Why 870 over 1300?


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natedog
January 14, 2003, 08:57 PM
Why am I always hearing people saying "An 870 is what all 1300s hope to be when they grow up"? Is the 870 all that superior in design? Is it at all better than the 1300, or is it just personal preferance?

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romulus
January 14, 2003, 09:49 PM
For me it's the materials...I'd be more than willing to consider the 1300 if the receiver were steel rather than aluminum.

Gary A
January 14, 2003, 10:39 PM
Romulus said, "For me it's the materials...I'd be more than willing to consider the 1300 if the receiver were steel rather than aluminum." I see your point and generally agree but many quality firearms, including shotguns, use alloy receivers. If the bolt locks up with the barrel extension ala Win 1300 and is not stressing the receiver in any way, why is the alloy receiver inferior? Asking because I, too, am interested in exactly why the 870 is superior. I'm mulling over my next purchase. I like them both but have to say the 1300 is pretty smooth.

Dave McCracken
January 14, 2003, 11:07 PM
The 1300's a darn good shotgun. The 870 has the well earned rep of working no matter what. Longevity seems to be well over 100K target rounds, maybe 75K(WEG) if the diet includes the heavies like goose and buck loads.

The 1300, compared shot to shot with the 870 will probably wear out sooner. However, I doubt one shooter can do it.

And to be objective, I've been shooting 870s since the late 50's.

All I can say is, get what you want to. The software is much more important than the hardware...

PJR
January 14, 2003, 11:09 PM
The 1300 and it's predecessor the 1200 replaced the legendary Model 12 which was becoming expensive to manufacture and was pricing itself out of the market. When the 1200 was introduced in the 1960's it was a real let down compared to the Model 12.

During the same period, Remington was in the second decade of producing the 870 Wingmaster. It replaced the Model 12 as the standard of excellence for pump guns.

However, the cost of producing the Wingmaster was going up so Remington brought in the Express in the late 80's. It's the same gun but not nearly as well put together as the Wingmaster of a generation ago. Since the mid 90's Remington quality control isn't what it used to be and IMHO Winchester has improved the quality of its guns.

My bias is towards the 870 because I've owned one for years and shotgun prejudices die hard. That said, I don't think the current Remington production guns are any better than 1300 particularly with that stupid locking safety and the dimpled magazine. If I had to buy a pump gun today it might well be a 1300.

Paul

romulus
January 14, 2003, 11:41 PM
...why is the alloy receiver inferior?
Gary A, it's purely an aesthetic consideration...It's wood and steel now for me. Aluminum is not a pleasant metal no matter how you slice it or anodize it.

natedog
January 14, 2003, 11:46 PM
I have on old model 12, made in 1953. do you think a 1300 would compare to it? or would old world steel and wood win over alloy and synthetic? do you think the workmanship/ craftmanship would compare, or would i only be able to find this in a $1000+ shotgun? benelli comes to mind....

Dave McCracken
January 15, 2003, 07:50 AM
Nate, the 12 is intricate machinery,smooth, well made and super rugged.

The 1300 is well made from stamped parts, and may possibly not be as durable. The differences will not be obvious for decades, if not generations.

Model 12s have a "Cult" following. Good as the 1300 is, I doubt it'll ever have much of a Cult.

In any case, both are good, using shotguns...

ruger357
January 15, 2003, 08:22 AM
I like the steel reciever, and the ease of disassembly of the 870.

HS/LD
January 15, 2003, 01:20 PM
I think that because the Remington 870 has served so many people for so long (Dave McC et al) that there is going to be a justified bias towards the gun.
Justified because the gun is reliable, dependable and does everything asked of it.
Is it a good gun? Yes.
Is it a great gun? Yes.

Is a Winchester 1300 worse or better?

When I was selecting a shotgun I wanted to buy something that I didn't have to mess with. I didn't want to add mag extensions or sling mounts. I liked the idea of an aluminum receiver. (There are just too many quality firearms that use aluminum receivers or frames to worry about the metal).

