My Krazy Cowboy Carbine idea


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Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
April 23, 2010, 06:08 PM
It's been rollin around in the noggin awhile, taking shape, but I think I'm really gonna do this one within a year or so, instead of just talk about it:

Rifle/Action: Colt Lightning replica (Uberti, Cimmarron, Beretta, etc)

Action type: Pump/Slide, repeater

Chambering: .45 Colt

Barrel: Licensed SBR'ed and gunsmith-shortened to 12" (along with shortening the mag tube to same length), threaded

Suppresser: Yes, .45 Cal

Stock: Original straight grip buttstock will be replaced with a self-fabricated walnut stock which has both buttstock and separate pistol grip fabricated as a one-piece unit (from a single block of wood).

Sights: Trijicon RMR, fiber optic version (of course; what else would a cowboy use?)

Dude! :)

Top questions are gonna include:

1. Which gunsmith to use to shorten both barrel and mag tube and re-weld them together? (someone comfortable with SBR process)
2. Which base rifle to use (leaning toward Cimmaron)?
3. 10" or 12" barrel?
4. Which .45 Cal suppressor?

Please chime in if you can answer any of these.

This will be the ultimate low-light-of-sight, semi-PC, lightweight, uber-handy, super-ergo, quick-cycling, cheap-to-reload (cast bullets and durable brass), close range, home defense, hunting, silent, tactical, critter-killin, big-bore thumpin, fun range carbine ever made! :D

Probably shoot mostly subsonics (around 1050 fps) with 250-300 grainers. This rifle ain't something you'd see every day at the range. :p

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shibby
April 23, 2010, 06:23 PM
are you going to paint this rifle all white?

MachIVshooter
April 23, 2010, 06:47 PM
I dunno about your questions, but the image conjured in my head of the weapon itself is some hideous lovechild of an AK and a pump shotgun.

I can see doing the SBR bit with it, but the rest.........:scrutiny: That'd be like laser grips and a rail on a S&W Schofield. Some guns just aren't meant to be tacticool-ized, IMO. Those that helped tame the American West are definitely in that group.

black_powder_Rob
April 23, 2010, 06:50 PM
i would go with the 12" barrel over the 10". THe 2" will give more ammo capacity. This sounds interesting can't wiat to see the pics.:)

ATCDoktor
April 23, 2010, 07:26 PM
Register one of these as an SBR , put a stock on it and your 2/3 there.


http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=166052215


Shortening the mag tube and threading the barrel would be all that's left to do.

This is something I've been thinking about as well.

I have been eyeballing the Mare's leg lever guns for this type of project but the slide action from AWA looks interesting as well.

I may do both.

For a gunsmith I would use Mike Stannard at Tornado technologies.

He's shortened and threaded lever guns and the mag tubes for people in the past and is very good.

Tommygunn
April 23, 2010, 07:37 PM
Cut off the barrel? ------------------> WHY?
Suppress it?-------------------------> WHY?
Paint it white?------------------> Ewwwwwww!

The Colt Lightning is called "the rifle that should have won the west." I have a Taurus repro of the gun. They're nice guns. Why are you planning on doing this? Are you making props for a FIREFLY comeback?
I guess if you want to .... I can't see why.

Badlander
April 23, 2010, 07:49 PM
Go for it!! Can't wait to see the results.

PotatoJudge
April 23, 2010, 09:13 PM
Might be cool in 45 acp. Subsonic, dirt cheap brass, you can still load heavy bullets, and your mag capacity goes up significantly. Would take some re-engineering to make it feed, which would likely be prohibitive. Still fun to think about.

Acera
April 23, 2010, 09:20 PM
ATCDoktor wonder if the ATF thinks that thing is 100% legal. It looks like a pistol designed for use by two hands, verboten, just like putting a fore grip on your light rail..........right??

Jim Watson
April 23, 2010, 09:24 PM
1. ...shorten both barrel and mag tube and re-weld them together?

They aren't welded together in the first place. Suggest more study of tubular magazine rifles before detail planning.

