Builiding Registered SBR from an AK "pistol"


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Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
January 25, 2010, 05:00 PM
If one were so inclined to register and build an SBR with BATFE on one of these AK 'pistols' on the market:

1. Do the existing AK components such as stocks/p-grips fit right onto the receiver as they would on any other AK?,

OR

2. No, they are like the Auto Ordance Thompson 'pistols', where they specifically make the rear of the receivers so that you cannot attach anything, SBR license or not,

OR

3. Depends on the AK pistol in question - if so, which are yes and which are no?

OR

4. Some other possibility I hadn't thought of?

Thanks.

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Sam1911
January 25, 2010, 05:05 PM
Generally, the rear trunion on pistol builds is a new-production piece designed to be a flat plate, or sometimes a flat plate with a sling attachment point.

They are careful to make the trunion not accept any kind of AK stock easily.

You'll need to remove the rear trunion and install either a standard AKM one or an AKS-74 style, or whatever will accept the stock you want to use.

Otherwise, yes, just about any other part should work.

-Sam

nalioth
January 25, 2010, 05:30 PM
I will use the Romanian made Draco / Champion pistols as an example:

1. Do the existing AK components such as stocks/p-grips fit right onto the receiver as they would on any other AK?, These pistols are closer to "a real AK" than any other AK currently imported. Their receivers are milspec (just not fully finished [i.e. the fun switch is missing]) right off the military production line.

All AK parts and accessories will fit (taking barrel length into consideration).

2. No, they are like the Auto Ordance Thompson 'pistols', where they specifically make the rear of the receivers so that you cannot attach anything, SBR license or not, Once you receive your approved form 1, you'd basically remove the rear rivets, weld up the rivet holes and install whatever rear block arrangement you desired (standard fixed stock AK rear tang, side folder rear block, or underfolder rear block).

The Draco / Champion pistols are the only ones I'd consider SBR'g, as the ones made from cut up Romy G kits have "guessworked gas systems" and also have had their chrome lining advantage removed (cutting the barrel slices through the chrome and this can lead to the chrome flaking away).

The Romanian pistols have been manufactured (in submachinegun form) for over a decade in Romania, and should provide a quality SBR here.

smince
January 25, 2010, 07:29 PM
A thread on making a Draco SBR:
http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?t=61984&highlight=draco

http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/2923/dsc02080d.jpg

nalioth
January 25, 2010, 07:43 PM
A thread on making a Draco SBR:
http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?t=61984&highlight=draco

Forum signup required to see that link.

Nice way to build up the numbers over there http://forum.novarata.net/images/smilies/basic/thumbsup2.gif


I did not advise the method used in that thread ( drilling and tapping the existing rear block ) because (to me) the rear block appears too thin to hold up to much use when a stock is attached like that. The rear block used is a virgin under folder block, and is not designed to have a stock attached to it at it's backside.

FWIW: The Romanians employ a standard fix stock tang in their shorties:
http://www.novarata.net/images/r-5452.jpg

. . and there are some fine examples of SBRs from here in the USA:
(not my pix - please note these have had standard stock tangs installed as I outlined in my earlier post (http://thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=6221284&postcount=3))
A Champion pistol-turned-SBR
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/tokarev/DSC00044_edited.jpg

A Draco pistol-turned-SBR
http://www.novarata.net/abrams/IMG_7537.JPG

I highly suspect that installing a fixed stock tang and cutting it for an Ace internal stock block (or not cutting it, and using an Ace external block) would make be more durable than drilling and tapping the existing factory rear block.

Shadow Man
January 25, 2010, 07:45 PM
A SBR AK-type with a folding stock would make a nice PDW-style weapon wouldn't it? Hmm...I'm sure I have $200 laying around here somewhere...:cool:

Ian
January 25, 2010, 07:56 PM
I'm working on building an SBR AK myself, and using a cut-down Romy kit to do it. I looked into using a Draco pistol, but those all have 12" barrels. I didn't want to go through all the work of making an SBR to only have a 4" reduction in barrel length. My cut down kit has a 9.5" barrel, which is much more in line with what I wanted (a very compact rifle for toting around in the boonies).

