AK legal full auto conversion


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andyffer
February 5, 2010, 11:00 PM
What do you guys think.. My gun club has a Class II manufacturing license and they sell some of their own machine guns (they obviously have a class III dealership).
Would it be better to get it done on a milled vs. stamped?
Any ballparks on price? Besides the $200 for the class III license
I'd probably purchase another AK if I did go with this and then keep my Lancaster stock as it is my first AK.

Thoughts? Am I an idiot?

Scottsdale Gun Club..
http://www.scottsdalegunclub.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=21&Itemid=37

a couple of Class III items the Gun Club has produced..
http://sgcusa.com/Class-III-Transferable-Class-III/c205_237/p3716/Bushmaster-9mm-AR15-SBR-w/suppressor/product_info.html
http://sgcusa.com/Class-III-Transferable-Class-III/c205_237/p3852/Glock-17-with-Full-Auto-Conversion-Device/product_info.html

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Dave Markowitz
February 5, 2010, 11:08 PM
No new full autos may be produced in the US for civilian, non-LEO possession, except for dealer samples, since May 1986. This is why the price on full autos has continued to climb -- increased demand, finite supply.

andyffer
February 5, 2010, 11:12 PM
ah. So I need to become a cop in addition to anesthesiologist in my future. Great..

ants
February 5, 2010, 11:23 PM
LEO doesn't mean any cop can get one.
It means law enforcement agency.

Zundfolge
February 5, 2010, 11:26 PM
Really the only way to get your paws on new machine guns is to become a licensed machine gun dealer and/or manufacturer.

andyffer
February 5, 2010, 11:49 PM
so if I bought the license to be a class iii dealer I could buy brand new machine guns manufactured post '86

Gungnir
February 6, 2010, 01:11 AM
so if I bought the license to be a class iii dealer I could buy brand new machine guns manufactured post '86
No you're business could own and trade any full auto manufactured and registered prior to May 19th 1986. Anything post that date cannot be registered and is therefore illegal.

Since manufacturing full auto is prohibited except as previously described additional full auto firearms cannot legally enter the consumer market.

andyffer
February 6, 2010, 01:19 AM
^ thats what I thought. Post #5 got me confused

Gungnir
February 6, 2010, 01:28 AM
Well what's being said is actually true, if you get a SOT2 and a manufacturing FFL you can "manufacture" an NFA firearm i.e if you have an AR15 and a unregistered drop in parts kit, your business will need to register and own it [actually I wasn't 100% correct in you can't register, you can, but it cannot be transferred to a civilian including another FFL.] but you can't sell it to anyone but LEO, Military etc.

However if you have a registered drop in parts kit (auto sear, BCG, Selector) that you'd need to transfer like all other NFA weapons; that IS the machine gun, even though it has no lower, upper or barrel. You can then install that into a regular AR and you have a fully functioning and registered machine gun.

It's not really confusing, if you're not sure the answer is NO! Because that can result in 10 years of your life and $10k.

MrCleanOK
February 6, 2010, 08:47 AM
Pretty much what people are suggesting is that you can can get the proper licensing to deal in civilian-legal pre-'86 machine guns, or get the proper licensing to manufacture and deal in LEO/Military-only post-'86 machine guns. Either way would require you to establish a legitimate business, and the business itself would own the dealer sample machine guns. Not exactly the magical machine gun loophole.

andyffer
February 6, 2010, 09:34 AM
no but it answered my questions that float around in my head perfectly. Hopefully i'll be able to afford to get all the proper licensing and such and do this in the future.

Trebor
February 6, 2010, 11:03 AM
Just be aware that you are NOT supposed to have either a FFL MG Dealer's License or a FFL MG Manufacturer's License just to enhance your personal collection.

These are for people engaged in the business of either dealing in, or manufacturing, MG's. It's not just a blank check license to own any MG.

I'm not saying you can't do it: I'm just saying look into it more closely and make sure you have the time and resources to devote to actually running a business as a MG Dealer or MG Manufacturer. If the ATF believes, and can support, that you got the license just to enhance your personal collection, bad things can happen to you.

DMK
February 6, 2010, 11:40 AM
That's interesting. The gun club in question obviously manufactures machine guns for sale. Let's assume they do this properly and legally (no reason to think otherwise).

However, they also rent machine guns for their range. How does that work? Can a licensed manufacturer make a new machine gun then rent it out (maybe a sales sample), or would rentals all have to be pre-'86 models?

MachIVshooter
February 6, 2010, 12:22 PM
so if I bought the license to be a class iii dealer I could buy brand new machine guns manufactured post '86

Not exactly. For starters, to be an SOT, you have to be actively engaged in business. It's not like a C&R license, which is for personal collecting. Secondly, you cannot just order up any old MG as an SOT. You get what are called "dealer samples" which require LEA department letterhead to acquire. Lastly, if you ever relinquish your SOT, you have to sell to LEA or return to manufacturer all your MG's.

Basically, there's no easy or cheap way to have MG's at your disposal as a private citizen, and for the overwhelming majority of us, it's simply not worth the expense and hassle. Attend the sanctioned MG shoots, get your satisfaction from rentals, and enjoy your title I stuff the rest of the time.