2. Which base rifle to use (leaning toward Cimmaron)?

I don't know of any of the Lightning repros that works well enough to spend money on.
Maybe there have been great strides made since I shot CAS last.

MachIVshooter
April 23, 2010, 09:54 PM
I don't know of any of the Lightning repros that works well enough to spend money on.

Oh, the Uberti is a really nice rifle. But it's also over a grand.

http://www.uberti.com/firearms/lightning.php

Don't know that I'd buy such a nice gun with the intention of hacking it up into some futuristic baron-wasteland-found-it-and-cobbled-it-together-because-it's-the-best-I-could-do looking conglomeration. But to each his own.

wonder if the ATF thinks that thing is 100% legal. It looks like a pistol designed for use by two hands, verboten, just like putting a fore grip on your light rail..........right??

It's not considered a grip, but a handgaurd (heat shield). And don't go writing letters to ATF asking about it, lest they change their current stance and classsify the thing as an AOW. It's happened before.

hammerklavier
April 23, 2010, 11:32 PM
If you weld the suppressor on, does that count as a permanent muzzle attachment?

ATCDoktor
April 23, 2010, 11:38 PM
Acera, in it's present form, it's 100% legal and it's considered a Title I handgun.

It was never manufactured as a Rifle (these specific guns from AWA are all made from recievers that the manufacturer built up as handguns).

To put a stock on it all you would have to do is register it as a Short Barreled Rifle (complete an ATF form 1 and pay the 200.00 tax and process the paperwork through ATF).

From that point on it's a short barreled rifle.

Reference your question about being designed to use two hands to fire, the forearm on this specific firearm could be no more considered a forward grip than the forearms/handguards on a Sig 556 Pistol, the Kel Tec PLR 16 Pistol or any of the AR 15 family of pistols.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
April 24, 2010, 10:16 AM
Jim, if it's not gonna be 99.44% reliable, then I'm gonna go with a levergun instead of a pump, so more research is definitely in order on the Uberti, etc., to see if they are, as you say, worth spending money on (in addition to the construction -- no weld, thank you -- issues).

Cut off the barrel? ------------------> WHY?
Suppress it?-------------------------> WHY?

What part of this

This will be the ultimate low-light-of-sight, semi-PC, lightweight, uber-handy, super-ergo, quick-cycling, cheap-to-reload (cast bullets and durable brass), close range, home defense, hunting, silent, tactical, critter-killin, big-bore thumpin, fun range carbine ever made!

did you not understand? :p :D

But to be more specific:

"Cut off the barrel? Why?" Because you get 95% of the performance in a lighter handier more ergo package. Big bores rely very very little on barrel length to gain velocity past 5-8 inches, and reducing the mag capacity from 8 or 9 or whatever down to 4 or 5 is just not an issue for me - that's plenty more than enough capacity for my uses. I'm not gonna fight the Taliban with this thing.

"Suppress it? WHY?" Why does anyone suppress anything? Same reasons. Quieter. More fun. Can shoot without ears on. Cool. Tacticool, in fact. :D

Don't know that I'd buy such a nice gun with the intention of hacking it up into some futuristic baron-wasteland-found-it-and-cobbled-it-together-because-it's-the-best-I-could-do looking conglomeration. But to each his own.

No, no, I don't know that you would either. But I know that *I* most definitely would, and will, if Uberti is a reliable machine - can you point me to any discussions with credible evidence that the Uberti runs like a top? Thanks. And it won't look too terribly cobbled. It's gonna have high-quality 'smithing on the barrel and tube mag reductions, good smithing on the mount for my RMR, a high quality suppressor, a high quality optic, and the self-fabricated buttstock will be done and finished nicely to match the wood forearm grip. Will probably commission some checkering and such. It WILL look funky, but not cheap.


It's not considered a grip, but a handgaurd (heat shield). And don't go writing letters to ATF asking about it, lest they change their current stance and classsify the thing as an AOW. It's happened before.

Yes, this - excellent advice.


If you weld the suppressor on, does that count as a permanent muzzle attachment?