THE DARK KNIGHT
January 25, 2010, 08:52 PM
I know nothing about SBR and I live in NJ thus the only SBR I will ever get to play with here is on the X-Box. Heck I can't even own the Draco pistol here. But IMO why play with a cut up kit when you can just get a already made rifle for 2.5" more barrel.

Also out of curiosity, would it be possible for someone with an SBR stamp to drill two big holes in the back and put an underfolder on there?

Sam1911
January 25, 2010, 08:57 PM
would it be possible for someone with an SBR stamp to drill two big holes in the back and put an underfolder on there?

Nalioth answered already:

Once you receive your approved form 1, you'd basically remove the rear rivets, weld up the rivet holes and install whatever rear block arrangement you desired (standard fixed stock AK rear tang, side folder rear block, or underfolder rear block).

-Sam

nalioth
January 25, 2010, 08:58 PM
Also out of curiosity, would it be possible for someone with an SBR stamp to drill two big holes in the back and put an underfolder on there? Why wouldn't it be possible?

The only regulated part of an SBR is the barrel length. It can have any stock on it (or no stock at all).

The Draco and Champion pistols come with virgin under folder rear blocks, so installing an underfolder would be easy enough (provided you have all the hardware).

THE DARK KNIGHT
January 25, 2010, 08:59 PM
Yeah, I see he posted that, but what I meant was, could an underfolder be installed without changing the block? It looks to me from pics like the underfolder just is a big rod that goes through the receiver walls and attaches to that.

THE DARK KNIGHT
January 25, 2010, 09:00 PM
Why wouldn't it be possible?

The only regulated part of an SBR is the barrel length. It can have any stock on it (or no stock at all).

The Draco and Champion pistols come with virgin under folder rear blocks, so installing an underfolder would be easy enough (provided you have all the hardware).

OK, thank you. Yeah I was wondering about it being mechanically possible, I know it is legally possible.

Sam1911
January 25, 2010, 09:06 PM
Rear trunion doesn't look like an AKM trunion, but doesn't look to me like a pistol rear. But I'm not sure.

Look at this: http://pookieweb.dyndns.org:61129/Yugo/M70/rear/DSCN0608.JPG

The trunion does support the underfolder mechanism, so I can't imagine the bare receiver shell doing an adequate job.

-Sam

Sam1911
January 25, 2010, 09:08 PM
The Draco and Champion pistols come with virgin under folder rear blocks

Ahhh, so they just don't drill/punch the holes through the receiver shell for the underfolder parts? Cool. Makes sense -- why invent a blank-off type rear trunion from scratch if there's a common surplus part that will do the job without alarming the ATF?

-Sam

THE DARK KNIGHT
January 25, 2010, 09:10 PM
Yeah see, I had a feeling that was the case from looking at pictures. Draco SBR underfolder is my dream gun lol.

Sam1911
January 25, 2010, 09:12 PM
Yup, pretty cool. Though I have to say I'm QUITE fond of the AKS-74U that my build-buddy did off a complete, perfect (apparently unfired) kit. Just gorgeous!

And, yes, he has a 45-rd RPK mag for it so it can be "taller" than it is long! LOL!

-Sam

nalioth
January 25, 2010, 09:13 PM
The Draco and Champion pistols come with virgin under folder rear blocks
Ahhh, so they just don't drill/punch the holes through the receiver shell for the underfolder parts? They don't drill the rear block, either. Which means that it will be able to be used with any countries under folder types (the different countries have different arrangements of their mechanisms).

Sam1911
January 25, 2010, 09:15 PM
They don't drill the rear block, eitherOOOhhh. So they have "virgin" rear blocks/trunions, not surplus/tear-down parts. I guess it's good to be the original manufacturer! LOL!

