Benelli Snob Considering 870...


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Skunkabilly
January 30, 2003, 01:18 AM
I loves my Benelli, but might go 870 for the following reasons:

1. 870, easier to load weak hand without the springs and other moving gizmos chopping your finger off.
2. Pistol grip stock = easier to hold one handed while loading. Can't do with a post-ban Benelli, legally. A legal and strength issue, but an issue for me nonetheless.
3. Surefire dedicated fore-end. I like the Nova, but no light attachment for it and I don't like wires on the gun. Nova only has 4 shot saddle.

Your thoughts?

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HS/LD
January 30, 2003, 02:08 AM
Yep try the Winchester Defender too.

I tried both and liked the defender! (I gotta get in a say this before Dave McC gets here...:) )

Degined by FN maker of famous MILITARY TACTICAL gear the world over. I am biased I was issued the FN FAL in the service.


If you look on the FN Herstal website you will see the FN Police/Military shotgun is the same as the Winchester Defender.

Pumps are great coz they are reliable and easy to use.

I am not sure I would put a pistol grip on one.... but that is a personal thing. Its not right for a man to judge anothers pistol grip. :scrutiny:

Oh and pump guns are cheap I pucked up my Defender for $239 and I have put several thousand shells through it in a matter of 3-4 months.

The 870 is an absolutely superb shotgun! It is just that the Win Defender is better.

HS/LD

Duke of Lawnchair
January 30, 2003, 02:27 AM
It is just that the Win Defender is better.

You just stirred the hornets nest. :D

I do agree with you HS/LD, the 1300 Defender is a great shotgun and is definately worth a second look when purchasing a pump gun.

Nightcrawler
January 30, 2003, 04:24 AM
I don't know about in California, but in Free America you can have a pistol grip stock (not a pistol grip only, I don't think) on a semiauto shotgun, you just have to limit the magazine tube to five rounds.

9x19mm
January 30, 2003, 05:27 AM
I tried both and liked the defender! (I gotta get in a say this before Dave McC gets here..)

:D :D :D

Dave McCracken
January 30, 2003, 06:22 AM
HS, put 8-10K rounds through that Defender in the next 40 years and get back to me about its durability and reliability. Thanks...

Both the Defender and that Italian job are decent shotguns. The 870's the standard by which all other pumps are judged.

Skunk, I can't comment on loading the Nova, but nothing seems easier to me than topping off an 870.

As for stocks with PGs, I see neither much advantage nor handicap to them. Different strokes...

ruger357
January 30, 2003, 07:37 AM
Easier to break down and clean too.:D

Skunkabilly
January 30, 2003, 12:06 PM
I don't like the looks of the pistol grip, but I don't have much upper body strength, and holding the shotty one handed downrange while loading with my left paw trying not to get it chopped off in my Benelli's carrier is a chore for me.

My instructor says shotgun fights don't last much longer than 2 rounds, but in transporting an arm, it's nice to be able to load fast if I run into trouble and happen to have a few shells handy, since I can't have it loaded.

9x19mm
January 30, 2003, 12:24 PM
If you like the SG and the price is right, I say go for it. That said, I would buy two (2) 870s at the US price ;)

Andrew Wyatt
January 30, 2003, 01:31 PM
mossies are worth a look, too.


you can't put a PG on them effectively because of the tang safety, but they're easier to load in my opinion than an 870, and they're tactical, since you can get them in black.

Dave McCracken
January 30, 2003, 04:25 PM
Maybe 9X19 has it right....

It's probably impossible to buy a shotgun "Better" than the 870. You may find one almost as good, and that's a lot of gun.

You can also pay a whole lot more for a shotgun. But, for the price of a Benelli, you could buy an 870 that'll feed and protect your family for generations AND lots of ammo.

BA/UU/R....