The 1300 Defender I purchased came stock with 8 rounds capacity (which suited me rather than having to remove dimples and purchase extensions), sling mounts, and Hi-Viz bead sight. It fit me and felt good. I tried an 870 Wingmaster and a 1300 Defender and preferred the pump action of the 1300, the Speed Pump feature due to the rotary bolt seemed very smooth and very, very fast (the company claims 3 shots in less than half a second!!) I also preferred the location of the safety (trigger finger extended same as pistol rather than the on the 870) The action release being located rear of the trigger group also means not having to shift hand firing positions for me.

There is an abundance of accessories available for the 1300 e.g. sidesaddle shell carriers and forearm lights, at the same price as for the 870 so that was not an issue either.

I have over 2500 shells through my 1300 Defender and have not had any problems at all. The last trip to the range it sucked down over 1000 shells with out being cleaned and functioned flawlessly. There is no excess wear in the receiver to cause any worry about the aluminum, as the rotary bolt design locking completely with the barrel places no stress on the receiver.

Another little piece of info is that the Winchester 1300 is actually manufactured by U.S. Repeating Arms Co. and as such is made under license from the famous military manufacturer FN Herstal. FN is world renowned for there excellence if firearms manufacturing.

Check out this link to the FN Herstal Police Shotgun (http://www.fnhusa.com/contents/sg_police.htm)

Winchester 1300 Defender (http://www.winchester-guns.com/prodinfo/catalog/detail.asp?cat_id=512&type_id=104&cat=012C)

So the reality of which is superior comes down to which features you like best.

I paid just $239 plus tax for my 1300 Defender NIB and couldn't be happier, the Rem 870 was the same price but I would have had to add the accessories I detailed earlier.

So for a lightweight, strong, reliable pump action the FN (Winchester) 1300 rotary bolt makes a lot of sense.

Well I like mine anyway :)

Regards,
HS/LD

JohnBT
January 15, 2003, 06:06 PM
Would I want to pole a boat through the mud with an aluminum gun? Nah. Would I want to paddle a boat with an aluminum gun? Nope. Would I want to use an aluminum gun for a club? No thank you.

And I can't believe they used a model number with a 13 in it. Bad luck all the way around. Just kidding I think.

John

P.S. - And please stop mentioning the Model 12 in the same post with an 870 or 1300. It should have it's own forum.

norielX
January 15, 2003, 06:19 PM
That's why I chose the 870. the 870 fit me pretty well, and the controls are right were I like 'em. The steel receiver is another factor for me. My brother has a 1300 and he likes it just fine. I won't shoot it because I'm so used to the 870, I don't want anything to throw off my habits. The 1300 is a great gun for the people that choose it.

natedog
January 15, 2003, 07:41 PM
Now I understand what Dave meant when he said that there's a cult following Model 12s....;)

PATH
January 15, 2003, 11:23 PM
I have two 1300's in Full Advantage Camo. I have the Turkey 1300 and the Deer 1300 with rifled barrel. Never had a problem with them and they shoot fine. I know you are going to ask...Why did you buy another 1300 instead of another barrel. Well that is a long story but suffice to say I am happy the way things turned out!

Gary A
January 16, 2003, 12:21 AM
Romulus - thanks, that's an answer that makes perfect sense to me. One nice thing about pumps is they really aren't expensive compared to SxS or O/U's or rifles or even most pistols so it's a bit easier to indulge and try different things to see how they work out.

JohnBT
January 16, 2003, 12:21 AM
I don't even own a Model 12.

There were more than 2 million made between 1912 and 1980.

When was the last time you saw one for sale?

It's not because they fell apart.

John

blades67
January 16, 2003, 02:03 AM
I've seen a couple of Model 12's for sale in the last few months.:rolleyes:

I prefer the 1300 to the 870 because the action is smoother, yet feels tighter.

The action on my 1300 is smooth enough that I can load a round into the magazine, and while holding the gun with only one hand with a firing grip (safety on, finger outside the triggerguard), release the carrier allowing the action to open, ejecting a shotshell from the magazine onto the elevator, then chamber the shell with a forward thrust. (Gun level and pointed down range.) My 1300 will also eject the empty hull after firing if I keep my hand off the pump, all I have to do then is push the pump forward to load the next round.:cool:

My "stock as a stove" 1300 can, with 100% reliability, load, fire and eject any shotshell from the 1" Minishell to 3" Magnums. 870's choke on the Minishells without some modification. The 1300 gives me more home defense ammo options than the 870.

