Guns and Gays: Similar core issue on different sides of the aisle?


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Slappy McGee
April 15, 2008, 04:02 PM
I was thinking while sitting in traffic that gun rights and gay rights have similar foundational issues. Before your head explodes, hear me out (no, I am not gay).

Both pro sides have fair factual arguments, and also to a large extent are a lifestyle choice. Owning a gun does not turn someone into the next crazed killer mall commando just as being gay does not turn you into a bad parody of 1980's Elton John bent on "converting" the nations youth.

Gun ownership is not something that is taken lightly by most. If I am going to own a firearm for self-defence I am making certain assumptions and take on certain responsibilities while being shunned by many elements of society. Similarly, if you've every known a gay person who has come out of the closet, they generally take a similar amount of criticism from large elements of society and rarely do it without very thoughtful reflection.

At the end of the day, both pro sides often lament "Hey, why do you care so much if I own guys/am gay? Why can't you just leave me alone and let me exercise my perceived right. I'm not the 'bad guy' here and am a consenting adult of majority age who likely will never cause you personal harm (although perhaps some personal inconvenience)."

Both pro sides also feel they are often "sold out" by the political party that supposedly has their interests at heart.

Either anti side, when it gets to its core, seems to revolve around evil and protecting children. Guns are evil. They kill children. Gay are evil. How am I going to explain two men/women kissing to my child? The Bible says gays are the scourge of the Earth. The NY Times says guns are the scourge of the Earth.

Both of these anti arguments have some basis in fact. While it's not as frequent as the media might state, yes, there have been accidental and malicious firearms deaths. If you take out all the "scourge from god" nonsense surrounding AIDS, yes it was more frequent in the gay population initially, and yes, your children might have some uncomfortable questions if they see a gay couple showing their affection in public. The pro side to either would say "Hey, freedom isn't free and preserving our rights will occasionally cost a life or two."

What's interesting is that despite the fairly obvious similarities, pro-gun and anti-gay are traditionally "conservative" values, while anti-gun and pro-gay are traditionally "liberal" values, and both are usually on the extreme ends of the spectrum. Most of the most rabidly anti-gun states are also the most pro-gay states and vice versa.

What if the pro-gun community reached out to the pro-gay community and said "Hey, let's agree to disagree on our respective topics, but work to preserve each other's rights, since this is a civil liberties issue that transcends what you or I think is 'evil?'" Talk about a "rainbow coalition!"

Thoughts?

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buzz_knox
April 15, 2008, 04:05 PM
There's at least one organization, the Pink Pistols, that recognized this a while back. It's a gun rights gay organization.

Aaron Baker
April 15, 2008, 04:07 PM
Good thoughts. You're basically espousing a libertarian point of view. So far as there are "liberals" that are into guns, lots of them actually view themselves as libertarians.

Check out this group for a great example of crossover:

http://www.pinkpistols.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pink_Pistols

Aaron

Snake Eyes
April 15, 2008, 04:16 PM
...also to a large extent are a lifestyle choice.

A common error made by heterosexuals. Tell me: when did you make the 'lifestyle choice' of your sexuality?? I bet you can't find one gay person that will tell you they made a 'lifestyle choice' to be degraded, humiliated, persecuted and denied basic rights.

Hey, why do you care so much if I own guys/am gay?

Actually, as long as the 'guys' you 'own' are into that lifestyle, I don't care at all!

Slappy McGee
April 15, 2008, 04:34 PM
A common error made by heterosexuals. Tell me: when did you make the 'lifestyle choice' of your sexuality?? I bet you can't find one gay person that will tell you they made a 'lifestyle choice' to be degraded, humiliated, persecuted and denied basic rights.

Good catch, and I expressed that point incorrectly (apologies). I did not mean to say that being gay was a 'lifestyle choice,' rather that choosing to "come out" and share your orientation with others is a difficult choice often subject to scorn, and the 'lifestyle choice' was choosing to be subject to that scorn. While I think it's a harder choice than owning a gun, gun owners are also degraded and humiliated, hence another similarity.

