SHOT Day 2 - Kel Tec Shotgun


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TexasRifleman
January 19, 2011, 03:20 PM
Probably the most interest I've heard about new products this week is the new Kel Tec shotgun. They tell me they expect to ship around the end of this year, retailing in the $875 range.

Very compelling I have to say. Dual magazines with a control switch to choose left or right, rails everywhere.

Build quality of this prototype was way beyond what I expected. If this is maintained into the production models I think this is a home run product and one of the few things I have seen this week to make it to my "must have" list.

Some eye candy:

http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac154/texasrifleman2/kt2.jpg

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TexasRifleman
January 19, 2011, 03:21 PM
The dual magazine tubes are clearly visible here. Maybe slugs in one, shot in the other? Interesting to think about the possibilities of this system.


http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac154/texasrifleman2/kt1.jpg

TexasRifleman
January 19, 2011, 03:22 PM
Bottom view, another angle on the dual tubes, and a rail that just begs for a vertical grip.

http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac154/texasrifleman2/kt4.jpg

sansone
January 19, 2011, 03:24 PM
nice .. thanks for pics

TexasRifleman
January 19, 2011, 03:24 PM
Sling buckle on both sides.

http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac154/texasrifleman2/kt6.jpg

txhoghunter
January 19, 2011, 03:25 PM
Thanks for the updates, Tex. Keep 'em coming, this thing definitely caught my eye as I had the same idea about slugs in one, shot in the other as you did!

txhoghunter
January 19, 2011, 03:26 PM
But quick question, how does the prototype handle? (balance and overall feel)

TexasRifleman
January 19, 2011, 03:34 PM
I was very impressed. In fact I told a couple of guys I was standing with that this firearm has changed my opinion of KT. I have always liked their products but I was never just blown away with any other than my P3AT.

This shotgun changes all of that. Balance, feel, fit and finish, all seemed well thought out. The ergonomics of the right/left magazine tube switch are not bad at all. Didn't get to hold it loaded of course but empty it's really top notch.

I walked away feeling like I will have to get one for sure, and there hasn't been much yet this week that made me think that.

Personally I think the MSRP is a bit high, but I wouldn't expect to pay that much once the initial rush calms down.

txhoghunter
January 19, 2011, 04:41 PM
Yeah I'm with you on that pricetag. But this is one of those guns that I could see myself working a couple extra hours for!

SpentCasing
January 19, 2011, 05:32 PM
Just to be clear, this is a semi-auto right? More i think about the dual mag tubes with swtich, the more i like. Maybe this will give Saiga a run for the money for HD possibilities.

avs11054
January 19, 2011, 05:37 PM
Just to be clear, this is a semi-auto right? More i think about the dual mag tubes with swtich, the more i like. Maybe this will give Saiga a run for the money for HD possibilities.
it's pump action

SpentCasing
January 19, 2011, 05:42 PM
it's pump action

Hmmm, ok thanks. Changes things up in my mind a bit.

black_powder_Rob
January 19, 2011, 07:26 PM
still even if it is a pump it doubles the capacity and keeps it in a small pakage. I like the idea and can't wait to test one out.

txhoghunter
January 19, 2011, 07:29 PM
I think this is a great idea and I'm with Rob, can't wait to get one in my hands!

docfubar
January 19, 2011, 07:37 PM
I fondeled it yesterday and am fairly impressed with it. The weight isnt to bad I would prefer it weighed a pound or two more. The pump action was fairly smooth, I imagine it will smooth out as the show goes. The slide release was a little sharp. I have it on my list of must haves.

oneounceload
January 19, 2011, 07:45 PM
Fully loaded , you will get your pound or two more....the question then becomes how does it balance then?

pitsmile
January 19, 2011, 07:52 PM
How does the double magazine tubes work, regarding chambering? Do the shells alternate into the chamber or one empties then the other?

Girodin
January 19, 2011, 08:06 PM
How does the double magazine tubes work, regarding chambering? Do the shells alternate into the chamber or one empties then the other?

According to other threads on here, there is a manual switch that is used to select one or the other mag tube.

The product is unique and has not competition for something substantially similar, but the Kel tec reputation makes nearly $900 seem far to steep for a pump shotgun.

I'm also going to try to avoid being too eager before the are actually released and available for purchase. Who knows how far of that might actually be. And are they going to do their RFB "beta test program" where they release a very small number of them for the first year or so which will have a fair number of issues?

