Wanting a homemade can. Need advice


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SmurfDude
May 18, 2010, 03:30 AM
I live in Dallas. I know I can own the can. I am just worried about getting my signature from our police chief. I know it would be on Form 1. I have read about some people forming a Trust, and getting around the dreaded signature. How hard is this to do. I am going to try to get him to sign, but I am not getting my hopes up. This would be my first homemade can. I am going to put it on a 22. Any advice or help would be great. Thanks in advance.:)

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SmurfDude
May 18, 2010, 03:32 AM
Also does anyone know of any good suppressors for a 22 for around $200. I could always do a form 4. If I find one in my price range.

mrnkc130
May 18, 2010, 04:43 AM
you will probably get several different answers on making a trust, some people just dont like the trust route for some reason. It's very easy though. Buy quicken willmaker, follow the instructions it walks you thru everything, list nfa items you are registering or transfering in your schedule a. Your trust is the owner/applicant for atf forms, get it notarized, send it off with your cert, forms and check.

I dont have any .22 cans yet so i cant really reccomend one, but i like YHM cans and i think thier mite suppressor runs about $250 or so, might want to check them out.

unless you really know what you are doing i wouldnt advise building one, they are fairly inexpensive for .22's

Ranb
May 18, 2010, 08:32 AM
I make my own on a hobby lathe. I save lots of money because I invested about $2000 in tools and have made eight so far, including a 510 whisper silencer that would have cost me about $2500. I would not recomend making your own unless you have access to a lathe and intend to make several. Get a good lathe and think of it as a lifetime invetment.

I used a trust I made using Quicken will maker.

Ranb

SmurfDude
May 18, 2010, 06:19 PM
Thanks for the help. I think you guys are right on about waiting to make a homemade. I have access to all the tools I need. I even have a lathe I can use at a Cousin's house. I will check quicken out. Do you know of anyone in the Desoto area that actually got a CLEO? Just thought I might ask.

Ranb
May 18, 2010, 08:25 PM
Make an appointment to talk to your local sheriff. Be polite and tell him why you want to make a silencer. Also stress that you can use a trust, but only if he refuses to sign. He can know who owns silencers in his jurisdiction or he can remain ignorant who does; his choice.

I sent a letter to the new sheriff after the last election here in WA and politely let him know these facts. He signed the forms and sent a note thanking me for jumping through the hoops.

Remember that in TX, silencers are technically illegal for civilians to possess, but registration is an affirmative defense to prosecution (but not arrest). This is a good reason to always have the ATF form on you when you are out using the silencer. If your Sheriff brings up this fact, remind him that the ATF routinely approves requests to make and buy silencers in TX.

A good place to ask about the CLEO sign-offs are http://www.subguns.com and SilencerTalk.

Ranb

jmorris
May 19, 2010, 12:24 AM
I went the trust but I didn't try for the LEO first. It was just less of a pain to go to Frys and get the quicken will maker. You only have to make one trust for every NFA item you get (and modify the sched A each time) or you have to go through the LEO sig, photo, finger prints every time.

If you buy a .22 can, I really like the Checkmate.

Riss
June 4, 2010, 02:38 PM
The Tactical innovations cans are nice. And I think the cheapest around. They will do for a .22 but are not rated for 223.

lions
June 4, 2010, 03:37 PM
Also does anyone know of any good suppressors for a 22 for around $200. I could always do a form 4. If I find one in my price range.

I have a tactical innovations Tac65, paid just a little more than $200 after taxes. I don't have anything to compare it to but I have been more than satisfied with it.

Victor1Echo
June 25, 2010, 10:18 AM
Okay, I do not really understand this, but you need to get a trust to own a silencer? Talk about infringing on your rights.

Lee Roder
June 25, 2010, 10:29 AM
Remember that in TX, silencers are technically illegal for civilians to possess, but registration is an affirmative defense to prosecution (but not arrest).

Guess I'm not understanding something (which is very likely since this is something else I'm new to) but if the "item" is illegal in your jurisdication, won't ATF just DENY your application for registration? I'm sure that's one thing they check.