On the topic of the Pink Pistols, I will check out their site. What I think would make headlines is if gun rights folks came out for gay rights. I think it would generate a lot of publicity, goodwill, and change the perception of gun owners in quite a few ardently anti-gun circles. It would also shatter the conventional definitions of liberal and conservative issues and make the dialogue on both issues more about basic freedoms rather than EBRs and Gay Pride parades.

obmax1212
April 15, 2008, 06:36 PM
I get what you meant by lifestyle choice. I am gay and I own guns. I think the reason gays tend to cling to the anti-gun crowd is because the anti-gun crowd tends to be liberals, who by definition worship government. Worshiping government requires surrendering arms. As for pro-gun people being anti-gay, that might be because the more traditionally conservative people tend to be religious in this country. I agree with you, anti-gun gays shouldn't be anti-gun, and anti-gay pro-gunners shouldn't ignore gays because they are gay.

The way I see it, ALL minorities have even more reason to want to be pro-gun. Gays, blacks, Jews, etc. All of them are at particular risk of being screwed, and owning a gun (as we all know) is the best defense for them when the SHTF. My personal opinion growing up in Albany, NY is that most gays are anti-gun not because they are actually anti-gun, but because they associate pro-gun with anti-gay politics. By the way, I am and know several Republican/libertarian pro-gun gay...and they aren't butch lesbians either :P.

Slappy McGee
April 16, 2008, 10:58 AM
obmax1212,

Thanks for your thoughts. I think you hit the crux of the problem. The pro-gay side associates the pro-gunners with the stereotype of the redneck, racist, gaybasher, and the pro-gun side associates gays with flaming, anti-family, big government Berkley-types.

I was surprised to find the Pink Pistols don't have anything going on in Charlotte. I don't know that I can start a chapter but I'm going to contact them and see if I can help in some way.

Arrogant Bastard
April 16, 2008, 08:49 PM
Good thoughts. You're basically espousing a libertarian point of view. So far as there are "liberals" that are into guns, lots of them actually view themselves as libertarians.

I used to consider myself a liberal, though as I sat and reflected on issues more, I realised I had a LOT more in common with libertarians -- though I still have anti-corporate tendencies.

FullEffect1911
April 16, 2008, 09:18 PM
i stumbled upon this post, well thought out and a good read... Thanks for sharing.

Hawk
April 17, 2008, 04:54 PM
Without a doubt the best gun rights conference I ever went to was one organized by David Rostcheck of the Pink Pistols. Something about being an activist for the GLBT community trains you to not take guff.

He also wrote several fine pieces for kaba, with this being my favorite.
http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?ID=2519

Civil rights are civil rights - there's a lot both groups might learn from one another.

B.357
April 17, 2008, 05:36 PM
One difererce is gays like to push there thing into classrooms and other places and lie about the affects of their 'lifestyle'.We just want our GOD given freedoms.

Snake Eyes
April 17, 2008, 05:49 PM
Wow. We made it a whole 10 posts before the ignorance hit the fan. The fact that only 10 literate people posted before we got ignorant is what scares a lot of thinking people away from our side.

The most ignorant 10% seem to be the most vocal, too.

btg3
April 17, 2008, 06:08 PM
So any dissention is ignorance? You ask to for us to "hear you out", but after that, you end the discussion.

Okay.

belus
April 17, 2008, 06:12 PM
I do most of my shooting with the Phoenix AZ Pink Pistols chapter. http://phoenixpinkpistols.org

Last weekend we set up a booth at Pride with a rubber band shooting gallery, lots of literature, and free gun locks. Before this past weekend, we would count between 8 and 16 people at any one of our shoots. After pride we added almost 150 names to our mailing list and handed out about 8-dozen gun locks. Now we're worried about running out of lanes at the local range.

A lot of interest came from people who had "inherited a gun 9 years ago, but never learned to shoot it." Or who were interested in getting their CCW, but who were intimidated by the stereotypical gun culture.

I really appreciate this organization. I think we're helping 'conservatives' realize that homosexuals aren't trying to assault their values and that gay marriage is about two people who want to commit to a stable monogamous life-long relationship. And I think we're awakening 'liberals' to realize that self-defense is their personal responsibility and that carrying a gun for that purpose does not pose a civil liability.

After our success at Pride maybe we'll feel up to getting tables at a gun show.

edit: Here's a quick review of the brief the Pink Pistols filed in support of Heller
http://phoenixpinkpistols.org/2008/02/27/heller-brief/

41magsnub
April 17, 2008, 06:29 PM
Gays with guns are more than fine with me being a live and let live sort of person. I will say this about religions and all other life styles, as long as you don't try to impose your way of life on me or do so in a way that takes away from my freedoms you can do whatever floats your boat.