Cool, and thanks for the info!

-Sam

THE DARK KNIGHT
January 25, 2010, 09:18 PM
Yup, pretty cool. Though I have to say I'm QUITE fond of the AKS-74U that my build-buddy did off a complete, perfect (apparently unfired) kit. Just gorgeous!

Oh hell yeah a regular AKS-74U would be the best if I could find one cheap and escape to PA one day. But all the ones I see are a lot of cash :( Meanwhile draco is like $350 for gun - $200 tax - $250 on stock kit / mags / usa trigger group if the foreign one sucks / nice wood handguards

Sam1911
January 25, 2010, 09:23 PM
Oh hell yeah a regular AKS-74U would be the best if I could find one cheap and escape to PA one day.

Oh it's worth it, especially if you've just GOT to have about one of every Kalashnikov variant made! (As he does ... I can see the benefits to the bachelor life, sometimes!) LOL! Imagine my glee that he lusts after my "plain jane" AKS-74 we/I built in his shop.

Escape to PA? Did that. It's nice! :D

-Sam

THE DARK KNIGHT
January 25, 2010, 09:24 PM
Yeah they are sweet.....

nalioth
January 25, 2010, 09:25 PM
Well, I was gonna add to the other post, but you guys are too quick :)

This shows the factory Draco/Champion rear block. It is a virgin under folder block.
http://www.novarata.net/images/d/draco-rear-block.png

This is why I don't think the SBRs made by drilling and tapping the existing block are gonna be durable, as the area used on the block isn't made to support anything, but to keep the dirt and crap out of the insides of the gun.

Sam1911
January 25, 2010, 09:28 PM
Oh sure! All the strength is in the "ears" which carry the underfolder hinge barrel. Looks like maybe 1/8" of cast steel in the back plate. Not near the strength of the tang and stock tenon set-up of the AKM or the massive hinge and lock of the AKS version.

Very cool. And thanks again!

-Sam

THE DARK KNIGHT
January 25, 2010, 09:36 PM
So, drilling the stock block would probably not make for a good end result? May as well just change the trunion?

Sam1911
January 25, 2010, 09:40 PM
It depends on what you mean. If you mean drilling it side-to-side to make the proper sized hole in each of the "ears" and the receiver shell on each side -- to support a surplus set of under-folder parts, that'd be just perfect.

Nailoth is arguing against drilling and tapping the back of the rear block/trunion and screwing a stock attachment point to that. Look closely at smince's pic in Post 4.

I think he is, anyway. ;)

EDIT: Also, compare Nailoth's pic of the Draco rear block to the one I posted of the assembled underfolder hinge. It's not just the big hole that they drilled. There are also four extra rivets (two per side) at the front edge of the trunion "ears." Not needed for the pistol where the trunion doesn't really do much but close off the rear of the receiver, but necessary when you're going to use the trunion to support a stock assembly.

And, there actually appears to be a 5th rivet -- or actually a bolt of some kind -- drilled through the very upper edge of the trunion, just where the recoil spring guide block slides in. You can see the pin is visible where the hole is cut out through the top of that slot. And the larger rear rivet is located farther back than on the Draco trunion.

-Sam

THE DARK KNIGHT
January 25, 2010, 09:51 PM
Oh ok, I was confused yeah. I meant I was referring to "drilling it side-to-side to make the proper sized hole in each of the "ears" and the receiver shell on each side -- to support a surplus set of under-folder parts, that'd be just perfect." cause it looks from pictures possible to simply do that. Maybe even drill an extra hole in the front of the rear trunion on each side for a rivet for extra support just for the hell of it.

nalioth
January 25, 2010, 09:57 PM
So, drilling the stock block would probably not make for a good end result? May as well just change the trunion? Depends on what you want. For an underfolder, it's perfect (it's got an underfolder rear block that hasn't been drilled for installation yet).
For a side folder such as an Ace type, I'd recommend installing a fixed stock tang.