More aftermarket products are available for the 870 primarily because it is used by more police departments. (Cops can break ReBar if left unsupervised, what chance does an 870 stand?:neener: :evil: ) That's why the 870 has so many aftermarket parts.

SpecialForces
January 18, 2010, 04:31 PM
Seems that the 1300 having an aluminum reciever is a problem with some on here. I own a Francci 20 guage with aluminum reciever that is 60 years old and still shooting just fine. It, like my 1300 is very light, which is a plus, not to mention the difference in price of the 870. BTW, the most reliable assault weapon in the world today is the AK-47 and is made of stamped parts..

evbutler462
January 18, 2010, 04:56 PM
The feed throat on those Winchesters is a pain to change out. You'll never change one on the 870. I sold my post-1964 Winchester shotguns of the 1200-1500 design due to the flimsy parts.

41magsnub
January 18, 2010, 05:00 PM
I own both and and prefer my 1300 over the wingmaster. It is lighter and the controls on the 870 are all backwards for me. It comes from learning to shoot with a Win Model 270 .22 which has the same manual of arms as the winchester shotguns.

MCgunner
January 18, 2010, 05:43 PM
For me it's the materials...I'd be more than willing to consider the 1300 if the receiver were steel rather than aluminum.

If that were the case, it'd then be a heavy pig just like the 870. :rolleyes:

Actually, I think the 870 koolaid drinkers just like to put down every other shotgun on earth. I can't say the 1300 has any advantages over the 870, really. I don't really care about what the receiver is made out of, above quip not-with-standing. Any of these guns will outlast me and the aluminum receivers are lighter, give me a little better swing with less mass to get to the shoulder making them a tad quicker. As pumps go, I like Mossberg ergos. The Winchesters do fit me perfectly, though, right out of the box without any shimming. Shimming ain't a big deal, though.

6 of one, half dozen of the other, I say. I like 'em all, just some better'n others. My bias tends to be for waterfowl hunting, too, as that's what most of my hunting centers around, though I do hunt other birds and animals. I hunted with a wingmaster for years. I found Mossbergs work better for me, especially being a lefty. I did get the safety modded to left hand on my Winchester, but I do prefer the tang safety the Mossberg uses a lot better. All my shotguns except the winchester and the two single shots (hammer guns) have tang safeties. Of course, two of 'em are hammerless doubles. :D My next shotgun will most likely be an O/U, so that one will be a tang safety, too. Might be a BPS 10 first, steel receiver, for goose hunting. Weight is welcome on a 10. The BPS is the perfect lefty gun, the perfect ergos.

MCgunner
January 18, 2010, 05:58 PM
I'd never buy a model 12 to hunt with. Would not be steel shot compatible. That's almost all I shoot anymore, due to these things called game laws. Breaking a game law can put you in prison faster than committing murder.

I guess, if you could afford 1500 bucks for a very used pump gun, Bismuth shot at 5 bucks a round wouldn't be a big barrier. :rolleyes:

Blakenzy
January 18, 2010, 06:06 PM
Would I want to pole a boat through the mud with an aluminum gun? Nah. Would I want to paddle a boat with an aluminum gun? Nope. Would I want to use an aluminum gun for a club? No thank you.

Aw, c'mon don't be a cheapskate and get yourself a nice wooden oar...

Anyway, neither the 870 or the 1300 have double extractors, which may facilitate a failure-to-extract jam if a rusty or dirty shell is chambered (unlike Mossbergs). I like the 1300 better due to the action; it seems faster and smoother. The 870 has more aftermarket support. One is heavier than the other for a given barrel length (guess which)... are you going to carry it a lot or shoot it a lot, perhaps both?

At the end of the day they will both do the exact same thing, with the exact same fanfare... it is a matter of personal preference.