If the pink pistols are on the same side of the 2nd Amendment as I am then super, we need all the help we can get.

Snake Eyes
April 17, 2008, 06:31 PM
So any dissention is ignorance? You ask to for us to "hear you out", but after that, you end the discussion.


I didn't see any dissent. I saw three misspellings in one sentence. Further the sentiment expressed seemed to express the OP's opinion that homosexuality is some sort of sin or abomination and that homosexuals were liars infiltrating 'our' schools.

Yep. That's ignorant.

I don't ever recall asking you, or any one else, to "hear me out", but I am going to end my discussion about it with this post--but only because it isn't appropriate for The High Road. However, if you really want to discuss it with me, pm me and I'll meet you at APS.

Okay?

btg3
April 17, 2008, 07:00 PM
it isn't appropriate for The High Road.

Agreed.

19-3Ben
April 17, 2008, 07:24 PM
With the exception of B.357, this is a very interesting and insightful post. Thanks for posting Slappy.

B.357:
One difererce is gays like to push there thing into classrooms and other places

What, and as a gun owner, you wouldn't love to have a teacher give a good plug for gun ownership in schools? or even better, to have "eddie the eagle" come into a school and teach kids about responsible gun ownership?
Is your problem just that you don't like kids to learn point of views that disagree with yours? or do you not like it when kids learn about controversial issues?

Wild Deuce
April 17, 2008, 08:05 PM
shhhhh .... I hear a moderator at the door. :uhoh:

btg3
April 17, 2008, 09:28 PM
What if the pro-gun community reached out to the pro-gay community and said "Hey, let's agree to disagree on our respective topics, but work to preserve each other's rights, since this is a civil liberties issue that transcends what you or I think is 'evil?'"
The pro-gay community is already involved in support of 2A. Indeed, are we (pro-gun and pro-gay) not working together for the 2A cause?

The only reason for the pro-gun community to "reach out" to the "pro-gay" community would be to use the 2A platform to legitimize homosexuality and this should in no way be considered.

Snake Eyes
April 17, 2008, 11:38 PM
(C'mon Snake, you already promised yourself, and others, in this thread that you wouldn't do this....you KNOW this is going to lead to NOTHING productive--and will probably mean thread lock. Just let it go, let it go....aw damn here I go again....)

The only reason for the pro-gun community to "reach out" to the "pro-gay" community would be to use the 2A platform to legitimize homosexuality and this should in no way be considered.

So, my fine friend, would you care to enlighten me? Exactly what about homosexuality needs to be legitimized???

Let me guess: You don't believe in evolution either. Eh?

btg3
April 17, 2008, 11:50 PM
Dunno, but they sure keep trying.

(Good guess. Evolution takes more faith than I can muster.)

plexreticle
April 17, 2008, 11:59 PM
People who think sexual preference is a lifestyle choice are living in the closet imo.

btg3
April 18, 2008, 12:00 AM
Maybe that's another foundational issue, but it's not like what the OP proposed in the way of commonality between pro-gun and pro-gay -- or is it?

Snake Eyes
April 18, 2008, 12:08 AM
Ok, so I lied: I don't care if this thread gets locked or I get banned, this is worth arguing about.
Dunno, but they sure keep trying.


So, if I understand you, what you're saying is: You can make no cognitive argument to back up your statements or your beliefs. Is that right? And you don't find this to be a text-book definition of ignorance?

Look, I'm asking for your help. Explain it to me. Please

btg3
April 18, 2008, 09:35 AM
So you're proposing that we have an argument between a liar and an ignoramus... about homosexuality and evolution... on THR?
(Thanks! You made my day.)

Wayne G.
April 18, 2008, 09:43 AM
I nearly spewed coffee all over my keyboard just now. Thanks btg3.

:D:D:D

Ash
April 18, 2008, 10:04 AM
"conservative people tend to be religious in this country."

Snake, it dropped way back in post #6 with this juicy little statement against those of us who are religious. That door swings both ways, and first blood was drawn before post # 10.

You want my support for your firearms rights? You have it. You want to live in a relationship? Fine, go ahead. You don't like one view-point? Fine, point it out. But, you seem to have no problem with a veiled Obama-like assumption about conservatives, guns, and religion.

Don't pontificate on one thing while ignoring another.

