Bottom Eject Pump Rifle, in .357Mag


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twoblink
December 26, 2002, 12:18 PM
I am still on a quest for one of these, (as the ultimate gallery gun) I don't like lever actions all that much.

So I have begun to start preliminary design specifications of a rifle that I will (hopefully after learning how to use auto cad) draw up.

I will be designing it after the Brownings; (Browning BPS/Ithaca shotguns) but with .357Mag/.38Spl, and of course same thing for .44Mags.

So far, I have desided on a 16" barrel version, and a 22" barrel version. The .357Mag's don't have enough juice to keep the bullet accelerating past 16" of barrel, and so a 16" is ideal, what you would want a 22" for is sight radius. But a .44Mag will keep a bullet accelerating at 22". Also, a 16" is handy.

I-bar front sight (ghost fiber sight) peep rear is what I can think of at the moment, sight suggestions welcome. I guess I can put integrated scope mounts into it, although that's probably not a great gun to scope.

I would like a recessed crown, and maybe polygonal rifling for easy cleaning and accuracy.

I'm thinking octogonal barrel shape like the old gallery guns??

Suggestions? This will be my pet project that I hope to have come to life in a few years.. Of course, I want to build a fun rifle, and so I'd love to hear your comments on what you'd like to see on it.

Thanks.
Albert

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Jim Watson
December 26, 2002, 12:50 PM
You can put any sort of sights and barrel on it you want. You can put any sort of sights and barrel on ANY rifle.
A new action design will take all your effort, that has to work before you can consider the cosmetics. Look at pictures of Mr Browning's prototypes that he showed to Colt and Winchester to see what I mean.

Cal4D4
December 26, 2002, 01:07 PM
I'm not sure if auto cad is up to snuff on solid modeling. This would be a good thing before you sink many 10s of thousands making your first one. Pro Eng used to be a popular package. Machine shop time is very pricey. If you are not a tool maker who can fit up a prototype, solid modeling can save you a fortune. Have you considered modifying a 20 Ga or .410 existing action?

waynzwld
December 26, 2002, 03:34 PM
Hey Twoblink! I think Rossi made a 357 pump. I do not remember what it was called. I also do not know if it is still in production. You might look around for one of those to use for a place to start.

Correia
December 26, 2002, 03:38 PM
Albert,

I've spoken with you about this rifle before, I don't know if you recall or not, but I still think that it would be one really cool weapon.

My opinions, speaking as somebody who is trying to build a prototype rifle. FIND A GOOD MACHINEIST! :D I'm lucky in that I've found a master machineist who is also a really good guy and hard core gun nut. They will help you immesurably with practical knowledge.

For me as I started going over my basic plans he offered so many good pointers that I came away with a design that would be cheaper to build, stronger, and lighter than my original drawings.

As for the design, the whole gun industry is based upon taking other people's proven ideas and changing them around. There really aren't a whole lot of John Brownings out there if you know what I mean.

If I were you I would take a good hard look at the BPS and the Ithica. It is my opinion that reworking the action of a .410 Ithica would get you 90% of what you need. (Has Ithica even built such a gun?)

I would also design your gun from the ground up to be as modular as possible. Use existing other parts every chance you get. Every spring, every pin, every nut and bolt. All of those things cost money. Try to use existing trigger parts if possible, as these can be a severe pain in the rear to design and machine from scratch. (unfortunatly for me the design of my gun forces me to have a really different kind of sear arrangement). Try to use existing stocks. Personally I would make sure your gun had the same hardware attachments as something like the Remington 870. There are millions of different stocks already out there that you can use. (plus it would be pretty groovy to be able to attach a Butler Creek folding stock on your carbine).

You may want to purchase a IMI Timberwolf if you get the chance. It is side ejecting, but it would give you a better look at the internal size of the various parts relative to the .357. Same goes for the Marlin. This gives you the chance to see what parts you can skeletonize off of other guns.

Good luck.

Penman
December 26, 2002, 04:02 PM
I would stay away from the polygonal rifling if it isn't friendly to lead bullets. You should also include an interrupted trigger, so the rifle won't fire if you rack the action with the trigger held back.

MrAcheson
December 26, 2002, 05:49 PM
Forget the polygonal rifling if your building the gun yourself, it isn't any more accurate than lands and groove and its way more expensive to tool. For the performance benefit on a small run of guns, its not worth the money.

You might want to try basing some of the gun off of Win 92s. For instance if you could adapt the tubular magazine and barrel from one that would be less to design. Or look at the AWA lightning at awaguns.com for ideas. They've been in a state of almost out for years.

Gordon
December 26, 2002, 07:06 PM
Of course you know about IMI Timberwolf, you can get whole guns less a few small pins in shotgun news for $125 new. iT WOULD BE A GOOD PLAY AROUND START.

Preacherman
December 26, 2002, 08:49 PM
How about basing the design on the old Colt Lightning pump rifle, dating back to the 1880's IIRC? I understand modern reproductions of them are to come on the market in 2003 from two different manufacturers, owing to the demand from Cowboy Action shooters. I don't know if these are bottom-ejection or not, but if you combined their proven design with that of the Ithaca 37 shotgun, and "married them up", the offspring might be interesting.

MrAcheson
December 26, 2002, 09:08 PM
Umm the major problem with the Lightning pump rifle is that the action isn't very strong. The AWA Colt Lightning clone is only chambered in .38sp for this reason.

twoblink
December 26, 2002, 10:17 PM
First, I have wanted a Timberwolf for a while.

Second, I'm hoping that the design (prelim design) can be done in autocad.

Third, yep, looking at something like a Browning BPS (which I own) in a .410 or so to see if I can modify.

I will probably take an exploded diagram from the browning or ithaca manuals and go from there. I have the original JMB patents in hand. :D

I am left handed and so I want BOTTOM EJECT. This is very important to me. (Otherwise, all I would be doing is finding someone to tool up a Timberwolf right?)

Penman, one of the things I LOVE is the fact that I can hold down the trigger and just keep racking to fire; so nope, that stays.

the BPS/Ithaca actions should hold up without problems; I think if they are shooting 12 and 10 gauges out of it, then a .357Mag or even a .44Mag should be that harsh in comparison.

I have to study the diagrams a bit, but I'm curious if a new barrel fitting, and magazine tube shims as well as a sitter shim on a BPS .410 will work..

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