Very cool concept but I'll want to see it on the market, in number and wrung out a little bit, and at a reasonable price point before I fall head over heals for it.

pitsmile
January 19, 2011, 08:18 PM
Interesting. I think the idea is awesome, especially holding so many shells. On the other hand, I can see problems with feeding and switching between tubes, but I'm sure they thought of that. I'd think cleaning would be extra important, so whatever mechanism moving between tubes works properly (or however it feeds from the different magazine tubes). The price is a bit high.

BTW - the SHOT updates are great - thanks for your time!

HankB
January 19, 2011, 08:34 PM
Just to be clear, this is a semi-auto right? It wouldn't take long for the Obama administration to declare a 14-shot semi-auto a "destructive device" and class it with the Streetsweeper and a few others the way the Clinton administration did.

A US-made pump may dodge that designation.

Still, it's a cool looking gun. But I'll wait to see how reliable and durable it is according to folks in these forums who actually buy them. (Learned not to trust gun rags.)

Floppy_D
January 19, 2011, 08:37 PM
It's a clever design. I can't think of a single use I'd have for it, but that doesn't stop me from wanting to play with one. Kel-Tec sure does a fine job of affordably catering to niche markets, no harm in that.

Girodin
January 19, 2011, 08:42 PM
It wouldn't take long for the Obama administration to declare a 14-shot semi-auto a "destructive device" and class it with the Streetsweeper and a few others the way the Clinton administration did.


Like it has done with the 20 round saiga 12 right?

Zundfolge
January 19, 2011, 09:23 PM
I think the fear that a US MADE semi auto, high capacity shotgun would instantly be reclassified as a DD is just FUD.

The reason street sweepers and other high capacity auto loaders got classified as destructive devices was because they were IMPORTS and thus the "sporting purpose" clause kicked in.

Maybe they would force a semi auto Keltec bullpup shotgun into the DD box but I don't think so (otherwise the Saiga 12 would have been as soon as the 20 round drums showed up on the market)

CharlesT
January 19, 2011, 10:48 PM
This is a great idea. Screw loading something slug, 00, slug, 00, slug. Load slugs in one tube and 00 buck in the other.

Nice!

jerkface11
January 19, 2011, 10:57 PM
The weight isnt to bad I would prefer it weighed a pound or two more.

It has rails just add tacticool crap till it's heavy enough.

1stmarine
January 19, 2011, 11:06 PM
Not so fast. I am a great fun of the keltec products but before we need to see how every new product performs. We have many good shotguns and the saigas give you a lot of play with 2, 3 or as many magazines as you can carry.
I love this idea so we should keep a close eye on this.
Cheers,
E.

Girodin
January 20, 2011, 02:26 AM
Screw loading something slug, 00, slug, 00, slug.

I'd say screw that irrespective of having the KSG or not. Learn to perform a slug change over, its not that hard.

Vermont Guy
January 20, 2011, 11:29 AM
two words--bayonet lug

jkulysses
January 20, 2011, 12:05 PM
How long is the barrel on this or did they just have a very short barrel on there for the show??

docfubar
January 20, 2011, 12:13 PM
The barrel is 18" if I remember right. Its a bullpup so it looks shorter. When I said a pound or two more I meant empty weight. The only things I would put on would be a taclight and a sling. Doing a slug load is possible but practice will be needed since it ejects from the bottom and the ejection port is close to your armpit. There is a selector switch to choose either tube or you can lock both tubes and just chamber feed it.

george30
January 20, 2011, 02:37 PM
It seems like this shotgun could be great for law enforcement. Non-lethal bean bags in one tube and slugs or 00 buck in the other. Anybody else think this is a possibility? Where is the switch to change the tubes at?

Girodin
January 20, 2011, 02:54 PM
It seems like this shotgun could be great for law enforcement. Non-lethal bean bags in one tube and slugs or 00 buck in the other. Anybody else think this is a possibility? Where is the switch to change the tubes at?

I pretty sure in a world that often requires a whole separate gun, painted an extremely conspicuous color, like orange, for less lethal rounds the idea/practice of stuffing one tube full of buck and the other full of bean bags in the same gun and relying on an individual cop to get a mechanical switch to the correct side in the heat of the moment would be a total no go.

notasfancy
January 20, 2011, 07:57 PM
Having both non-lethal and lethal ammunition at the same time would not be allowed. It only takes a simple switch error to kill someone by mistake or for you to be killed.
Police has extrict regulations regarding these type of matters.
For civilian use, watch out, every round has your name and your lawyers name written on it.
NSF.