Ash

VARifleman
April 18, 2008, 11:42 AM
So, my fine friend, would you care to enlighten me? Exactly what about homosexuality needs to be legitimized???

Let me guess: You don't believe in evolution either. Eh?
In my mind nothing needs to be legitimized, because it really isn't society's concern who (gender or number) a person sleeps with. I think we need to get out of the Victorian psychosis and just respect the choices that a person makes or doesn't make (I hold that some are gay, etc. by choice, but quite a lot aren't).

As for your comment about evolution...there really isn't anything topical about that, although there is no real disconnect between not believing the whole crazy spiel that is taught today and believing that people are right to have their privacy.

Hawk
April 18, 2008, 11:48 AM
Snake, it dropped way back in post #6 with this juicy little statement against those of us who are religious. That door swings both ways, and first blood was drawn before post # 10.

My opinion only but it seems this thread has, thus far, managed to negotiate the minefield rather well - at least it hasn't been locked yet.

Post 6, so far as I can see, is without negative connotation.

"...might be because the more traditionally conservative people tend to be religious in this country."

The big difference is that Obama suggested that religion and guns were associated with bitterness over one's position while post 6 simply notes that many conservatives are religious. I see the negative connotation in Obama's statement but not in post 6.

Many conservatives being religious is not implausible based on demographics.
Many religions denounce homosexuality.
Hence some conservatives may have a negative view of gays.

Nothing negative about either conservatives or religion is needed to produce that surmise.

Many religions also extoll the virtue of tolerance. Hence, proposing activism that involves cooperation with gays may not violate one's religious views as much as would appear to be the case at first blush but I'm no expert in these matters.

Simply noting that someone may be religious doesn't imply anything other than that someone may be religous. Saying they're religious because their job was outsourced on the other hand carries a pantload of negative connotation.

schadenfreude
April 18, 2008, 11:57 AM
First off.... I am pro gay rights so I won't say anything for or against because this isn't the place..... but,

I think, if gun owners could use the example of gay activism, to model our own fight against oppression then we could make some headway. Gun activist are far too quiet in my opinion. Be loud, be aggressive, be in their face and DEMAND our rights. Correct the stereotypes...... Get a damn parade...... I know far too many gun enthusiast who think their NRA membership means they're doing their part and the NRA will work to keep guns in our hands.

Just a thought

Ash
April 18, 2008, 11:59 AM
"As for pro-gun people being anti-gay, that might be because the more traditionally conservative people tend to be religious in this country...The way I see it, ALL minorities have even more reason to want to be pro-gun. Gays, blacks, Jews, etc. All of them are at particular risk of being screwed..."

Perhaps I should have left the whole statement up. Being religious, of course, makes you homophobic and a gay-basher who is more likely to screw the gay fellow.

Ash

zxcvbob
April 18, 2008, 12:20 PM
People who think sexual preference is a lifestyle choice are living in the closet imo.


Emo?

schadenfreude
April 18, 2008, 12:33 PM
I also feel that if I can respect gay rights then I can also respect religion but they always go to the (gays try to push their lifestyle on us) which is ridiculous. I have never had a gay person come to my house and knock on my door through 2 no soliciting signs (one specifically says no religious solicitation) and try to peddle their god to me. Whereas we have 4 religious salesmen per week.

Heavy Metal Hero
April 18, 2008, 01:03 PM
This thread should be locked, but...

I also feel that if I can respect gay rights then I can also respect religion but they always go to the (gays try to push their lifestyle on us) which is ridiculous. I have never had a gay person come to my house and knock on my door through 2 no soliciting signs (one specifically says no religious solicitation) and try to peddle their god to me. Whereas we have 4 religious salesmen per week.

Very true. I have nothing against religion, everyone should be able to practice how they want. At the same time, however, they should allow other people to practice what they want to.

Tully M. Pick
April 18, 2008, 01:22 PM
I also feel that if I can respect gay rights then I can also respect religion but they always go to the (gays try to push their lifestyle on us) which is ridiculous. I have never had a gay person come to my house and knock on my door through 2 no soliciting signs (one specifically says no religious solicitation) and try to peddle their god to me. Whereas we have 4 religious salesmen per week.