Trebor
February 6, 2010, 04:48 PM
However, they also rent machine guns for their range. How does that work? Can a licensed manufacturer make a new machine gun then rent it out (maybe a sales sample), or would rentals all have to be pre-'86 models?

That is actually a very good question.

I know of MG dealers who rent out Post May '86 Dealer Samples. They seem to think it's fine and believe that the ATF doesn't have a problem with this practice

I also know other MG Dealers or MG manufacturers who say that if you do a strict reading of the law, it's actually not legal to rent out post-86 MG's to anyone but a LEO who is looking at purchasing such a weapon for his agency. They say that just because the ATF hasn't gone after anyone for this yet, doesn't mean they might not in the future.

Who has the real info? I can't say. I know that some dealers or manufacturers rent out post May '86 guns, and I know that some other dealers say that's a bad idea legally. That's all I know.

Remember though, when dealing with the ATF, better safe then sorry.

mljdeckard
February 6, 2010, 04:53 PM
I think that they can rent them out as long as it is in a facility under their direct control. They can't rent it out to let you BORROW it for the day without letterhead.

TexasRifleman
February 15, 2010, 11:19 AM
The gun club in question obviously manufactures machine guns for sale.

Who the heck are they selling them to? Local LE?

Dimis
February 15, 2010, 10:23 PM
Renting a Post 86 NFA item is not illegal as far as the law goes
again if the firearm is under the direct supervision of the holder (company employee) in an environment suitable for its use there is nothing illegal happening

as for if the ATF liking it i couldnt answer that but untill the laws are changed to state sales AND USE of post 86 weapons is prohibited theres nothing they can do

laws are not retro active so anyone who had done this IF the law were changed are non prosecutable and the rule is simple

"Nullum crimen sine lege Nulla poena sine crimen"

No crime without law no punishment without crime

and our good friend the Constitution backs this up in Artical 1 Section 9 explaining an "ex pasto law"

TexasRifleman
February 15, 2010, 10:28 PM
again if the firearm is under the direct supervision of the holder (company employee) in an environment suitable for its use there is nothing illegal happening

Depends on why they have the post 86 gun, and how they got it. Those are supposed to be purchased for samples, and usually require a letter from an LE agency stating that they want a dealer to get them a demo model for a test drive.

If ATF wanted to make an issue of it they could get nit picky with a dealer about those demo samples.

Don't underestimate their ability to cause trouble....unfortunately they are very good at it.

Bubbles
February 18, 2010, 10:45 AM
Renting a Post 86 NFA item is not illegal as far as the law goes
again if the firearm is under the direct supervision of the holder (company employee) in an environment suitable for its use there is nothing illegal happening

Correct. We do it and it's perfectly legal as long as we retain control over the firearm. You can also bet that most of the machine guns for rent on the line at KCR are posties and not transferrables.

jimmyraythomason
February 18, 2010, 11:10 AM
bad things can happen to you. It isn't worth it to me just to be able to waste ammo.

DoubleTapDrew
February 25, 2010, 05:47 PM
It isn't worth it to me just to be able to waste ammo.
Probably what they are counting on. Since they can't flat out ban them, they can just regulate them like crazy and make it too much hassle for most people to bother.

Mossberg88
February 26, 2010, 04:51 PM
become a bounty hunter :D

LiquidTension
February 26, 2010, 05:10 PM
^ Huh?

medalguy
February 26, 2010, 05:53 PM
So you can run around with a tin badge and a can of pepper spray.:neener:

Jim K
March 1, 2010, 01:29 PM
The owner of a registered NFA firearm can allow another person to fire it as long as the owner (or if the owner is a corporation, a representative of the corporation) is present. That applies whether the firearm is loaned (to a friend) or rented. The point is that there is no transfer of ownership. If the person borrowing or renting the gun removes it from the purview of the owner (e.g., takes it home), that would be considered a transfer of control, amounting to an illegal transfer of ownership.

Jim

aggiez28
March 3, 2010, 05:31 PM
there is lots of incorrect info in this thread. I was going to correct some of it but I noticed a lot more and I dont feel like nitpicking out all teh bad info in all the posts.


Just be aware that you are NOT supposed to have either a FFL MG Dealer's License or a FFL MG Manufacturer's License just to enhance your personal collection.

These are for people engaged in the business of either dealing in, or manufacturing, MG's. It's not just a blank check license to own any MG.

I'm not saying you can't do it: I'm just saying look into it more closely and make sure you have the time and resources to devote to actually running a business as a MG Dealer or MG Manufacturer. If the ATF believes, and can support, that you got the license just to enhance your personal collection, bad things can happen to you.

an 01 or 07 FFL w/SOT is about the only way you are going to get "cheap" new (post 86) MGs. You have to be in the firearms business to get either. That does not mean you have to start a big gunshop or anything. you could just sell a few things here and there. the biggest hold up will be zoning or yourt HOA if you plan to do this from your house. The rest is not hard really. Insurance can be expensive if you want it.

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