Nailoth is arguing against drilling and tapping the back of the rear block/trunion and screwing a stock attachment point to that. Look closely at smince's pic in Post 4.

I think he is, anyway. ;)Exactly.

And, there actually appears to be a 5th rivet -- or actually a bolt of some kind -- drilled through the very upper edge of the trunion, just where the recoil spring guide block slides in. You can see the pin is visible where the hole is cut out through the top of that slot. That is a Yugo M70AB2 rear block. That isn't a rivet, but a spring loaded retention bar to keep the bolt carrier from flying out and doing damage when grenades are fired.

Sam1911
January 25, 2010, 09:59 PM
to keep the bolt carrier from flying out and doing damage when grenades are fired.

Oh. Yeah. I hate it when that happens!

(Where is that smiley with no teeth?) LOL!

-Sam

THE DARK KNIGHT
January 25, 2010, 10:12 PM
(Where is that smiley with no teeth?) LOL!

LOL

And yeah Nalioth I meant for underfolder, good to know it can just be drilled and installed. Dunno why but I just love the underfolder.

kno3mike
January 26, 2010, 01:44 AM
Excellent thread....Great info....Quick question....I have a Draco....Is it legal and "would it work" to drill and tap the back plate for a sling swivel post?...I'm not a builder but could have a local gunsmith install the sling attachment....thanks

nalioth
January 26, 2010, 02:03 AM
I have a Draco....Is it legal and "would it work" to drill and tap the back plate for a sling swivel post? That's how lots of folks do it.

Maverick223
January 26, 2010, 02:03 AM
I have to admit those shorty AKs look pretty darn good.

Where is that smiley with no teeth?Ask and ye shall receive: http://forums.nitroexpress.com/images/graemlins/smilies/general/toothless.gif

Shadow Man
January 26, 2010, 08:57 AM
I have to admit those shorty AKs look pretty darn good.

I know, right? I can feel my wallet growing lighter already...

smince
January 26, 2010, 09:13 AM
FWIW, Rifle Dynamics and Red Stick (both AK builders) post regularly on the link I gave. Neither has posted any concerns about the back of the Draco not being strong enough for the folder.

Sam1911
January 26, 2010, 09:18 AM
Neither has posted any concerns about the back of the Draco not being strong enough for the folder.


Well, to be fair to them, it is a lot easier to do it that way. And if they go the extra mile and bolt it through with a nut on the inside, it could be better than a simple drill and tap job.

Not what I would want, personally, but it probably does help them keep costs down.

-Sam

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
January 26, 2010, 11:28 AM
Good info nalioth & everyone - thanks very very much.

smince
January 26, 2010, 12:25 PM
Well, to be fair to them, it is a lot easier to do it that way. And if they go the extra mile and bolt it through with a nut on the inside, it could be better than a simple drill and tap job.

Not what I would want, personally, but it probably does help them keep costs down.I don't know that either builder does it that way. It's my understanding that LMarshall73 did the comversion himself.

I was just stating that none of the builders came online and told him he was wrong to do it that way.

Maverick223
January 26, 2010, 01:40 PM
Well, to be fair to them, it is a lot easier to do it that way. And if they go the extra mile and bolt it through with a nut on the inside, it could be better than a simple drill and tap job. If I did that I would want to at least weld the nuts in place; but personally what I would do (if I did the conversion) is cut a ≈ in. piece of flat stock to fit behind the rear of the receiver, weld it on, drill & tap and you're good to go.

:)

Sam1911
January 26, 2010, 02:14 PM
Is that simpler than replacing the rear trunion? I suppose if you count welding up the disused rivet holes, maybe it is. Of course, you'll end up having to try to weld the 1/4" steel piece, the rear trunion (cast?), and the sheet metal receiver at the same time, so you might want to take a couple of test tries at it.

