Data on crimes w/NFA?


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sv51macross
June 2, 2010, 12:45 AM
Is there data showing how many crimes have been committed with NFA items, and what items specifically?

My area of interest is in SBR/SBSs and Suppressors (Michigan will let one have a MG, AOW, or DD (inc. explosives/launchers))

[Sorry if its in the wrong thread, my question was specifically on NFA data...on reflection though it might belong in general)

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DoubleTapDrew
June 2, 2010, 03:36 PM
I don't think that data is available. Showing there have only been 2 crimes comitted using legally owned NFA items in the past 76 years would not help justify keeping them so tightly controlled.

The closest I can find is from http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcfullau.html
Since 1934, there appear to have been at least two homicides committed with legally owned automatic weapons. One was a murder committed by a law enforcement officer (as opposed to a civilian). On September 15th, 1988, a 13-year veteran of the Dayton, Ohio police department, Patrolman Roger Waller, then 32, used his fully automatic MAC-11 .380 caliber submachine gun to kill a police informant, 52-year-old Lawrence Hileman. Patrolman Waller pleaded guilty in 1990, and he and an accomplice were sentenced to 18 years in prison. The 1986 'ban' on sales of new machine guns does not apply to purchases by law enforcement or government agencies.
---
Thanks to the staff of the Columbus, Ohio Public Library for the details of the Waller case.

Source: talk.politics.guns FAQ, part 2.

The other homicide, possibly involving a legally owned machine gun, occurred on September 14, 1992, also in Ohio (source) (http://members.cox.net/arporro/photos/Shooting.pdf).

CoRoMo
June 2, 2010, 04:37 PM
I don't know Drew. I'm sure the other side would argue that there's ONLY been two crimes committed, using NFA items, in the past 76 years BECAUSE they are so tightly controlled. But you're right, and I also doubt the data is available or could ever be available, for the following two reasons.

What kind of crimes? Sometimes the most menial action that involves an NFA firearm is considered a crime; shipping it incorrectly, transporting it incorrectly, assembling it incorrectly, etc.

Are we talking legally owned NFA items only? Or all firearms that would otherwise be subject to its regulation? When a gang-banger on the streets of L.A. chops down a shotgun, then commits a crime with it, would that NFA violation even be brought up or mentioned in his charges/trial/conviction, the police investigation, anything? Or would he just get sent up on the primary crime and the firearm destroyed?

sv51macross
June 2, 2010, 04:41 PM
CoRoMo, I should have clarified, registered NFA items.

ReefRaider
June 2, 2010, 05:04 PM
The majority of crimes commited with NFA items are done so with stolen NFA stuff. There has been a number of self defence cases over the years. At least 2 of which come to mind. One was a mini 14 and the other was right here in FL. The guy in FL used the same gun twice to defend himself as I recall. Both times were good shoots for him The other guy spent lots of money and years of his life before he beat the charges. YMMV

DoubleTapDrew
June 3, 2010, 03:39 PM
I don't know Drew. I'm sure the other side would argue that there's ONLY been two crimes committed, using NFA items, in the past 76 years BECAUSE they are so tightly controlled.
Good point. I just wish they'd reopen the registry even if we still had to comply with the NFA and GCA.

When a gang-banger on the streets of L.A. chops down a shotgun, then commits a crime with it, would that NFA violation even be brought up or mentioned in his charges/trial/conviction, the police investigation, anything? Or would he just get sent up on the primary crime and the firearm destroyed?

Probably wouldn't even be brought up. They only go after otherwise law-abiding folks with money for those types of crimes. I've wondered if the hollywood bank robbers had lived if they'd get an extra 30 years or whatever for the 3 MGs they made and used.

CleverNickname
June 3, 2010, 09:36 PM
there's ONLY been two crimes committed, using NFA items, in the past 76 years

Not true, even if you're only talking about registered title II firearms. There might have been two murders committed with a registered title II firearm by a person to whom the firearms were registered, but that doesn't include:

1. Violent crimes where the victims were injured (or where no one was hurt, just threatened), committed with a registered title II firearm by a person to whom the firearm was registered.
2. Violent crimes committed with a registered title II firearm by someone other than the person to whom the firearm was registered (whether the firearms were stolen or whether they were loaned by the person to whom the firearm was registered).
3. Non-violent paperwork crimes committed with a registered title II firearm. For example, people are legally required to get permission from the ATF before taking title II firearms (other than AOWs or silencers) to another state, but I don't think every legal owner since 1934 has done this (whether purposefully or through lack of knowledge of the law).

Also, there's stuff like this guy, who used an MP5 to murder 5 of his neighbors and then committed suicide. (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/04/11/national/main505877.shtml)

sv51macross
June 3, 2010, 09:40 PM
^ But again, we're talking about the people whom ATF says are cool to own the toys, using the toys to successfully, intentionally, kill another individual without justification. (murder).

Is there a solid, concrete source that doesn't have 'gun' in its name supporting the 'only two murders with a NFA items in the past 76 years' statement?

Lee Roder
June 5, 2010, 06:58 PM
After spending the last few days reading the Gun Trust blog it seems that the majority of "crimes" over the NFA arise out of Quicken.

Seriously, I recall reading there (no link) that crimes with NFAs are "rare" but I don't recall any specifics. I feel sure sawed off shotguns have been used in more than 2 crimes, aka murders, in the past 76 years. But of course I don't know.

22lr
June 5, 2010, 07:59 PM
If they kept the data then they would be forced to admit NFA items are not inherently evil. And we cant have the general public thinking that NFA weapons aren't deadly killing machines.

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