Ranb
June 25, 2010, 11:18 AM
Victor1Echo,

I am not aware of any state that requires a trust to own a silencer, but it can be one option if the CLEO will not sign. Yes it is an infringement, but the 2nd amendment has been ignored for a long time now. It is the gun owners fault because we elect the jerks that ignore it.

Lee Roder,

I guess the ATF understands that TX intends to only ban unregistered silencers. There are a few other states that make it illegal to own them unless they are registered. Writing to the ATF for clarification is probably a sure way convince them to stop approving transfers in TX.

Ranb

CoRoMo
June 25, 2010, 01:40 PM
...you need to get a trust to own a silencer?
Nope. You read it wrong.

Pretty much everything that has been said here is the nutshell info.

My CLEO charges something like $20, each time, to do the fingerprints. I don't know how much it costs to get passport-type photos made, but I bought WillMaker for $13.95 out the door. The 2008 version of WM has the RevLivTrust on it, but I think the later versions don't. FYI.

Look through the past threads and posts from Mr. Ranb. He's doled out a lot of good information here on this topic. If you want to make your own cans, you really need access to a good lathe, as he's mentioned.

crossrhodes
June 27, 2010, 01:11 PM
New to this thread. Can some one educate me on the Trust thing.
Thanks.

230therapy
June 27, 2010, 01:40 PM
Quickie google search:

http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/
http://www.nfa-trusts.com

Ranb
June 29, 2010, 12:41 AM
Guntrustlawyer wants $600 for a trust, nfa-trusts wants $750. I paid $32 for Quicken instead. I made a trust for myself and a shared trust for my brother and I.

Ranb

Ian
June 29, 2010, 01:16 AM
Yep, I went with Quicken WillMaker as well. I wonder if Quicken knows they have a hot niche product here? :) Anyway, I submitted a Form 4 for a SBR about 6 weeks ago. Haven't gotten anything back yet...

leadcounsel
June 29, 2010, 01:25 AM
you will probably get several different answers on making a trust, some people just dont like the trust route for some reason. It's very easy though. Buy quicken willmaker, follow the instructions it walks you thru everything, list nfa items you are registering or transfering in your schedule a. Your trust is the owner/applicant for atf forms, get it notarized, send it off with your cert, forms and check.

Ah, not so fast.

If you screw up a regular trust, not a big deal it's just some property.... You screw up a NFA trust and you can go to prison. Hire a professional for a few hundred bucks or get the required John Handcocks.

mrnkc130
June 29, 2010, 03:30 AM
Ah, not so fast.

If you screw up a regular trust, not a big deal it's just some property.... You screw up a NFA trust and you can go to prison. Hire a professional for a few hundred bucks or get the required John Handcocks.


Ahh yes only a schooled lawyer can fill in blanks. Its just a trust with NFA items in it, no different from a trust with anything else in it. If you know how to spell your name you will be able to fill out a trust with quicken willmaker. There are probably 10's of thousands of NFA weapons owned with trusts in Texas and the rest of the country, how many times do you hear of people going to prison because thier trust was invalid?

I'm pretty sure quicken has lawyers that work for them as well, what makes them any more fallible than any other lawyer who charges 25 times as much for the same thing? I'm failry certian you havent seen a Texas RLC before, or you are a lawyer and feel the need to elevate your profession.

If you trust youself enough to spell your name and a few other peoples names correctly and you can tie your shoes then you have nothing to worry about, don't waste your money on a lawyer.

Ironman
June 29, 2010, 07:54 AM
Wow, lots of mis information here...

I'll start my saying for your 1st venture into the world of NFA, I'd start with a high quality manufactured can, then start to tinker with baffle designs on a form1, after you get a better understanding of gas flow, heat exchange, etc.

With a Revocable living trust set up for NFA use you'll have less headaches than the CLEO route and you can easily state who your property goes to upon your passing. As of a month ago the ATF is cracking down on trusts because every Joe blow out there is submitting a quicken will maker trust, some with gross mistakes as the law pertaining to will filing and writing wasn't followed for the state they reside in. Plus it's funny that these people are so cheap so protect a lifetime investment that if dine wrong can lead you broke and 10yrs in jail....the ATF loves to make examples of free Americans.