-Sam

Maverick223
January 26, 2010, 08:11 PM
I'd have to look at mine to get a better understanding, but why couldn't you just grind off the back of the rear trunnion, then weld directly to the steel receiver? I imagine that the trunnion is cast steel (rather than iron), but it looks to be inferior quality to me, and still may be difficult to weld. I know that must be a big shocker...poor quality components on an AK? :what:

Sam1911
January 26, 2010, 08:27 PM
You might be able to do so. I had a buddy a long time ago who did a Tantal build "rivetless" -- by grinding a groove at each edge of the trunions and tig welding them to the receiver shell. I never got to see or shoot that gun, just heard about it. But I'd heard of it before, so he wasn't the only one crazy enough to try it.

-Sam

Lloyd Smale
January 27, 2010, 08:36 AM
i was under the understanding that i was illegal to put a but stock on any gun that is registered as a handgun. I would think you would have to start out with a rifle reciever to do a short barreled rifle.

Sam1911
January 27, 2010, 08:44 AM
i was under the understanding that i was illegal to put a but stock on any gun that is registered as a handgun. I would think you would have to start out with a rifle reciever to do a short barreled rifle.

Nope. A Title I handgun may be made into a legal Title I rifle by the addition of a barrel of 16"+ and a butt stock. Of course, if you want to add just the buttstock and keep a shorter barrel, you'll have to register the weapon as a Title II Short Barreled Rifle.

Where the risky business starts is that the ATF reads that section of the National Firearms Act (1934) to say it shall be illegal to make a firearm of less than 26" overall length from a rifle.

SO, if you make a rifle out of your pistol (even once), it is illegal to then convert it back into handgun form, even using all the original parts, without registering it as an SBR. The ATF is saying, a rifle (even one that was once a pistol) cannot ever be anything but a Title I rifle, or a Title II SBR.

This is where the Mech-Tech carbines, and sometimes the Thompson Contenders, can get into trouble.

Pistol -to- rifle is fine. But it's a one-way trip. Rifle -to- pistol is NOT ok.

-Sam

nalioth
January 27, 2010, 03:57 PM
I'd have to look at mine to get a better understanding, but why couldn't you just grind off the back of the rear trunnion, then weld directly to the steel receiver? I imagine that the trunnion is cast steel (rather than iron), but it looks to be inferior quality to me, and still may be difficult to weld. I know that must be a big shocker...poor quality components on an AK?Tromix makes back plates with the Ace pattern attachment holes already present. They are designed to be welded on the end of the receiver (with the tang cut), and make for a stronger receiver afterwards.

Sam1911
January 27, 2010, 04:31 PM
Why am I not surprised Tony has some cool trick for doing this? So, now I have to modify my NEEDS list to an ACE-stocked Draco SBR in .458 SOCOM. :D

-Sam

Maverick223
January 27, 2010, 10:42 PM
Tromix makes back plates with the Ace pattern attachment holes already present. They are designed to be welded on the end of the receiver (with the tang cut), and make for a stronger receiver afterwards....or just buy one of those.

:)

Blackhawk30
August 15, 2010, 01:14 PM
A Choate thumbhole should fit but it will have only the grip screw holding it on.

M2
November 2, 2010, 10:23 AM
I just picked up a Draco yesterday, and ultimately I would like to turn it into something like this Photoshop'd SBR...

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c209/M2Repsol/Guns/DracoUnderfolderSBR.jpg

Cheers! M2

cleardiddion
November 2, 2010, 01:15 PM
This thread is giving me way to many ideas.
Much thanks!

M2
November 3, 2010, 10:48 PM
And I would advise those with (or wanting to get) a Draco to check the rear trunnion, as the CAI one I picked up on Monday is for an underfolder (it has the holes on the inside, and apparently would only need the outside of the receiver drilled once the appropriate SBR paperwork is obtained)...