ATAShooter
January 18, 2010, 06:13 PM
This is a 1200 Trap bought at the Grand in 1964. My Father was the original owner. It has over 275,000 rounds put thru it and has been crushing targets every week since '64. The way you see it, is the way Dad bought it. It has never been redone, nor repaired. Still has the original Winchester recoil pad on it. Although alot of folks didn't care for the alloy receiver, I think it would take alot of ones life to try to wear it out.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/ATAShooter/100_0352.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/ATAShooter/100_0351.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/ATAShooter/100_0350.jpg

SSN Vet
January 18, 2010, 06:36 PM
1300s unlock immediately when the trigger is pulled and can be cycled "wicked fast"

Winchester quality bombed when the union took over the plant and after FN dumped major money into New Haven and still couldn't turn a profit they shut it down.

Unfortunately, they were contractually obliged to not produce the M70, M94 and M1300 at any other plant for a number of years.

That's changing, and the new M70s coming out of the FN plant in N.C. are reportedly some of the best ever produced.

FN already makes their combat shotgun (which if I understand correctly, is identical to the 1300 combat).

I have an 80s vintage 1300 DLX and it is a sweet shotgun. Very nicely finished Walnut and blueing.

I can't get into bead blasted and birch 870s.

Now a new Wingmaster with the LC barrel. That would be sweet.... sweet and pricey, but sweet!

1KPerDay
January 18, 2010, 06:44 PM
Nice scattergun, ATAshooter.

BTW folks this is a 7-year-old thread. :)

MCgunner
January 18, 2010, 06:46 PM
WOW, that's some pretty wood on that trap gun!

[Pb]
January 18, 2010, 06:55 PM
I think the 1300 is more to my liking... it is lighter and smoother. It won't break from anything I expect to do with it, same as the 870. Who's even ever heard of a broken 1300 receiver? I hear this criticism with Mossberg shotguns as well, but I don't think it's relevant. It just isn't likely to happen.

Gary A
January 18, 2010, 07:02 PM
I notice I posted a reply to this thread back in 2003. Wow! At that time I had two 1300s and one 870. Now I have no 1300s and 3 870s. I'm not going to argue that the 870 is "better" and I did really like my 1300s. Eventually, I got another 870 and somewhat "lucked into" a third. Wanting to consolidate in a number of areas, I ended up going with the 870, even though it is heavier, largely because of USRAC's issues with closings, discontinuations, etc., etc. When they re-announced the "Speed Pump" a couple years back, it was a gun made in Turkey (don't know where they make them now). I'm not against Turkish guns per se, but given a choice, I chose to go with an American manufacturer of a classic, time-proven shotgun, the 870. People can debate whether the 1300 is as durable as an 870. No one debates whether an 870 is as durable as a 1300. I like them both and the Winchester 1300s I owned were very fast and very smooth. That said, I run the 870 just fine and I have faith in it. Regardless of what barrel combination I choose to run, the chassis on my 870s are all "police models". I have faith in their quality and their reliability. Parkerizing is not as pretty as blued but it's as good as the finish on my Winchesters, or better. I have nothing against Birch but two of mine are walnut and the third is synthetic. I'm happy but see no reason why someone who chooses a 1300 would be unhappy.

eastbank
January 18, 2010, 07:03 PM
i have seen alot of trap guns( i have been shooting trap since 1960) and not one looked like that after 275,000, that goes for all makes on the line. just the handleing alone wears the finish off of recievers, now take pumping it over 275,000 time loading and shooting it and pumping it to unload the empty. and you will see alot wear on the breech block,op rod and reciever and the trigger too. i use a bt-100 and i have worn the gold plate off of several triggers and the sides of the reciever are all most silver now. and i don,t have near 275,000 shells thru it. if any one has any shotgun with 275,000 shells thru it,please post pictures of it. eastbank.

19-3Ben
January 18, 2010, 07:36 PM
I have an 870, and a mossberg 500.

I bought my father a 1300.
Here are my rankings for various criteria:

Ease of Disassembly:
1st- 870
2nd- 500
3rd- 1300

Smooth operation:
1st- 1300
2nd-870
3rd- 500

Subjective feel of durability
1st- 870
500 and 1300 tie.

In the end, the 1300 is probably going to last just as long, and be just as tough as the 870 and it's smoother than the 870. The only real, practical downside is that it's not nearly as easy to disassemble for cleaning as the 870.

19-3Ben
January 18, 2010, 07:38 PM
1Kperday- Darnit. Totally missed that it's an ancient thread.

jlv08
January 18, 2010, 08:29 PM
I've had a couple in 1200/1300 and a semi auto model 140 that was real nice and reliable. I've fixed a few that were not operative due to neglect and basically just needed a detail cleaning.

