotgun or kotex for a new hole, shouldn't it be where you are? Don't know how IPD's insurance is written, could be a factor.

Just asking. I've always found it strange that any copper would carry a weapon "in the trunk." What if BG is shooting at you with his CKC and won't let you get to the trunk? Yeah, it'll never happen.:)

If IPD does get new gear, I hope someone considers that.

BigG
December 26, 2002, 12:56 PM
...fixation with the long weapon "in the trunk"?

More guns stolen from cop cars than you would think. Out of sight, out of mind. :o

tlhelmer
December 26, 2002, 01:42 PM
How did you know where I keep my shotgun? You almost described it to the letter. I keep mine zipped up and protected, but next to my hip between the seat and the door.


I will probably never need a rifle, but I would like to have it if I needed it. I have had several incidents that could have become worse and where a long arms would have put me in a better situation.We had two police action shootings involving open ground fire from a suspect. One situation we were waiting for the ERT team to arrive and the situation developed before they could arrive. The second situation developed with the ERT team present, but they were the only officers with rifles.

We lucked out in both cases. Slugs and buckshot are not enough at 100 yards on. Believe it or not that was the distance at which the suspect engaged us with his rifle.

El Tejon
December 26, 2002, 02:29 PM
tlhelmer, oh, I believe it. Don't forget someone had to read all those police reports that you guys generate.

How did I know? Well, about `96, a bunch of us DPAs volunteered to drink and take FSTs from rookie troopers at the West Lafayette post. An alleged training (that word again) experience

I showed up early to yak. Rich Kelley and Brent Bible gave me a tour of the joint. They let me sit in Rich's commission and showed me the radio. I just happen to notice the shotgun and asked where the carbine was. They both looked at me like I was drinking already.

I don't see why the Super won't let you have carbines, at least PODA if budget problems. If liability concerns, wouln't a shotgun be of greater concern as there are 9 lawsuits there as compared to a single .223 bullet? As long as you guys get your hours, you should have them. I couldn't imagine patrolling some parts of the state where you can get mighty lonely without it.

Yellow footprints aside, I can't see why Mel won't address your concerns. You sure it comes from his office? Seems like a reasonable fellow.

riverdog
December 26, 2002, 03:41 PM
Rick,
That's exactly what I was thinking. It wouldn't take formal competition either, just a couple guys with a portable thrower. Doubles would be a challenge with a short barrel and cylinder bore. I haven't tried it with my slug barrel, but it might be fun to try.

Tamara
December 26, 2002, 03:49 PM
What's the fixation with the long weapon "in the trunk"?

For those of us who are non "high-speed/low-drag" LEO types, KSF... er, El Tejon, this is a metaphor for "available". ;)

I don't care if it's a Mini-14 in a roof rack or a pistol caliber carbine stuffed in the top of his Hi-Tec boot; it would be nice if he had a weapon with a shoulder stock, a long sight radius, and the ability to connect solidly at 100 yards available to him.

This can be done without putting him in black fatigues with a K-pot and pintle-mounting an M2HB on his Crown Vic, thereby making us taxpayers feel as though we were living in El Banana Republico...

El Tejon
December 26, 2002, 04:13 PM
Tamara, O.K., but "in the trunk" assumes Barry BG will let you get to the trunk with the squad key before lighting you up with his CKC or whatever. From what I gather the IPD puppies could not call "King's X" and go access their trunks. I would want it up front with me, but maybe I'm insecure.:confused:

Maybe, as usual, I'm making too big a deal of it, but just wanted to know why people think the trunk is a good place for a weapon. Geez, can't a guy free associate on the Errornet?

Tamara, besides the only "high-speed/low-drag" work I did in LE or the militree was speed dialing the telephone!:D

BigG
December 26, 2002, 04:49 PM
More long guns are "lost" during donut shoppe stops, I'll wager than "needed" during BG confrontations. Just my thoughts, worth whut ya paid!

tlhelmer
December 26, 2002, 05:32 PM
I went through recruit school with Brent Bible. Now i recognize the old Moniker.

