Help recommend Duty load for security force


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mrstang01
January 12, 2003, 06:11 PM
The security force for the company I work for is armed, and are issued S&W Model 13's. The security group recently got a new manager, who changed their ammo. They were carrying .38 Special Silvertips as opposed to the .357 the guns are chambered in due to a previous manager's concerns about overpenetration.

The new manager has a Special Forces background and changed their ammo to .38 Special FMJ????!!!!! Now, please note, we are in the middle of a typical downtown urban area in Louisville, KY. The more gun savvy of the guards is obviously concerned about overpenetration with this round if they should ever have to fire it. The new manager says he is willing to listen to reasons to choose a different ammo.

So, please list your suggestions for carry ammo and reasons for choosing it. Thanks!

Michael

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M58
January 12, 2003, 06:26 PM
1. Is the FML ammo change in a written memo from the new manager?
2. If so, it is his problem.
3. Before you go to a lot of trouble, ask him what source would convince him; chances are it is a PR move to pacify the guards--giving them a chance to comment on the change.
4. His actions indicate his true intent.
5. His next step may be to disarm them. I have seen this cycle before.
6. The pretext will be that the guards gripe about the ammo.
7. Source: Bank One Columbus.

Dave Markowitz
January 12, 2003, 06:50 PM
If the .38 FMJ are full power loads, it is going to overpenetrate in a human body, just like 9mm Ball will. If, OTH, the .38 FMJ loads are GI Ball equivalent -- 130 grain FMJ at ~ 800 FPS -- it's really anemic, with little stopping power.

Reduced stopping power can lead to more shots being fired per incident, which carries the increased risk of missing and launching a lethal projectile to who knows where. That's not good for liability, to put it mildly.

How proficient are the guards? If they are reasonable shots, consider a .357 Magnum load, but one that's not "full bore." E.g., the Winchester 110 grain JHP or Remington's 125 grain JHP at about 1200 fps.

If they are restricted to .38s, then the best compromise between penetration, controllabilty, and stopping power would be the 158 grain LSWCHP, AKA the "FBI Load."

If the guards can't shoot the FBI loads ok, then they shouldn't be carrying a loaded firearm, period.

Jim March
January 12, 2003, 07:13 PM
38Spl roundnose is the WORST possible choice. Dangerous to bystanders, but poor stopping power. This is WELL documented, and is damn near the one thing the Facklerites and MarshallSanowoids agree on.

The 38Spl 158 LSWC-HP +P has two advantages:

1) It works. It may not be the "ultimate", but it's reliably been geekin' bad guys since Eliot Ness worked street crime.

2) It doesn't have a "whiz-bang high-tech super-death-ray rep" of the sort that can (rarely) get you additional flak in court.

With both of those factors, it's a load you can sell this idiot on.

Again, I'm not saying it's the best, in fact we just had a post on 38snubbie loads and the Winchester 130grain +P Supreme looks really good because it's opening from a 2", but isn't quite at max expansion...that implies that if you drive it a bit faster out of a 4", it'll be right in it's peak speed zone.

WESHOOT2
January 12, 2003, 11:57 PM
HIGHLY RECOMMEND contacting Pro Load www.proload.com for comprehensive discussion.

If I didn't make ammo I'd buy Pro Load.

Blueduck
January 13, 2003, 11:00 PM
new manager has a Special Forces background and changed their ammo to .38 Special FMJ????!!!!! Figures, only load he's likely ever messed with so thats what he changes it to :rolleyes:

I think companies mainly look to "Court proof" themselves with decisions. Stacks of articles and backyard jelly test by "amatures" are not likley to be well recieved even if they are researched and well done.

I'd suggest you simply have documenation as to what various LEO agencies use (might wan't to pick the ones who carry what you like). This shows an actual "reason" to be carrying a certain load. i.e. "We do not have the facilities or expertise in our company to evaluate revolver loads so we selected load "x" because it passed the performance standards of the--- (FBI, DEA,Highway patrol etc..) which have far more experince in these matters than ourselves".