Not sure if they all come like that, but I was happy to see it! :D

Cheers! M2

nalioth
November 3, 2010, 11:14 PM
And I would advise those with (or wanting to get) a Draco to check the rear trunnion, as the CAI one I picked up on Monday is for an underfolder (it has the holes on the inside, and apparently would only need the outside of the receiver drilled once the appropriate SBR paperwork is obtained)...

Post #22 (http://thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=6221999&postcount=22) indicates that they come both ways.

WardenWolf
November 4, 2010, 04:58 AM
You can also just have a stock adapter attached directly to it and have a Tromix or other stock installed on it. I'd personally prefer to have the rear receiver plate removed and a standard rear trunion installed. Then I can do whatever I want.

Ian
November 4, 2010, 10:15 AM
IMO, the downside to using a Draco is that the barrel is still 12" long. Add on a flash hider or brake, and that's really not much shorter at all than a standard AK. I wanted something more like a Krink, in the 8" to 10" range. So I took a standard parts kit and sent it to Pat McHenry (http://home.comcast.net/~restoreit1/Pistol_Conv.htm) to be cut down to 9.5 inches.

I don't really like the Romanian/Polish/German folding stocks - they're just not very comfortable to me. Same with the Hungarian ones. The Russian triangular side-folders are much better, but a bit expensive and more complex to install, what with the front latch. The best stock I could find was the Chinese Type 56-1. It has a solid lockup, installs with two basic rivets, and has a couple side plates for a nice cheek weld. Those stocks with AK trunnions are rare and expensive, but I found a cheap ($50) airgun (http://www.bghi.us/index.php?x=b3) that comes with a perfect copy of the stock, right down to the indent for the AK safety lever. The airgun trunnion doesn't quite fit an AK receiver, so I took my Romanian rear trunnion, milled off the tang, and welded it to the airgun trunnion and hinge block.

The result? A shorty AK that's actually pretty short and still has a good folding stock. The only thing left is to find a Larue Irondot for it to make up for the really short sight radius.

My cost for the whole thing was $125 for the kit, $150 to have it cut down, $85 for the Nodak receiver, $30 for a Tapco semi FCG, $200 tax stamp, and $50 for the donor airgun. Total cost $440 plus tax stamp.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=130117&stc=1&d=1288876402

M2
November 4, 2010, 05:44 PM
Here are some pics of what I was talking about, the underfold trunnion of the Draco I just bought...

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c209/M2Repsol/Guns/DracoTrunnion3.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c209/M2Repsol/Guns/DracoTrunnion2.jpg

Cheers! M2

mtt849
November 10, 2010, 07:58 PM
The draco was a good option for me,if you have some ability,then you can
sbr a draco for 700 including stamp:) mine was alittle more with afew add
on's.

mtt849
November 10, 2010, 09:20 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MW4oZU1851Y

LHRGunslinger
April 1, 2011, 03:37 AM
mtt849 what kind of stock did you use?

camoman33935
May 7, 2011, 10:42 PM
Sorry to bring up an old post but I have a quick question.

I know nalioth and others advise against drilling and tapping the rear of the reciever but there are numerous accounts of people having difficulties drilling through the rear of the reciever because the steel is so strong. Taking this into account, how well do you think mounting an ACE stock (no sidefolder mechanism) directly to the rear of the reciever would hold up? I know that it's only about 1/8 inch thick but if the steel is as strong as some others have stated would it really be that huge of a problem to mount a stock this way?

nalioth
May 7, 2011, 11:53 PM
I am still of the opinion that mounting a stock directly to the back plate will lead to a failure.

If you're gonna use the back plate to mount a stock, you should find a steel shim to use on the inside (that the stock mount screws to) for extra strength.

Sam Cade
May 8, 2011, 12:03 AM
If you're gonna use the back plate to mount a stock, you should find a steel shim to use on the inside (that the stock mount screws to) for extra strength.

Saw one today that had been TIG welded all around the edge of the plate. Looked pretty decent, When I get around to doing mine I think its the way I will go.

camoman33935
May 8, 2011, 01:54 AM
I am still of the opinion that mounting a stock directly to the back plate will lead to a failure.