Oooh, now that's an interesting question - might could save me $200 on the SBR. 12" bbl plus 4 or more inch permanent suppressor = regular rifle. On second thought, I'd rather pay the $200 and not do that, so that (a) I can hunt with the rifle without the suppressor, and (b) I can use the suppressor on other things.

Acera
April 24, 2010, 10:24 AM
ATCDoktor not real sure you understand what I am saying.

The plastic pieces on the front of pistol ARs, Sig 556 pistol, Kel-Tech etc. are not grips. If they were grips then those weapons would have to be registered as an AOW, so they are heat shields or something like that. Hence, same reason you can not legally add a pistol grip to any of those guns rails without having the proper stamp.

Now while it is most common to see this violation in the form of a vertical grip, I am wondering if it can also be interpreted for a purpose designed grip, like on that pistol. The lever action version does not have the same issue, and is probably what you are thinking about, but with that piece of wood, designed to be gripped and used to actuate the action it might run afoul of the law.

I fully understand the process that brought that pistol to life, I am not sure the manufacturer is fully aware of how a over zealous ATF official might view it.









Quote:
It's not considered a grip, but a handgaurd (heat shield). And don't go writing letters to ATF asking about it, lest they change their current stance and classsify the thing as an AOW. It's happened before.
Yes, this - excellent advice.


Yeah guys that is real highroad. Ok we think this might be illegal, don't stir the pot and we all find out it is?? LOL, If it were illegal, I would want to know beforehand, and not after. Not real sure if that is the way we ought to be doing things here.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
April 24, 2010, 10:24 AM
Wait a minute - what the heck am I saying, RMR? Obviously this thing will HAVE to have night-vision capable optics. :)

The Colt Lightning is called "the rifle that should have won the west."

Exactly - it WOULD HAVE, had it had my improvements to it! :p

Abel
April 24, 2010, 10:28 AM
It looks like a pretty dumb idea. Several times over. But, its your money. I'm all for it.

Deltaboy
April 24, 2010, 10:32 AM
Looks like a Cool Idea to me Dr. TW.

jmorris
April 24, 2010, 10:35 AM
If you weld the suppressor on, does that count as a permanent muzzle attachment?

Yes it does. It can save you $200 on the SBR stamp but you also can't move the suppressor from gun to gun either.


cheap-to-reload (cast bullets and durable brass),

Bad idea with a suppressor. However if you do you must make certain that you can take the can apart for cleaning.


Here is one I built that is welded with the end cap off it's 16.125".

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/can/DSC01673.jpg

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/can/DSC01669.jpg

jmorris
April 24, 2010, 10:41 AM
Quote:
It's not considered a grip, but a handgaurd (heat shield). And don't go writing letters to ATF asking about it, lest they change their current stance and classsify the thing as an AOW. It's happened before.
Yes, this - excellent advice.


Yeah guys that is real highroad. Ok we think this might be illegal, don't stir the pot and we all find out it is?? LOL, If it were illegal, I would want to know beforehand, and not after. Not real sure if that is the way we ought to be doing things here.

I think what they are saying is that the BATFE has a (long) history of saying things are OK then later reversing the decision. Think of the "less is more" concept when it comes to making or making up laws that will limit us.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
April 24, 2010, 10:43 AM
Hey Jmorris - thanks - will lead buildup in the suppressor be bad with cast bullets, *even* if subsonic loads, you think?

Funny how the responses are all very positive or very negative - you either love the idea or you hate it - no in between.

lions
April 24, 2010, 11:49 AM
3. 10" or 12" barrel?

ballisticsbytheinch (http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/45colt.html)

I would go with 10" from this data.

garyhan
April 24, 2010, 12:16 PM
If you decide to go the lever gun route, check out Oregon Research Labs LLC. He has subppressed SBR Rossi .44 mags read to go.

gary

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
April 24, 2010, 01:05 PM
Thanks a lot Gary - I wonder if they'd do one in .45 Colt. It has to be .45 Colt. I'll ask them.

