Video-Grunt suppressor flash reduction


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machine gun jenny
July 27, 2010, 12:39 PM
R&D Video for muzzle flash reduction of the GRUNT suppressor (fired on a 16 AR)


http://www.youtube.com/user/innovativearms#p/u/31/H4_GG0kTPQA

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Al Thompson
July 27, 2010, 12:51 PM
Be interesting to see what that would look like without the suppressor - sort of a before and after. :)

machine gun jenny
July 27, 2010, 01:33 PM
We have that too, just dont pay attention to the guy talking at the end. He was an onlooker at the range we were at and was quoting db readings. We dont quote db readings as they are many variables and can be misleading.

11.5 AR with 4.5 Grunt suppressor

http://www.youtube.com/user/innovativearms#p/u/29/CdiMe_V5s2Q

strambo
July 28, 2010, 11:05 AM
Cool vids. Nowhere near hearing safe...but I don't think an M4-2000 would be either on my 10.5" I like the idea of a small suppressor just to take the edge off, makes sense for tactical teams. Harder sell to an individual who is probably interested in noise reduction primarily.

RhinoDefense
July 28, 2010, 01:07 PM
We don’t quote db readings as they are many variables and can be misleading.
Huh? Sound pressure level suppression data is the industry standard for measuring performance. If you intend to make silencers, I suggest you follow industry protocol.

lions
July 28, 2010, 03:30 PM
If you intend to make silencers, I suggest you follow industry protocol.

More and more manufacturers are moving away from stating db reduction levels for the very reasons machine gun jenny gave. Measured results and perceived results can vary largely. I appreciate a manufacturer being up front about it rather than boasting misleading numbers.

RhinoDefense
July 29, 2010, 01:11 AM
Name a few major manufacturers of silencers that don't report dB readings from the industry standard which is in accordance with Mil-Std 1474D protocol.

The amount of sound pressure level reduction is expressed in decibels and is what the entire industry of silencer manufacturers base their performance on. To tell me otherwise is laughable.

LiquidTension
July 29, 2010, 08:07 AM
The point is that to measure suppressor performance on dB alone is silliness. Can "X" may be rated at 122dB but sound louder than can "Y" rated at 123dB due to differences in tone and pitch. I do think that dB ratings give a really good starting point though. Pick the three or four with the quietest ratings and then go listen to them.

machine gun jenny
July 29, 2010, 11:02 AM
We have had all our suppressors db metered with state of the art equipment, with higher standards than are currently required by the US military. From our R&D (db metering included), we know our suppressors are on par if not exceeding the industry standards. We choose not to post db #s on our website or advertisements because we personally feel that it can be misleading to new purchasers. Too many variables are present with db readings (ammo, humidity, type of firearm, etc). Db metering, when posted as accurately as possible, should be used as merely a guide line as to what to expect. We are not against third party db posting, such as silencer research, but we do not want to advertise anything that could be confusing or deceptive to our clients. This is just how we choose to do business and understand that most manufacturers do not feel the same. -Jen

Al Thompson
July 29, 2010, 11:11 AM
Mark White (when he was making cans) told me the same thing. Mark evaluated his builds by having a professional musician listen as he fired each design.

:)

RhinoDefense
July 29, 2010, 11:53 AM
Right, silencers give off a certain tone, either by engineering for such to meet specific specifications or MENS for the military or government clients. Depending on the observer's level of hearing damage, a low tone or high tone silencer will be perceived either louder or quieter than the dB measurement suggests.

Perhaps put your opinion on your site so your potential clients can get the big picture of what you are doing and why. Also explain to them how a video camera and uploads compress the sound so you aren't getting an accurate representation of the sound signature.

Good luck in your business. It's a tough market to break into.

strambo
July 29, 2010, 11:53 AM
Well, I understand the technicalities of not posting DB readings...but the best way to sell lots of units from a marketing perspective would probably be by posting DB readings!

Why not post the DB readings and link to the raw data for anyone who wants to see the exact conditions those readings were obtained? Nobody could say it is misleading if their mind is numbed by all the details about the brand and calibration of meter, distance in cm from muzzle, firearm and barrel length, relative humidity, dimension and constriction of test room, distance from each wall.....

Then put up a FAQ on how to select a suppressor, why raw DB readings can be misleading and what to listen for.

lions
July 29, 2010, 02:28 PM
Name a few major manufacturers of silencers that don't report dB...
Gemtech and Tactical Innovations off the top of my head.

This is from the Tactical Innovations site:
Based on the wide range of differences in db data collection, data integrity and data interpretation, we do not publish meter generated db reductions (which have become somewhat of a joke in the suppressor industry).

RhinoDefense
July 29, 2010, 03:21 PM
OK, so Gemtech did a few years back due to the "internet". TI isn't really what I would consider a major manufacturer of silencers. Bet if you give them a call, as I did, they will tell you what their cans metered.

It's ironic that TI's reason for not publishing dB results is due to "date integrity and interpretation" yet state their opinion [which have become somewhat of a joke in the suppressor industry] seemingly like they are the voice of the entire industry. Got a good laugh out of that, thanks.

lions
July 29, 2010, 06:47 PM
Got a good laugh out of that, thanks.
Thank Tactical Innovations.

Post #8 does a much better job of conveying what I was saying. Posting db levels alone and nothing else isn't entirely helpful and can be very misleading to the consumer, not something I appreciate.

RhinoDefense
July 30, 2010, 12:13 AM
Silencer manufacturers measure performance in SPL reduction, of which dB is the unit of measure. The whole point of silencers is they suppress the sound signature of the weapon. How are you going to convey a superior product without adhering to the industry standard? Have your client listen to every competing silencer on the market in person so they may choose which fits their personal hearing level? Of course not. Nor can you have your clients listen to recorded video and audio since it won't give an accurate representation of the sound, since audio is compressed when recorded. I've been in the silencer business a respectable amount of time. I've seen a lot of companies come and go with new ideas, new testing, and all that. Fact remains the proper testing per the above Mil Std is the industry standard and until a paradigm is made to the industry, it's always going to be the standard testing protocol.

Zak Smith
July 30, 2010, 12:39 AM
As another suppressor manufacturer, let me weigh in: the quote from Tactical Innovations is pretty much right on. Although the mil-standard specs out the equipment and procedures for the test, some of the published dB numbers in the past have been unreproducible by anyone else. Thus, if a company follows the procedure and uses the right equipment and gets a legitimate, say, 25 dB reduction, their product will be summarized as a 25 dB can by many, and then compared to a bogus 35 dB number thrown out by someone else.

This is why third-party testers, notably John Titsworth of silencerresearch.com are testing suppressors using the mil-standard procedures and publishing results in an objective and unbiased manner.

There are other factors that are important in suppressor selection, and the different qualities that matter depend on the specific application as well. Although different suppressors have different tones, etc, the meter does not lie.

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