If you're gonna use the back plate to mount a stock, you should find a steel shim to use on the inside (that the stock mount screws to) for extra strength.


So you're saying that I should put an extra chunk of steel in the rear of the reciever, drill and tap the reciever & the shim, and then I should be able to bolt a stock up to the rear of the reciever safely?

What about tapping the rear of the reciever and using lock nuts on the bolts on the inside of the reciever?

Also, if you don't mind me asking, what kind of failure are you referring to when you say that it could lead to one? I'm not questioning your knowledge of AK pattern firearms just looking for a little enlightenment.

nalioth
May 8, 2011, 02:19 AM
Also, if you don't mind me asking, what kind of failure are you referring to when you say that it could lead to one? I'm not questioning your knowledge of AK pattern firearms just looking for a little enlightenment.I believe the back plate on an underfolder rear block is too thin to support the stresses of a fixed butt stock.

Some possibilities:
The screws can pull out.
The plate can bend.
The plate can crack.

Using a shim, and longer bolts should alleviate any of these issues, imho.

Bolts and lock nuts would still be attached to a thin and not-designed-for-load-bearing piece of steel.

Swami
May 8, 2011, 02:32 AM
It seems like several people are interested in a shorter-barrelled Draco - check out this from J&G Sales: (They also have 5.56x45 dracos)
http://www.jgsales.com/product_info.php/p/romanian-ak-draco-pistol-5-56x45-caliber-handgun-/products_id/5868
http://www.jgsales.com/product_info.php/p/romanian-ak-draco-pistol-5-56x45-caliber-handgun-/products_id/5867

nalioth
May 8, 2011, 02:54 AM
It seems like several people are interested in a shorter-barrelled Draco - check out this from J&G Sales: (They also have 5.56x45 dracos)Those shorties are Century mixmasters, from the description.

The "5.56 dracos" are what were formerly imported as "Champion" pistols.

Guess Century is gonna start calling any AK pistol a "Draco". . .

camoman33935
May 8, 2011, 05:48 PM
I believe the back plate on an underfolder rear block is too thin to support the stresses of a fixed butt stock.

Some possibilities:
The screws can pull out.
The plate can bend.
The plate can crack.

Using a shim, and longer bolts should alleviate any of these issues, imho.

Bolts and lock nuts would still be attached to a thin and not-designed-for-load-bearing piece of steel.

Oh ok I get what you're saying.

I noticed that you said the rear plate on an "underfolder rear block" was too thin. Are all Draco pistols imported with the underfolder block or just certain Draco models? If I was to get one with non-underfolder rear trunion would that alievate the issues that the underfolder trunion has or would they still exist?

Also, wouldn't the possibility of the bolts backing out be remedied by using some red Loctite on the bolts?

Thanks for your help Nalioth

nalioth
May 8, 2011, 05:52 PM
Are all Draco pistols imported with the underfolder block or just the Draco C models?All of them. Some of the blocks are "virgin", in that they've never been finished and had a stock mounted.
The ones with the holes in them are recycled from the 'finished' pile or from retired military guns.

You won't find one with a different rear block unless you install a different rear block yourself.

Have you read this thread?

camoman33935
May 8, 2011, 06:04 PM
Yes sir, I have but I can't retain all that I read for some reason lol.

Thank you for the info I really appreciate it.

alemonkey
May 8, 2011, 10:16 PM
Those shorties are Century mixmasters, from the description.

I've heard conflicting reports. J&G says they're assembled by Century, but other sources say they're all Romanian. Regardless, if they prove reliable I really want one. I'm seriously looking at making this my next SBR.