MachIVshooter
April 24, 2010, 01:27 PM
It's not considered a grip, but a handgaurd (heat shield). And don't go writing letters to ATF asking about it, lest they change their current stance and classsify the thing as an AOW. It's happened before.
Yes, this - excellent advice.


Yeah guys that is real highroad. Ok we think this might be illegal, don't stir the pot and we all find out it is?? LOL, If it were illegal, I would want to know beforehand, and not after. Not real sure if that is the way we ought to be doing things here.
I think what they are saying is that the BATFE has a (long) history of saying things are OK then later reversing the decision. Think of the "less is more" concept when it comes to making or making up laws that will limit us.

Exactly.

Example:

You used to be able to buy a pistol, then a Mec-Tec or other carbine conversion kit, and change it back and forth whenever you wanted. Then all of a sudden, ATF decided that unless the gun was bought as a carbine kit, once you convert the pistol to the rifle, you can't go back to pistol without first registering it as an SBR.

kenno
April 24, 2010, 01:34 PM
#1 What Vidieo games have you been playing lately?
#2 Why do,,,,,,never mind

Still 2 Many Choices!?
April 24, 2010, 01:35 PM
If the "heat shield" ,or "barrel shroud", was not meant to be "gripped", then 90% of the websites that sell the item for AR rifles and pistols, would not label the part as a "Handguard", duh!! The fact that the BATFE has not classified all these afore mentioned pistols(Sig556, AR Pistol, AK pistol) as AOW's, seems to hinge on the fact that they are more concerned with vertical pistol grips(or grips perpindicular to bore axis)on handguns. How or why this makes a pistol "more evil" in their eyes, is up for debate; but every AOW that I've ever seen(not counting oddities ie; pen guns,camera guns, and the like) , be it shotgun, handgun, or made from a virgin EBR receiver, has had a PERMANENTLY attatched grip, that may be able to fold, but can be used Perpindicular to bore axis. Forward grips are fine, just not if they are, or can be used Perpindicular to the bore axis.

The handgun, technically pistol (because it can be gripped by two hands) on the first page IS NOT classifiable as an AOW under BATFE's current interpretation of the law.

BATFE has the power to change their mind at any time on this matter, but for now, it is, what it is...


Still 2 Many Choices!?

Still 2 Many Choices!?
April 24, 2010, 02:00 PM
Oh yeah, forgot to add that I love the idea of the OP's suppressed, "critter gitter", :D!!

jmorris
April 24, 2010, 02:18 PM
Hey Jmorris - thanks - will lead buildup in the suppressor be bad with cast bullets, *even* if subsonic loads, you think?


Yes, this is why almost every .22lr can comes apart.


One other method I have used to keep things as short as I could with a 16" barrel is to have the can go back over the barrel making a large blast chamber and not adding as many baffles. Here are some photos of my homemade 458 SOCOM can. It makes less noise than either of my .223 cans (AAC M4 1000 and M4 2000). Neither idea is very tube mag friendly though.

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/can/458socom/ecusxsxs.jpg

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o213/jmorrismetal/can/458socom/layout.jpg

crushbup
April 24, 2010, 02:53 PM
I think there are two options to consider suppressor wise, presuming you want to buy a factory made one. Either small and light, or huge and quiet. A .45 subgun can would cover the large and quiet aspect, and there are far too many options to name here. If you're looking for something handier, you can go the expensive route: AAC TiRANT .45 or SilencerCo Osprey (would look bad on this project, I think). Both of those are of moderate length and weight and offer excellent suppression. However, you may want to look at the Thompson Machine QMF. It is small, it has pretty good performance, and is about half the price of the other two.

ATCDoktor
April 24, 2010, 03:48 PM
Acera, how could it run afoul of the law?

The AWA slide action pistol is a factory made slide action handgun that has passed muster with the ATF's Firearms Technical Branch.

So is the DPMS Pump action pistol:

http://www.dpmsinc.com/firearms/firearm.aspx?id=45

The forearm on (these handguns) is no more a vertical foregrip than those I previously mentioned.

ATF would be hard pressed (in my mind) to differentiate between two.