That's the funny thing. No gays have ever knocked on my door at 7 am on a Saturday morning looking to convert me from my path of righteousness. I've had plenty of religious door-knockers come try to convert me from my path of wickedness, though. Also, I think that gays and guns have a great deal in common. Say someone is uncomfortable with me open carrying. How can I sit and say that it's ok for me to open carry, but two guys shouldn't make out in public because it makes me uncomfortable? There will always be someone who doesn't agree with your actions, regardless of what they are. Everyone should be free to practice their intrinsic rights however they please. Just don't forget that your rights end where mine begin.

At least in an ideal world.

Ash
April 18, 2008, 01:31 PM
"That's the funny thing. No gays have ever knocked on my door at 7 am on a Saturday morning looking to convert me from my path of righteousness."

Perhaps not you, but I have been hit on by gay men even after I established my orientation (before I got married, though there are times after being married it happens - with said wedding band on hand). That is the same thing. While I might be quite the attractive guy (the women seem to think so), I am very clearly not gay. So, I HAVE had it happen to me on several occasions. And while some might have thought it amusing - alas my response was probably anti-climactic - it is no different and certainly very off-putting and certainly hypocritical.

Of course, all that said, I do think gays should be on board as fellow gun enthusiasts. I have worked with several in very positive ways and in no way thing gays should suffer public oppression. A gay man has just as much right to self-defense as anyone else.

Ash

hso
April 18, 2008, 02:10 PM
And I was foolish enough to think that there was some hope for this thread.:banghead:

Let's be clear about a couple of things.

THR doesn't allow bashing of members or groups.

Pink Pistols has been around a while and has established itself as an effective pro RKBA organization that is very effective at destroying the stereotypes antis toss around about gun owners and RKBA advocates.

They don't need our help. WE need theirs.

Good night all.

jlpskydive
April 18, 2008, 03:44 PM
One thing I have found about my gunnie friends, is that they don't care if you own a gun or not they just want their right to.

One thing I have found about my gay friends, is they don't care if you're gay or not they just want their right to be.

One thing that I have learned about both is, the groups are not mutally exclusive.

YMMV

Wayne G.
April 18, 2008, 05:08 PM
<-------shakin' his head, not believing a moderator showed up, chimed in, and left without a "KER-KLUNK!" :D Sexual orientation, politics, evolution, and now religion! If we add "SHTF" this thread would have it ALL!!!

:uhoh::confused::eek::what::rolleyes::evil::cool::scrutiny:

exar
April 18, 2008, 05:13 PM
If we add "SHTF" this thread would have it ALL!!!

IBTL!!!!!

Slappy McGee
April 18, 2008, 05:38 PM
Where I think the zinger in this argument lies is the basic right/freedom issue. There is a stereotype (obviously unjustified) in many anti-gun circles that gun owners are neanderthals hiding in their basement waiting for WWIII (and of course mindlessly voting republican because they are too stupid to do anything else).

If gunners came out and said not only are members of the gay community in our midst, but there are also people who are not necessarily pro-gay, but see gay rights as a fundamental issue of freedom to be left to the discretion of adults (like gun ownership). Therefore gunners are willing to stand together with the gay rights crowd and support their cause as it's a matter of freedom, not "it's for the children/it makes me uncomfortable/it's scary/I don't like it/etc." I think it's powerful to say your willing to put aside your personal feelings for the larger issue of personal freedoms, on either side. Thus the argument is about freedom (the way we gunners are always trying to couch it) rather than which part of the rifle makes it more evil.

Could you imagine flipping to CNN and seeing a couple folks in suits, a couple more, shall we say, more flamboyant folks and some dudes that look like Larry the Cable Guy decked out in real-tree saying we understand and support each other on the basic issues of freedom that allow gay rights and gun rights, despite discomfort or lack of interest in each other's lifestyle? You'd hear a simultaneous "thunk" across the country and that would be the jaws of the collectivist crowd hitting the floor.

VARifleman
April 18, 2008, 06:33 PM
Perhaps I should have left the whole statement up. Being religious, of course, makes you homophobic and a gay-basher who is more likely to screw the gay fellow.

Excuse me? Just because some people misuse religion, and pick and chose to justify their prejudice, doesn't mean that religion causes homophobia.

conw
April 18, 2008, 06:35 PM
Perhaps not you, but I have been hit on by gay men even after I established my orientation (before I got married, though there are times after being married it happens - with said wedding band on hand). That is the same thing. While I might be quite the attractive guy (the women seem to think so), I am very clearly not gay.

Ash, you seem to be holding gays to a double standard.