Could also simply write to S/W and ask thier opinion, might get something back from them you like. WHichever route you take I can guarantee FMJ 38 rounds will not be the overwhelming suggestions put forth:cool:

FWIW Missouri Probation and Parole issue Winchester 125 Grain Silvertip +p's and authorize 147 +P+ Hydra-shoks.

sixgun_symphony
January 13, 2003, 11:22 PM
http://www.safetyslug.com/

The Glaser Safety slug is made to disintegrate inside the target for protection against overpenetration. The design also prevents ricochet.

Poohgyrr
January 13, 2003, 11:43 PM
Geez, what a winner. Those rounds were outdated for civilian (vs military) use by the '70's at the latest. I do know some places that were issuing them long after that though.

FWIW, my new Capt is from SF. He wants everyone qualified with an M4 in the car. So there is hope. Keep the faith.

trapshooter
January 14, 2003, 01:58 AM
Philosophically, I agree with Jim March (who probably knows more about this anyway):

Again, I'm not saying it's the best, in fact we just had a post on 38snubbie loads and the Winchester 130grain +P Supreme looks really good because it's opening from a 2", but isn't quite at max expansion...that implies that if you drive it a bit faster out of a 4", it'll be right in it's peak speed zone.

The +P or +P+ loads fragment better (good if you miss, less liability exposure, hopefully), and do a better job regarding terminal ballistics.

Ball ammo in the service is a reliability issue in semi-autos. Revos are not commonly used, even in the SF community. (Lack of firepower). Also, maybe the new boss is still working under that 'Geneva Convention' horsepuckey. Does not apply in your case. How you tell him that in an accepatble way is up to you, but you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. Trite but true.

Just some thoughts.

Dave Williams
January 14, 2003, 03:37 AM
is that it's cheaper than the new "premium" loads like the Gold Dot, Golden Sabre, and SXT. A box of 50 Remington LSWC-HP +P 158gr is around 15 bucks at Gander Mountain. The others are that much for 20. Makes a big difference when you are buying multiple boxes, like for an agency, and is a relevant issue.

I'm not impressed by the designer "premium" .38 rounds. I'm aware of an accidental shooting with a Golden Sabre .38 out of a 4" barrel that did not expand due to being plugged with bone. I believe the soft lead of the FBI load would have upset and expanded at least a little.

Dave

Jim March
January 14, 2003, 05:35 PM
Dave, you won't hear me disagree AT ALL. Those ol' 158s work.

What does impress me about the Winchester 130 Supreme +P is it's *huge* hollowpoint cavity. That means that on a bone hit, the thinner "walls" of the "cup" should collapse and get you some expansion.

My take: that 130 is probably a better round in most cases, but not by a lot. And the price difference is exactly as you say. The recoil on those 130s is less though, and in a really light gun that might make a differece. I'd probably pick one way or the other based more on accuracy in my particular gun versus any other factor.

Dave Williams
January 14, 2003, 05:43 PM
I think the SXT is the best of the premiums.
A buddy just picked up one of the PD Centennials that you can't shoot the the FBI load in, for an ankle gun. He had to have it, over my recommendation of a 442/642, specifically so he could shoot the FBI load in it. I recommended the SXT based on some of the test results I've seen on the net and that's what he got. I believe it was designed for a 2" barrel. The head use of force trainer for the OSHP recommended the SXT to my academy class for the .38 snub. FWIW

Dave

Tom B
January 17, 2003, 04:07 AM
My Armored Truck Co limits revolver carry to 38spl JHP. Even though we may carry 9mm or 40cal Semis I chose a new M66 S&W and stoke it with Cor Bon 125gr JHP+P+. That is the warmest factory 38spl I have found. I also carry Win Silvertip 125gr +P and Fed Nyclads in my 38spls.

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