And, if someone were to register either as an SBR and add a stock, the concern about the VFG goes away.

KodiakBeer
April 24, 2010, 04:47 PM
Wouldn't a pump .410 shotgun with a slug barrel make a cheaper starting point? You could probably find a beater in a pawn shop somewhere.

Acera
April 25, 2010, 12:58 PM
The forearm on (these handguns) is no more a vertical foregrip than those I previously mentioned.

I have never seen where they stated a difference in style. This pistol has a designed grip in front of the regular grip.

Just would not risk it. As many have said, the ATF has changed it's mind on things like this in the past. Is it worth it??


It probably does not matter what aftermarket parts are called, if the manufacturer of those AR's said it was a grip and not a heat shield or something like that, it might matter then.


May just have to write a letter to see what they say. I will let you guys know the results.

ATCDoktor
April 25, 2010, 02:26 PM
Acera, why waste your ink??

ATF has already ruled on this.

These come with an ATF letter stating that they are not NFA:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZrFQ9XhL4E

It appears that the concern from ATF is "Vertical" foregrips.

From the ATF website:

Q: Is it legal to attach a vertical fore grip to a handgun?
“Handgun” is defined under Federal law to mean, in part, “a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand…” Gun Control Act of 1968, 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(29).

Under an implementing regulation of the National Firearms Act (NFA), 27 C.F.R. § 479.11, “pistol” is defined as:

… a weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).
The NFA further defines the term “any other weapon” (AOW) in 26 U.S.C. § 5845(e) as:

… any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.
ATF has long held that by installing a vertical fore grip on a handgun, the handgun is no longer designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand. Therefore, if individuals install a vertical fore grip on a handgun, they are “making” a firearm requiring registration with ATF’s NFA Branch. Making an unregistered “AOW” is punishable by a fine and 10 years’ imprisonment. Additionally, possession of an unregistered “AOW” is also punishable by fine and 10 years’ imprisonment.

To lawfully add a vertical fore grip to a handgun, a person must make an appropriate application on ATF Form 1 (5320.1), “Application to Make and Register a Firearm.” The applicant must submit the completed form, along with a fingerprint card bearing the applicant’s fingerprints; a photograph; and $200.00. The application will be reviewed by the NFA Branch. If the applicant is not prohibited from possessing a firearm under Federal, State, or local law, and possession of an “AOW” is not prohibited in the applicant’s State of residence, the form will be approved. Only then may the person add a vertical fore grip to the designated handgun.

A person may also send the handgun to a person licensed to manufacture NFA weapons. The manufacturer will install the fore grip on the firearm and register the firearm on an ATF Form 2 (5320.2). The manufacturer can then transfer the firearm back to the individual on an ATF Form 4 (5320.4), which results in a $5.00 transfer tax. If the manufacturer is out of State, the NFA Branch will need a clarification letter submitted with the ATF Form 4 so that the NFA Branch Examiner will know the circumstances of the transfer. Questions can be directed to the NFA Branch or the Firearms Technology Branch.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/firearms-technology.html

Acera
April 25, 2010, 05:42 PM
Great reference, just reinforces my point.


ATF has long held that by installing a vertical fore grip on a handgun, the handgun is no longer designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand.

I don't think that this slide action gun was designed to be held and fired with one hand. If it were is a rifle configuration, one would hold it with both hands, one hand operating the action through the use of the front grip. Just because it does not now rest against the shoulder, and have a long barrel does not change the way the "pistol" operates. By design you must use two hands to operate it.


“Handgun” is defined under Federal law to mean, in part, “a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand…” Gun Control Act of 1968, 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(29)


By reading your above quote. I appears to violate that. Oh well, we will see.

Heljac
April 25, 2010, 06:13 PM
Acera, if the ATF has already cleared it (this having been proven several times on this thread), why are you wasting your time with this? Do you want the ATF to reverse their decision? They already cleared it through a letter to the manufacturer. You just seem to be pretty set on proving yourself right (you aren't), and don't care what happens to that business or to the shooting community because of it.