You say you are
a) straight
and b) married

You also say that
c) gays hit on you
and d) women find you attractive (and make it obvious)

Do you get offended when women hit on you after you've "established" that you're married? How are you "establishing" that you're straight? Do you really "establish" either of these things? I would think that as a mature adult, rebuking advances is a fairly easy process. Thus, either I'm missing something here, or you are actually offended by the fact that gays are attracted to you, and not the fact that they make advances that seem unsolicited.

PS, I may be unfair here in assuming that the women don't offend you; you didn't HAVE to mention it, since it wasn't necessarily germane, if that were the case. The feel I got was that it was ok for women to fawn, but not men. (Which would make sense if you are unmarried, but not if you are, as your marital and sexual statuses are, respectively, obstacles)

obmax1212
April 18, 2008, 06:40 PM
You want my support for your firearms rights? You have it. You want to live in a relationship? Fine, go ahead. You don't like one view-point? Fine, point it out. But, you seem to have no problem with a veiled Obama-like assumption about conservatives, guns, and religion.

Don't pontificate on one thing while ignoring another.

My statement in no way was an assault on religious people or their veiws. It is a FACT that conservatives in this country tend to be religious. Period. Most people in this country tend to be religious. That too is a fact. I don't understand how that fails to highlight the fact that gays tend not to trust pro-gun organizations because they (the gays) associate them with religious views that they perceive as a negative force in their lives. This isn't to say that religion in fact is anti-gay, or that when it is it is violently so.

Again, that isn't a personal attack. I wasn't the one bringing up evolution, the "gay agenda", and all the rest. That was two other posters. In the future, don't use my posts to justify your involvement in an argument that belongs on a different forum.

nicki
April 18, 2008, 07:12 PM
Being gay or being a gun owner is not a lifestyle choice, but flaunting your choices into people's faces is.

Walking down the street with loaded sidearms, a loaded semi on your back and a shirt saying, patience my *ss, I'm going to kill someone is perfectly within our rights, but it is something that might make some people uneasy if you took a stroll thorugh the local mall on a busy Sat afternoon.

The LBGT community effectively does this when some participants engage in lewd behavior at the "gay pride parades".

People are protective of their children and are concerned about the influence that school teachers will have on "their children".

The reality is many people still believe being LBGT is a lifestyle choice and while they may tolerate what consenting adults do, it is a lifestyle few parents want their children to adopt.

Sceince will probably show in the next few years that our gender and sexual orientation are predisposed biologically,

Of course, when Magellan circled the globe, it still took a few generations to pass before people started to accept that the world was round.

Many people are uncomfortable with the gun culture because they don't understand the core of why we have guns in America.

Most gun owners don't understand it either, especially the "Sporting guys".

The core reason why we have a constitutional right to guns is so that if our government gets out of control, that we will exercise our moral duty to replace our out of control government.

Members of the LBGT community must make a shift on the gun issue and the reasons are numerous.

Being anti gun for any minority group is being suicidal.

Right now our country is going the wrong way on many fronts, especially economics.

Economically our country is in a similar situation that Germany was in the 20's.
Our money is crashing.

Germany was economically crushed by the treaty of Versailles, we are being crushed by Social Security, Medicare, maintaining massive overseas military spending, a destroyed manufacturing base and massive trade deficits.

When the German ecomony crashed, Germans panicked, and they voted for a savior, his name was Adolf. Adolf restored order, eliminated freedom and he got rid of many people.

He rose to power because he told the Germans that it was not their fault, rather it was the fault of the Jews.

When America crashes, there will be those who will say it is God's Wrath.

They will point fingers, they will blame groups for the decline of America.

A religious zealot would easily point to the LBGT community and say that tolerance of the LBGT community is the reason America is falling.

People don't like to own up to creating their own problems. They blame others.

The Victim mindset allows you to avoid responsiblity for your actions and it is rampant across the country. It is a social cancer that many so called leaders promote because they acquire power from it.

Ameircans will give up freedom for security, they did it before and they will do it again.

Americans will sacrifice segments of the population for so called national security concerns, they did it before and they will do it again.

Logically Gays should be pro gun, but people's actions are controlled by their emotions.

Logically, Gun rights activists should support gay rights, but their emotions won't let them do it.

Nuff said.

Nicki

hso
April 18, 2008, 07:42 PM
Ooops. Sorry for the delayed detonation.

Ker-klunk

Blasted jet lag.

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