One in particular looked like it was gummed up like an old small block chevy valve train with high miles and very few oil changes.

Once cleaned, they were up and running and have been slaying doves and other small game and no doubt, are not being cleaned.

I don't mind cleaning them as it saves me the expense of having to pay for a hunting lease.;)

The Winchester 1200/1300 are very good guns and can be had for very reasonable money around these parts.

ol' scratch
January 18, 2010, 09:22 PM
I guess it depends on what fits you and which is cheaper. The 1300 I looked at when I was shopping was a nice gun, but the 870 I looked at fit my huge monkey arms better and was cheaper. I was use to hunting with a heavier shotgun-Ithaca Mag-10. I tend to raise the lighter shotguns too quickly.

Both are great shotguns. The 870, I would think, has more aftermarket parts because everybody owns one.

Virginian
January 19, 2010, 03:27 AM
The Model 12 has a following because some people equate hand work in building with quality. I have a friend who collects Model 12s. He babies all his guns. He has spent more on gunsmith repairs to his Model 12s than I have spent on new shotguns in the last 30 years. I do not see where one in good shape is a bit better than a Wingmaster.
The Wingmaster and the Express are miles apart in my opinion. I would say the 1300 is at least the equal of the Express, and if you like the controls better, go for it. A Wingmaster, either new or 60 years old still has the edge in my book. Smooth, I like the controls, the fit, and the balance.

ATAShooter
January 19, 2010, 10:18 AM
Eastbank, I think the reason the finish isn't worn off of the receiver so bad is because the forearm on it comes way far back when it is open to carry it without carrying it by the actual receiver. It does have some wear spots on the finish externally, here and there, she isn't mint. Dad was a freak about this thing. It got wiped down externally after every event ( a tradition I still do to it ). It has shot the elements, cold, rain, snow, ect. ( we lived in Dayton, in Northridge, about 2 miles from Vandalia then ). Dad would listen to the weather report the day before a shoot, then if precipitation was in the forecast, he would put Vasaline on a rag and put a thin film on it, then clean it all off after the shoot. One time I borrowed it to go on a dove hunt, and when he found out it had been in a field ( He thought I used it for trap ) he beat my a$$ royally. I think ( if I remember right ) Dad said he paid 175.00 for it brand new, and had to make payments on it thru the local loan company ( in 1964, Dad's mortgage payment was 67.00 mo. ). He said there were 6 there on the rack that year with what HE called "Glass Type" wood. He said the rest had the grain, but was regular oil finish. Aint that some crap?, a trap gun for 175.00?

19-3Ben
January 19, 2010, 04:22 PM
Based on an online inflation calculator, $175.00 in 1964 dollars is equal to $1202.37 in 2008 dollars (the most recent year they could calculate.)

Sounds about right to me.

twofifty
January 19, 2010, 04:41 PM
ATAshooter, your dad's shotgun is a real beauty. Thx. for the picture.

DAVIDSDIVAD
January 19, 2010, 11:58 PM
If Barrett is willing to use aluminum in a .50 caliber rifle, I don't see why some people make a big deal out of using it on a 12 ga shotgun.

eastbank
January 20, 2010, 10:00 AM
a good friend bought the trap grade mossberg they made(i think it was in the 70,s) with the high rib and trap stock and shot in out in 4 years. its just a personal choice and i prefer steel. i think the weak part in the win. 1200-1300-1400 series was the long spring ejector. and the big barret 50 is not fired enought in the service to break it and the light weight is a big plus. if aluminum would take the pounding the m-2 50 ca. machine gun would have been made in aluninum to save weight. you just don,t see aluminum recievered shotguns on the trap,skeet or sporting clays ranges, unless its a beginer. in the hunting field its a totaly different game and light weight is a big plus as you carry them more than you shoot them. eastbank

Milkmaster
January 20, 2010, 11:12 AM
If you have a 1300 with an aluminum receiver (they all do), AND you are using it for home defense, AND you are shooting it enough to wear it out any time soon. Then let me suggest you move away from where you live now. The shotgun receiver being steel or aluminum is NOT your worst problem :)

My opinion as to why you don't see aluminum receivers on guns at the trap range is weight. I added weight to my trap setup 1300 for that very reason. Trap shooters typically use a heavier gun to help reduce felt recoil. Steel = heavy. An exception to that is an Ithaca 37. There isn't a pump made that I have shot that kicks more than a light weight Ithaca 37 and it is steel. I also added weight recently to make my 37 more recoil friendly during repeated shots at the trap range just because I want to shoot it often.