ATCDoktor
April 25, 2010, 06:40 PM
Acera wrote:

Quote:
“Handgun” is defined under Federal law to mean, in part, “a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand…” Gun Control Act of 1968, 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(29)


By reading your above quote. I appears to violate that. Oh well, we will see

The word "appears" is a neat little word and as we all know it's subjective in it's meaning.

Although it may "appear" to you that the AWA and DPMS products are not designed to be fired with one hand, to those people duly charged with determing such things, it does.

ATF and DPMS/AWA "appear" to have discussed this and feel differently.

All that being said, please do let us know what ATF says when you try and convince them it should be a Short Barrled Rifle.

In meantime I have gotta find one to SBR (hopefully for less than 1300 bucks).

THE DARK KNIGHT
April 25, 2010, 07:16 PM
Dude. Ignore the haters! This looks like one hell of a fun gun. I guarantee it would be the only one ever done :D Do it!

Heljac
April 25, 2010, 08:11 PM
Dude. Ignore the haters! This looks like one hell of a fun gun. I guarantee it would be the only one ever done Do it!

I agree! This looks to be an interesting and unique project!

cchris
April 25, 2010, 09:31 PM
“Handgun” is defined under Federal law to mean, in part, “a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand…” Gun Control Act of 1968, 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(29)

By reading your above quote. I appears to violate that. Oh well, we will see.

This gun sounds like it is able to be fired with one hand. Reloading is a different matter. If this was the case, wouldn't the DPMS panther be illegal? It can be fired with one hand.

Dimis
April 25, 2010, 10:50 PM
Tad awesome idea i love thos epost apoclyptic end of the world wierdo hero guns from zombie movies

so let me get this straight i cant use two hands to operate a pistol?

well there goes my weaver stance and practicly all my trainging with the push pull method not to mention my accuracy

btw quit griping about grippings we got your point about it being a grip now dummy up like the rest of us and say its a "handgaurd" before one lame duck ruins the lot

RyanM
April 26, 2010, 04:43 PM
Acera, you better throw away most of the pistols you own that were made after the 90's or so. A lot of newer guns have serrations on the front of the trigger guard, which are completely unusable if you're holding the gun with only one hand...

WoofersInc
April 26, 2010, 07:44 PM
As far as the suppressor goes, my reccomendation is the SilencerCo Osprey. Right now it is the quietest 45 caliber suprresssor on the market. Another feature is that it is an offset design with most of the chambers below the bore. This allows it to sit lower than any other suprressor and allows you to use the factory sights.

I already have a 45 suppressor and am seriously looking at getting one of these. I got to hear one a few days ago. It was quieter than the 9mm suprressors that some of the other guys were shooting.

http://www.silencerco.com/Silencerco/#/osprey/

hso
April 26, 2010, 08:40 PM
http://www.orl-llc.com/ShoppingCart/OtherNFA/NFA.ht55.jpg

I'd have never thought anyone had already done it, but...SBR - Rossi Model 92 .44mag

ATCDoktor
April 26, 2010, 11:31 PM
That's exactly what I want.

sonier
April 26, 2010, 11:41 PM
needs some rail attachments on the frame for some night vision and some serious tactil 1/8 moa adjustable scopes with multiple powers for shooting thos far places like 100 yards or less..............lol oh well at least you can look at the animal as if it was in mag glass lol

jeffmack
April 26, 2010, 11:56 PM
:)
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=485510

I am in the wrong line of work.

P.S. Make that "You're"

jeffmack
April 27, 2010, 12:13 AM
Hso:

Where did you find that picture?

MrM4
April 27, 2010, 09:09 AM
hso,

Looks like a fun toy :D

Yo Mama
April 27, 2010, 09:29 AM
"Krazy Kowboy Karbine"

KKK? Hmmmm.....

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
April 27, 2010, 10:24 AM
Yeah, HSO, where is that from? Yes, like that, but a pump, with a P-grip and buttstock, and a forward-mounted ESD of some sort.

KKK..... hhmmm, oops, didn't think of that. OK, then it's the CCC - Crazy Cowboy Carbine.