M. Jager
January 30, 2003, 09:35 PM
HS.
If you would have said m12 and not 1300 I wouldn't disagree (although I wouldn't agree with you). The 1300 is a good shotgun but I wouldn't place a bet that it could outlast an 870. IMO, the only guns capable of that would be a model 12, ithaca 37, and maybe, its got alot of years to prove its worth, a nova and I wouldn't bet on any of those being able to do, the odds just ain't in your favor. Momma may have raised a stupid child but not that stupid. Now I don't have any 870 nor a desire to have one but I respect them for one reason: the damn things never die. Buy whatever shotty you like, shoot it till it breaks then fix it or buy another. To anyone wanting to bet the long livety of their pump/auto against an 870, before you lose the bet I have a nice chunck of real estate I'll sell real cheap...........;)

Correia
January 31, 2003, 02:38 PM
Skunk, if you lack the upper body strength to load with your left hand, hold the gun by the fore arm with your left and use your right hand to load shells into the tube. This can be done remarkably fast.

Or hit the weight stack. You want to be ultimately tactical? You need to be able to bench press your body weight. :p

Watch the master 3 gunners load sometime. They can grasp four shells at once and load them all in under 1.5 seconds. No joke.

Duke of Lawnchair
January 31, 2003, 02:53 PM
What Correia said!

Skunkabilly
January 31, 2003, 02:59 PM
I figured out how to load 3 shells at a time with my right paw while holding the shotty with my left.

At skul, I was taught to load w/ weak hand to be able to ready to fire if I see trouble.

Dave McCracken
February 1, 2003, 07:24 AM
Skunk,check the thread on Crisis Management Reloading on the Floater at the top of this forum for some ideas and techniques.

Also, in recognition of our widely varying physiques, I'm going to do a bit of research on physical conditioning for shotgunners. I'll post a thread when it's ready.

And Corriea, your assistance on that will be appreciated. I know you're a serious competitor and know much about the subject....

Guyon
February 1, 2003, 09:44 AM
No pistol grips for me, please. I'd work out before I'd add a pistol grip.

As for lights, I don't care too much for wires on guns either. A cheaper alternative than the Surefire system is the ITI M-Series with the ITI (not the Streamlight) bracket. It's about half the price of the Surefire and, when clamped onto your mag extension, puts the light controls (permanent on and pulse on) just off the fore end and at your fingertips. You can check them out here: http://www.insightlights.com/ A M-Series light would work on your Benelli. Check out the attached pic:

Sir Galahad
February 1, 2003, 10:27 PM
Another vote for the 1300. My shotgun doesn't need to last forever. It just needs to last as long as I'm alive.:D
That said, the 1300 Defender is one of the fastest pumps there is, if not THE fastest. It practically pumps itself. I have two. A wood stocked and synth stocked. I have the wood stocked for formal occassions where a little class is needed. The synth for a little of mysterious noir ambience. But I leave them be. I don't like anything hanging off a weapon. A sling, at the most.

But I don't understand the question. How does a pistol grip aid loading fast? Maybe it's a Benelli thing. My Defenders I just flip upside down for a full charge. Or just as is on shoulder for topping off the tank. Never needs to leave my hand. I can load it left or right handed. Don't need a pistol grip. In fact, I fail to see how a pistol grip can be faster. If you practice with what you've got, you'll learn how. Proficiency with the weapon you have is best than going to something new.

9mmMike
February 1, 2003, 10:58 PM
At skul, I was taught to load w/ weak hand to be able to ready to fire if I see trouble.

They taught this at the school I attended as well. I thought it was interesting but not necessary. Holding an 870 with a 20" barrel and mag extension that is only down a round or two really kills my wrist.
A light weight Mossy or an 18" (or shorter) maybe but not an all steel 870. I figure if I keep the muzzle on target, I can reload/top off with my strong hand while holding the bulk of the SG's weight at the pump handle and the butt against my shoulder. I can easily slip a couple rounds from the sidesaddle while still keeping my stong hand close enough to the trigger to bring 'er into action quickly. Yeah I have to take my finger off the trigger to do this but it does not break my wrist either.
Mike

Sir Galahad
February 1, 2003, 11:25 PM
I remember a saying that the guy with a .22 single shot that is highly proficient with that weapon will prevail over a guy with a high-tech "assault" rifle who never or rarely shoots it. An extreme example, but there is merit. The winner of survival situations is skill plus will to live. One weapon with lots of experiece behind that weapon is what makes that weapon deadly. I would say that finding your weapons weak points and then developing your own personal methods to compensate are 100% better than finding a new weapon with new weak points. Don't go 100% by what "experts" say; they're talking about their own skills. Use them as a bellweather or reference point and then find and then hone your own skills. Train with the weapon you have and shoot it often. Soon, you'll know that weapon like you know yourself. Most importantly, shoot often for pleasure. It's often that you learn the most when shooting for pleasure because you're not pressuring yourself to perform. I know exactly what my 1300s will and will not do, why, when, and how. The best thing to do is what Dave McC here has said before: buy lots of ammo and practice, practice, practice.