The nicer trap guns are indeed steel and typically weigh a bit more. That is not to mention the trap grade guns are higher end shotguns. I don't always use a pump for my trap gun, but I have several pumps and have them set up for trap, because that is where I use them.

Friends, shoot what you have whether it is steel, aluminum, or whatever. Enjoy the hobby or put meat on the table. I can't remember the last time I saw any major brand shotgun of either material that was worn out beyond functionality if not abused. I would suppose we may see even more exotic materials used in years to come, and I guess they will be debated as well.

A lot of grief over nothing? I guess it is still fun to debate though huh? Maybe the weather will break soon and we all won't be staying inside as much arguing about such things. :)

ATAShooter
January 20, 2010, 11:45 AM
Oh, I am not arguing which is better, no no, please don't take it like that. Anything man made can fail. Heck, when Glocks came out, I was like, " Who the hell wants a plastic pistol ?". I now own an XD and love it.:D

chas08
January 20, 2010, 12:02 PM
ATAshooter, your dad's shotgun is a real beauty. Thx. for the picture.
I'll second that. Beautiful wood!!!! I wouldn't be surprised if it cost less than $200 back in the day either.

md7
January 20, 2010, 12:26 PM
ATA, nice 1200 there. thanks for the pic.

md7
January 20, 2010, 12:29 PM
and i'd also like to add that i own both the 1300 and 870 in varying configurations. i have no real preference for one over another. just like em both. i don't care about aluminum vs. steel receivers.

Big Bill
January 20, 2010, 10:39 PM
I have 2 - 870s and a Mossberg Maveric and a Benelli nova and a Winchester 1300; I like the winchester best.

DAVIDSDIVAD
January 20, 2010, 11:42 PM
a good friend bought the trap grade mossberg they made(i think it was in the 70,s) with the high rib and trap stock and shot in out in 4 years. its just a personal choice and i prefer steel. i think the weak part in the win. 1200-1300-1400 series was the long spring ejector. and the big barret 50 is not fired enought in the service to break it and the light weight is a big plus. if aluminum would take the pounding the m-2 50 ca. machine gun would have been made in aluninum to save weight. you just don,t see aluminum recievered shotguns on the trap,skeet or sporting clays ranges, unless its a beginer. in the hunting field its a totaly different game and light weight is a big plus as you carry them more than you shoot them. eastbank

What did we learn today class?


wear and tear on a pump action 12 ga shotgun = wear and tear on a .50BMG heavy machine gun > wear and tear on a .50 bmg bolt gun.

Mr. T
January 21, 2010, 05:07 PM
I've had a 1300 for years...it's actually a Ted Williams, but I'm told it's just a re-packaged Winchester 1300...anyway it's the best and most versatile shotgun that I own.:)

19-3Ben
January 21, 2010, 06:09 PM
What did we learn today class?


wear and tear on a pump action 12 ga shotgun = wear and tear on a .50BMG heavy machine gun > wear and tear on a .50 bmg bolt gun.

You actually made me lough out loud, all alone in the house!

SwampWolf
January 23, 2010, 11:52 PM
Something that matters to me (more than most, I suppose :) ) is the location of the safety on any firearm, but especially on a shotgun. When rating them, I rank the tang-mounted safety tops (no pun intended). The second best location (and only one shotgun had it to my knowledge) is where the safety is found on the long-discontinued Browning Double Auto-behind the trigger guard, not just in back. Thirdly, a safety on the front part of the trigger guard (like the one on the 1300). And my last choice is where the one on the 870 is-at the back of the guard.

Safety locations are not "deal-breakers" for me and any location can be adapted to with practice. But, everything else being equal (and they almost are when comparing the 870 to the 1300), I look where the safety is.

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