Yo Mama
April 29, 2010, 09:29 AM
Yup, ccc just sounds better to me! :)

shagmcnasty
May 1, 2010, 07:35 PM
great idea

hso
May 2, 2010, 11:49 AM
www.orl-llc.com

Still 2 Many Choices!?
May 2, 2010, 12:08 PM
Acera:

If you didn't notice, the ATF makes a distinction between a "handgun", and a "pistol". All pistols CAN BE handguns(or not), but all handguns not pistols. Pistols are allowed to have a second grip! Pistols can be handguns because they CAN be fired with on hand, and have a short stock below the bore axis; they don't HAVE to be designed that way like DEFINED HANDGUNS though.

The ATF doesn't regulate HOW you hold/fire PISTOLS, or HANDGUNS(yet:scrutiny:); but how many STOCKS are on a HANDGUN. Specifically a handgun that was purpose built with only one stock, by adding a second GRIPPABLE STOCK, it is modifying the original design to something new. As stupid as it is, I see their logic.

Still 2 Many Choices!?

jeffmack
January 17, 2011, 09:46 PM
Hey Dr. Tad,
Did you ever get it made?

kayak-man
January 21, 2011, 12:04 PM
Are you making props for a FIREFLY comeback?
Please say yes!!!

Actually, I think that could be a pretty slick gun.

Chris "the Kayak-Man" Johnson

BlacklabelOP
January 22, 2011, 03:31 AM
http://i480.photobucket.com/albums/rr165/sweetbeard/2011-01-20_16-01-07_230.jpg

Dan Forrester
January 24, 2011, 03:17 PM
Well I only read the first page but I think it’s a great idea. I have looked at the various pump action pistol caliber rifles but it seems like the lever actions are the way to go. I had a Marlin lever action with a 3 lug barrel and a Gemtech Trinity that I messed around with for a while. It was a great combo. Even though the Trinity is a loud suppressor it still was very pleasant out of the rifle barrel with .38 spl.

I sold that particular gun but am planning on building another now that the stainless steel Marlin .357 lever guns are out. I always opt for stainless over blued living around salt water. I also now have an AAC Ti-Rant which is a fantastic suppressor. Once they come out with the three lug adapter for it I’ll be making another lever gun.

If you do go with .44 or .45 LC I would look at the new 2011 AAC Ti-Rant .45 ACP since it is now possible for the end user to disassembled the can and remove the baffle stack with a supplied tool. This will allow you to remove lead buildup if shooting cast bullets. The Ti-Rant is also probably tied for the quietest .45 can on the market along with the Silencerco Osprey. However AAC revealed at the shot show that for 2011 their Ti-Rant 9mm and .45 ACP suppressors will be end user serviceable for internal cleaning.

If you want big bore quiet you could do a lever gun in .44 magnum if you wanted. Douglas barrels makes a stainless steel fast twist barrel which can be chambered in .44 spl or .44 magnum. The barrel is 1:11 twist so you could easily stabilize 300 grain and up cast slugs at under the sound barrier. I would go with a Marlin .44 magnum lever gun in stainless with the tube cut off at the end of the stock along with a Douglas 1:11 fast twist barrel fit to the gun. That would make for a compact package firing 300 grain plus lead slugs at 1,000 fps with probably no more noise than a pellet rifle. You’d be surprised how quiet this new generation of suppressors from AAC and Silencerco are on manually operated actions.

Post a write up if you build anything.

Dan

Edit: Just realized I’m replying to a year old post. Oh well. I got excited!

Harve Curry
February 17, 2011, 02:36 PM
I once saw a antique 1892 Winchester 25-20 in a beautiful fitted case. Guess what accessory slot was missing, the suppressor.It was considered a gentleman's varmint gun for shooting around the estate.

Kentucky_Rifleman
February 27, 2011, 10:38 AM
It looks like a pretty dumb idea. Several times over. But, its your money. I'm all for it.

If you get this done, I may have to follow suit. I always wanted a Delisle carbine. This would be an acceptable substitute.

KR

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