Dark1
January 20, 2011, 08:25 PM
Hi just a little input on this gun It is just a Upgraded version of a preexisting South African shotgun that has been around for a long time called the neostead
http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/safr/neostead-e.html . When it was designed it was intended on having nonlethal in one tube and lethal in the other bad idea for here in the us but the people that designed it in the SA thought it would be a good idea for cops.

The Wiry Irishman
January 21, 2011, 03:28 AM
Hi just a little input on this gun It is just a Upgraded version of a preexisting South African shotgun that has been around for a long time called the neostead

Doubtful. The link you posted shows the Neostead loads by tipping the mag tubes (located above the barrel), the pump slides forward then back because it has a fixed breech face and moving barrels. The Keltec has none of these things. The only similarity is the dual magazine tubes.

Dark1
January 21, 2011, 05:32 AM
I got the info on its base gun from some one that works for Kel Tec themselves it is the next generation of that gun fixing the things the people in SA decided was hurting its adoption by the .gov over there.

Zoogster
January 21, 2011, 10:32 AM
It seems like this shotgun could be great for law enforcement. Non-lethal bean bags in one tube and slugs or 00 buck in the other. Anybody else think this is a possibility?

but the people that designed it in the SA thought it would be a good idea for cops.


No, law enforcement tries to keep lethal and less lethal weapons completely separate.
Even still there is accidents.
For example here is a 2009 case where an officer tries to go for his holstered taser to shoot a down subject, but pulls his sidearm from its holster instead and shoots the suspect who is already down on the ground unarmed in the back killing him:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0P8TSP2YJU&feature=related


In a stressful situation, with a clearly antagonizing crowd nearby the stressed officer pulls the wrong weapon from his holster which results in the death of the individual.
The officer states he meant to pull his taser, which from all accounts and the evidence (including multiple videos taken by different people) supports this. He was as surprised by the gunshot as everyone else.

Multiple similar cases have been noted elsewhere in the nation. A Maryland cop was found not guilty after going for his holstered taser and accidentally pulling his gun and shooting a man who was running away.
In the decision the court cited numerous case law precedent for the 4th District (which includes multiple states) where officers accidentally shooting or slaughtering people were found not guilty, even when due to negligence.


(And these are just cases where the officer admits to accidentally using lethal force, not the many where they claim a perceived justification after.)



Now consider how much more difficult it is to draw the wrong weapon than having a selector switch on the wrong setting.
People would frequently be accidentally killed if you mixed less lethal and lethal in the same weapon.

SheepNutz
January 21, 2011, 01:17 PM
The one thing that concerns me about this shotgun is that if you hold the trigger to the rear after shooting, then cycle the pump, the trigger does not reset, even if you release it. You must release the trigger, then cycle the pump to reset it. Here's a video to demonstrate:
http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/2011/01/21/kel-tec-ksg-shotgun-fail/

readr1
January 21, 2011, 07:49 PM
This is a deal killer for me. The trigger has to reset, else in a stressful situation its naught but an expensive short club. JMHO

smince
January 22, 2011, 08:15 AM
From what I've read on another forum, the LE model does have the reset.

The 'civilian' model does not and KT considers it an additional 'safety feature'.

FWIW, the posters on the other forum said KT was very responsive to their concerns so it may be fixed by the time it gets to market.

farscott
January 23, 2011, 02:30 PM
I know this shotgun is not designed for wing shooting, but I have to wonder about the balance of a gun with offset magazine tubes when one tube is being emptied at a faster rate than the other. Swinging the KT will be a very dynamic event. Interesting idea and a gun that I would like to give a whirl.

TechBrute
January 23, 2011, 11:06 PM
I was with TexasRifleMan looking at the Kel-Tec (that's me holding it in the pictures). The general consensus of the four guys in our group was, "Wow! When can I get one?! Wait, how much?! For a Kel-Tec?! If it said Remington, I'd buy it in a second, but Kel-Tec needs to put just a little bit more effort into their QC."

If the production is up to par with the prototype, I think they are bringing in a new era. The action was slick, and the fit and finish were great. The handling was great, due mostly to the bullpup design. The sling loops and small rail on the bottom of the pump are great features. A good HD shotgun REQUIRES a light, and they accommodate that handily, without having to add additional accessories. Full length rail on the top: win.

Time will tell about the quality of the production models...