Correia
February 2, 2003, 11:38 PM
School is great and all, don't take what I'm about to say wrong. And I agree, loading with your left is superior IF you can do it good. If you don't have the wrist or upper body strength however you need to adapt to what works not what is "correct".

Do whatever takes you out of the fight in less time. If you can do it right handed faster, do it. Just be prepared to drop that shell and grab that trigger if you need too. Keep your head up no matter what.

But more than anything you have to adapt your technique to fit you. I do one thing weird, and I disagree with some of our best experts here about it, I never load through the ejection port. I always load through the tube then pump. No real reason why, that is just how I do it, and if I try to switch to throwing one in the port under time pressure I usually manage to screw it up. :) I just adapt to what works for me personally.

School doctrine is kinda like Weaver vs. Iscocoles. Neither one was given to us on stone tablets by God. What works for you?

I will second the opinion that you should read the Crisis reloading thread. Lots of good opinions on there.

And Dave, I don't know about Serious. :p Usually I'm the comic relief shooter in my squad.

Robby from Long Island
February 4, 2003, 12:52 PM
I finally ordered a pump shotgun for myself last weekend and it should be in this Friday. A Winchester Defender 1300 minus PG with 8 shot capacity.

For years whenever I thought about a pump, just figured it would be an 870 as I still think it's probably the best out there, but in the last year or two have been hearing a lot of negative things about Remington products. Whether they're true or not is another matter, but when handling the two of them side by side the other day, have to admit liked the 1300 better.

Really don't know much about pump SG's as I never had one, but can't help but think either the 870 or the 1300 will do the job if you take care of them and practice, practice, etc...............

Of course, I can always fall back on my 10 year old Benelli M1 Super 90 Tactical.:D

Safe shooting.

El Tejon
February 4, 2003, 01:10 PM
Skunk, another vote for the weight issue as a consideration. Some people think that the weight of the weapon is a non-factor. This may be true if it only rides in the trunk on the way to the range. You will carry and manipulate the weapon far more than just stand there on a range firing line and spew pellets down range.

Work out with the weapon. Militree presses, lat raises, reverse curls and curls, sit ups with it and running with it all have helped me (I need it as I was in the rear with the gear and never served with SEEL Team 37.5 as did so many others in my gun club).

Whatever you decide buy multiple copies and skip the Korean bar-b-q.:D

Skunkabilly
February 4, 2003, 01:56 PM
Work out with the weapon. Militree presses, lat raises, reverse curls and curls, sit ups with it and running with it all have helped me (I need it as I was in the rear with the gear and never served with SEEL Team 37.5 as did so many others in my gun club).

Are you being fecetious? :confused:

Whatever you decide buy multiple copies and skip the Korean bar-b-q.

The Korean barbecue is 1/3-1/4 the price in Korea!!! I wanna go back i wanna go back i wanna go back :(

I've had Korean only once since I got back :( Too expensive.

El Tejon
February 4, 2003, 04:12 PM
Skunk, no, telling it straight, I am the only person on the Errornet not to have been a member of SEEL Team 37.5.

Sir Galahad
February 4, 2003, 07:56 PM
Robby, you're going to LOVE that 1300! If you liked the way it handled, you're going to LOVE the way it shoots! I'm the 1300 Preacher ever since I first got me one some time back. I've got me two now. It's the fastest pump around. I call it the "semi-auto pump" it's so fast!

HS/LD
February 4, 2003, 09:40 PM
This came up somewhere else another thread on here but this really smells like a Skunk weapon:

FN TACTICAL Police/Military Shotgun (http://www.fnhusa.com/contents/sg_tactical.htm)


Regards,
HS/LD

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