El Tejon
December 26, 2002, 06:09 PM
tlhelmer, when you see 1st Sgt. Bible next, tell him you met Kirk on the Errornet and say "hi." He'll just shake his head, sigh, and then start muttering about having to wait outside in the hallway during a day off (ask him about the peepee OWI/RLE we had)when Freeman or Gutwein HAD to have a trial or having a report sent back with questions scrawled over it. Not dealing with me makes all his paperwork headaches worthwhile:D

Rick R
December 26, 2002, 06:47 PM
El Tejon,

It helps that new cruisers have trunk releases up front, so you hit the button and dash round back. The problem I've seen with keeping a gun in a zipped case in a vehicle is condensation will quickly turn your gun that ghastly orange color.

Our new racks will put the guns up outta sight and secure them in an electrical lock with a key bypass in a location readily available to the officer. That should make things better all around.

I'd rather see some form of rifle in the car but the powers that be don't see the necessity and their eyes kind of glaze over when I bring the concept up.

Tamara,

A lot of people are put off by the BDU look, maybe we need a thread on what is dignified, approachable and sensible for LEO wear.

Rick

rock jock
December 26, 2002, 07:22 PM
Liability. This is the same reason the LAPD has just put a moratorium on high-speed chases. Of course the flip side is training, which translates into money.

El Tejon
December 26, 2002, 07:30 PM
These new super cruisers, do they block incoming short Russian rounds or simply provide covering fire from the BG shooting at you with his CKC?:D

May be just me, but if I go with the sharks I may not want to expose myself to gunfire, but I'm a big sissy.:rolleyes:

Rick R
December 26, 2002, 07:42 PM
I doubt modern cars provide much cover from any rifle round. Matter of fact one of the killin's I helped investigate where the shooter had an SKS the car looked like Swiss Cheese. Chinese ammo, Russian rifle and Japanese car had to come all the way to WV to meet.

Rick

rock jock
December 26, 2002, 07:45 PM
Chinese ammo, Russian rifle and Japanese car had to come all the way to WV to meet.
Ah, multiculturalism. Shouldn't that have made the libs happy?

Snowman92D
December 26, 2002, 09:05 PM
I'd never go so far as to say that IPD has an internal policy that "discourages" patrol officers from having a 12-gauge, but their officers sure have to jump through a bunch of hoops to get a shotgun issued to them. Most just opt to do without and not mess with the hassle. IPD has around 1,200 sworn personnel and I tell you what...if that department owns more than 250 shotguns, I'd sure be surprized.

Jeff OTMG
December 26, 2002, 09:21 PM
I wouldn't want just a handgun in a fight against a rifle. Distance works to the opponents advantage. The FBI ran into this at the Miami shootout.

El Tejon
December 26, 2002, 09:23 PM
Snow, that's very sad to hear.:(

twoblink
December 26, 2002, 09:56 PM
Short of shooting .454 Casull's, I don't see a handgun matching any rifles anytime soon. So how is it that it takes so long to consider a rifle in the trunk?

Gaucho Gringo
December 6, 2007, 02:27 AM
The so called high power assault rifles in this article and others are nothing more than military weapons in calibers that have been around for the last 100 years. It seems like people now a days will call any military rifle produced in the last 100 years an assault rifle. Frank Hammer when chasing Bonnie & Clyde over 70 years ago had his specially modified .35 caliber Remington rifle. The other lawmen were equally armed with lever action 30\30's, BAR 30.06's and an assortment of other hunting caliber rifles. I have never seen why police officers were not allowed to have with them on duty a hunting caliber rifle in the trunk for when then occasion warrants. A shotgun is mainly a crowd control weapon at best, not an accurate medium or long range weapon. Even in the frontier days lawmen carried a long gun.

The Unknown User
December 6, 2007, 02:31 AM
I don't think LEOs should have better firepower. They need to set a good, non-violent example for us all.

They shouldn't even be carrying handguns. Why, they could hurt someone!

Seriously, good for them. I hope they get the equipment they need to do their jobs more efficiently and effectively.

Justin
December 6, 2007, 02:31 AM
*points to sign*


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