JShirley
January 23, 2011, 11:21 PM
Did you notice how sharp the slide release button was? I'm actually more excited by the RMR-30.

Lou McGopher
January 23, 2011, 11:24 PM
two words--bayonet lug

Why just one?

Double magazine tubes... Double bayonets!

G.A.Pster
January 24, 2011, 01:49 AM
Can it alternate feeding between both magazines like the NeoStead 2000, or can you only use one at a time?

TechBrute
January 24, 2011, 09:19 AM
JShirley, yeah, that was a strange design for that slide release button. I think a wide paddle would have served better.

I don't know why you'd take a short, fast handling bullpup and hang an extra foot of bayonet on the front. This isn't WWI and we aren't in the trenches.

JShirley
January 24, 2011, 10:12 AM
I know folks are excited to have a shotgun with a legal barrel that's this short, but I think I'd really like the muzzle a few inches further away. I'd be okay with trading a very minor bit of close-quarters maneuverability for another 4" of barrel.

Aftermath
January 24, 2011, 02:24 PM
I know folks are excited to have a shotgun with a legal barrel that's this short, but I think I'd really like the muzzle a few inches further away. I'd be okay with trading a very minor bit of close-quarters maneuverability for another 4" of barrel.

I'm one of the guys that is excited for an OAL this low :)

However I believe there are some other countries that need the barrel a few inches longer for it to be sold, perhaps they will offer different barrel lengths at some point?

Justin
January 24, 2011, 02:28 PM
Caleb is right. (http://gunnuts.net/2011/01/20/kel-tec-ksg-shotgun-video/) The lack of trigger reset is a deal killer.

armoredman
January 24, 2011, 02:53 PM
OK, fix trigger reset, and JShirley, how about an inch extra of muzzle brake/flash hider? That might be an interesting option. No fun for the poeple standing next to you at the range, though...
I wish for three things, fix these mior issues, actually MAKE the thing, and drop that price by half. While I'm at it, I'd like a pony, too.:p
This would be an interesting LEO firearm, especially in prison, with very tight corners. Many ideas come to the mind....

TechBrute
January 24, 2011, 03:05 PM
Justin, I agree, but I can't possibly imagine that they would actually release a gun that doesn't reset automatically... but, if they did, I completely agree that it's a deal breaker...

klw
January 24, 2011, 03:22 PM
Not familiar with Kel-Tec. How good is their reputation?

TechBrute
January 24, 2011, 03:28 PM
klw, I can only speak for myself. I've always thought they had innovative products, but their execution has come up short. It's not that their guns are of poor quality, it's the last 5-10% that comes up short, plastic flashing, gritty triggers, etc. If they just put a little bit more effort into the QC, they'd be up there...

Kentuckiana rifleman
January 25, 2011, 12:21 AM
This is my first post so here goes But has anybody seen a video or demonstration on that thing being field stripped? It has a coolness factor of 12 out of 10. But it looks like it would be hard to take apart, and darn near impossible to change some of the smaller parts.

JShirley
January 25, 2011, 12:44 AM
Hi, KR, welcome to The High Road.

No, we were moving too fast to watch it being disassembled.

how about an inch extra of muzzle brake/flash hider?

NO, that would be very not-good. I want the extra barrel to reduce blast a little more (muzzle brake would increase blast), and get the muzzle further away from my support/pump hand.

John

OcelotZ3
January 25, 2011, 12:45 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNM9_q5RtYE

gym
January 25, 2011, 10:25 AM
It would be cooler in auto though. But if the price drops I might consider one. I can't justify more than $400-500.00, for an HD shotgun. Unless I was a LEO, but to sit in the closet, it's too much. And the triggere reset, is a deal breaker, I just saw that. Kel tek should know better than to try bringing in a new product at such a high price point in this economy.

Gaiudo
January 25, 2011, 10:41 AM
but to sit in the closet, it's too much

Honestly, not sure how many domestic firearms do much more than that.

Trigger reset is a huge no-go. And they claim it's a 'safety feature'?? WTH?

Kentuckiana rifleman
January 25, 2011, 05:52 PM
Pass or Fail, this thing is going to change the face of shotguns forever. I'm betting that Remington, Mossberg, Benelli, and Beretta (heck, maybe even Savage) are going to take a long hard look at this.

CoRoMo
January 25, 2011, 06:12 PM
...they claim it's a 'safety feature'...
That safety feature is preventing the unintended purchase of their product.

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