A guy on Arfcom added a Tapco AK74 brake and it looked really nice - scroll down almost to the bottom:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=4&f=98&t=136059&page=1

http://www.westcoastarmory.com/images/swfuploads/gallery/d52c0134729cf2e7362b39f8ece98105-1303956453.jpg

wally
May 9, 2011, 12:11 AM
Oh sure! All the strength is in the "ears" which carry the underfolder hinge barrel. Looks like maybe 1/8" of cast steel in the back plate. Not near the strength of the tang and stock tenon set-up of the AKM or the massive hinge and lock of the AKS version.

I know this is an old thread, but I'm about finished building a Draco-C into an SBR. They seem to build them with what parts they have -- mine was not a virgin underfolder block it is drilled for the underfolder but the receiver is not.

OTOH having just drilled and tapped mine to install a VZ52 side-folder, the rear block on mine is more like 3/8" thick than 1/8" and was a bear to tap. I don't see how it couldn't be strong enough. Mine looks like the one in M2's photo.

nalioth
May 9, 2011, 12:16 AM
OTOH having just drilled and tapped mine to install a VZ52 side-folder, the rear block on mine is more like 3/8" thick than 1/8" and was a bear to tap. I don't see how it couldn't be strong enough.It's only thick at the top, where the recoil spring guide fits.
Below that, it's quite thin, and this is where most folks drill and tap for their ACE installations.

wally
May 9, 2011, 01:44 PM
It's only thick at the top, where the recoil spring guide fits.

Mine is much thicker where the recoil spring guide fits than where I drilled. My hole location was pretty much set by the design of the VZ-58 side-folder, but I did manage to get it enough below the recoil guide tang so I could fit a jam nut in there, and I drilled and tapped at least 3/8" of metal. It was deep enough I have to get a longer bolt to have enough threads for the jam nut -- I bought what I have expecting as you've said about 1/8" of metal, finding 3/8" instead was nice, despite forcing an extra trip to the hardware store to finish the job.

MasterSergeantA
June 15, 2011, 07:16 PM
The November 2010 issue of Small Arms Review had a detailed discussion of the Draco SBR conversion. If someone smarter than I (and that would be most anyone) has or can get a copy and scan a .pdf of it, it would help a number of people on this forum that have started similar threads.

Sam1911
June 15, 2011, 09:14 PM
If someone smarter than I (and that would be most anyone) has or can get a copy and scan a .pdf of it, it would help a number of people on this forum that have started similar threads

Actually, we ask that no one scan and post copyrighted material here. The vultures at Righthaven are taking a licking in court, but the issue is far from dead, and reposting an entire article is stretching "fair use" beyond all reason. Thanks for the suggestion that folks look that article up, but please follow our copyright rules (http://www.thehighroad.org/announcement.php?a=20):
5. You agree to respect the copyright of others. If you don't own the rights to something, you agree not to post it. Instead, link to it and provide a brief summary of the contents. This helps keep us all out of trouble.


Thanks!

MasterSergeantA
June 16, 2011, 12:03 PM
Sorry, Sam. I didn't mean to infer that the article should be posted. If I had a copy that I could e-mail to folks asking the question, I would do that. I'm not a lawyer, but I don't think that stretches 'fair use' too far. Obviously, posting a copyrighted piece would be a bad thing.

Yeager
June 17, 2011, 07:47 AM
There are also four extra rivets (two per side) at the front edge of the trunion "ears." Not needed for the pistol where the trunion doesn't really do much but close off the rear of the receiver, but necessary when you're going to use the trunion to support a stock assembly.

For what it's worth, I've never seen a Romanian underfolder utilize those extra holes at the front of the block.

I've got Three WASR-10 UFs and an MD63 parts kit. None of them have rivets up front, two of them came with milled chinese style underfolding stocks, and the other two came with a cruder half milled half stamped stock with arms about as thick as the wire side folders.

My Hungarian Pre-89 underfolder does utilize those parts, as well as my Yugo, but they both use a stamped steel stock that locks at a different angle.

The pin you refer to is the top cover locking pin found only on Yugoslavian guns.

twisterx44
July 26, 2011, 10:01 PM
Draco SBRs are sweet.

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