Call around in your area, I had my trust set up for $195, and it was done correctly. Also you don't need a new trust for every item! That's the most retarded thing ive heard in a while....you just add your newly approved items into your schedule A and send in a COPY of your entire trust including your SA with every new purchase.

Also since this is a lifetime investment, I recommend you save up and use more than a $200 budget on a rimfire can. The yhm mite is a poor design and is way louder than most every mnf out there....look at silencerco sparrow, swr specter, aac element....

There is nothing worse than waiting 100 days only to find out that for a measly 100-200 bucks more you could have owned a can twice as quiet.

Ranb
June 29, 2010, 11:50 AM
Ironman, the lowest price I was able to find for setting up a trust was $600. Can you give us the contact information for the lawyer you used?

I think buying a 22lr can (that is most likely sealed) to learn about making a silencer is a big waste of money. I learned a lot by examining drawings available on the internet, then making my own.

A form 1 builder is limited in the amount of tinkering that can be performed when they only hold one tax stamp. Once a silencer is made, the form 1 builder can not replace parts unless they send it to a class 2 or pay another tax.

Can you give me an example of a trust that was rejected by the ATF? I have only heard of one person (in 70 plus years) who had an NFA trust problem after the tax stamp application was approved. While this person did obtain the services of a lawyer after the problem arose, he did not have his firearm taken away.

Ranb

Ranb
June 29, 2010, 12:00 PM
You screw up a NFA trust and you can go to prison.

I doubt it. If the trust is not correct, then the ATF will not approve the tax stamp application. If they approve the applcation then later change their mind, it is very unlikely that the firearm owner will ever see the inside of a prison cell. A bad trust may cost them lawyer fees and their firearm, but not their freedom. If you have any evidence to suggest otherwise, I suggest you post it here.

Take a look at the Akins Accelerator owners. Long after people bought their "ATF approved" title 1 10/22 stock, the ATF reversed their decision and told the customers they owned unregistered machine guns. None of them went to prison. Any ATF agent going to court over it probably would have been laughed at by the judge.

Remember the child rape case back in the 80's? The prosecutor had videotape of the men raping a child, but were not sent to prison. Why? Because the government has issued a passport to the "child" using her stage name and fake birthdate. That child was Traci Lords.

A person is not likely to go to jail for the ATF screwing up approval of a tax stamp application.

Ranb

jmorris
June 29, 2010, 12:56 PM
I made my trust on quicken then had the two lawyers in my family look it over before sending it to the NFA branch. They made zero changes but that is in TX and the lingo varies from state to state. I know almost a dozen others that have used the exact same trust just with changed names, without any problems.

If you make your own you don't have to get very fancy with .22 or even pistol rounds. A simple K baffel will work just fine as they have for years. May not be the super geewiz deal of the day but have been well proven.

mongo4567
July 3, 2010, 12:09 AM
The LEO that needs to do the signoff is the one you need to investigate, it is your county sheriff. You can just go to an NFA dealer in your area and they will likely be happy to fill you in. Or mention your county and someone here will be happy to chime in. In my central TX area for example, everyone knows that Travis county is good to go and Williamson county will require a trust. Nothing like an ignorant sheriff...

Lee Roder
July 3, 2010, 01:17 AM
A person is not likely to go to jail for the ATF screwing up approval of a tax stamp application.

Not trying to be a kill joy or anything but doesn't it work the same way as kid goes into liquor store with fake id and walks out with a bottle of hooch? Is the store owner "liable"? Or the "kid"? I don't believe the ATF has any responsibility to ensure the legality of your "trust". You are representing to them it is "legal". They aren't charged with providing legal advise. If it ever turns out not to be "legal", for whatever reason, I'd think you're F*CKED.

That said, I'm wrestling with this issue too right now so I could very well be wrong. It won't the first time nor the last I'm sure.

Ranb
July 3, 2010, 04:56 PM
You have a point. But in each case, the kid and store, and the silencer owner and the ATF all are partly responsible for the laws that are broken. The store owner illegally sold booze to a kid, and the ATF improperly authorized transfer of a firearm.

My claims in the above post are more based on an appearant lack of persons getting into trouble with trusts than my personal legal knowledge and should be treated accordingly. :)

Ranb

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