Stirr'n the pot, "reddot" or "heads-up" sights, any good in "real" sit


December 27, 2002, 12:17 PM
I held an Elbit Falcon in my hands and thought
"Hey, this is really pretty cool" and being
just a tiny bit familiar with Elbit Computers,
figgured it was as well made as it appears
to be.

Myself, I always make judgement calls based
on any one of a million or so SHTF scenarios
involving my neck of the woods, and in my
neck of the woods, where wet, sloppy snow,
mud, fog, rain, just about any kind of weather
other than the weather of the home of the
Elbit Falcon occurs.

Now, folks from tfl have accused me of
being one of those dinosaurs who think
that the M1911 was the best *pistol* (yes
a pistol, there is no such thing as a
bloody handgun) ever concieved, and anything
that doesn't have a wooden stock and shoot
30 cal or better is unamerican. And they wouldn't
be far from the mark.

However, I like to think that I am open to
new ideas, if they are any good. :)

And in my mind, yeah, nice spring day,
maybe these reddot things like this
are pretty cool, mutiple targets, close
range, critical time factor :)

However, in my other mind, I see
mud, rain, wet snow, heck even
a nasty cold humid day, making my little
gizmo useless unless it has a
quick-detachable mount so I can
toss it aside and get to my iron sights
right away.

What is the reality with these things?

Thanks in advance.

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Oleg Volk
December 27, 2002, 01:38 PM
I never liked optics or batteries for combat. That said, I now have a red dot on my primary social rifle. The reason is that red dot proved far superior to iron sights or scopes in my use (plinking, small game hunting). It gained me speed and precision.

The key to my decision to use it was that my red dot is co-witnessed with iron sights, so if I lack the time to turn on the red dot or the sight is damaged, I can use irons without taking the time to troubleshoot the fancy sight. Further, I've been doing more pointshooting with a rifle and can reliably hit a milk jug out to about 15m with the first shot and out to 25m by observing impacts and correcting.

December 27, 2002, 02:20 PM
Well the Aimpoint is good for a no bs couple thousand hours at the highest settings. Ie you could turn it on and still not be inclined to worry for a couple of weeks. Then there is always the trijicon although I am not fond of their refles and the dots appear dim to me.

December 27, 2002, 02:29 PM
Our spec ops boys have the electronic sights on their rifles and have fielded them for some time now. Of course they also have backup iron sights on their weapons in case of battery failure.

ACOG and Reflex series sights provide a bit more assurance for those worried about barrery failure. The tritium/fiber optic combination alway stays powered.

When it comes to the standard line units the iron sights are still the norm. Uncomplicated and extremely reliable. Almost idiot proof. That can't be said for Aimpoints and other red dot sights. When I was in Artillery we literally threw our M16s into the gun in our haste to evacuate positions and move to a new position. A electronic sight would never survive that abuse.

Good Shooting

Bartholomew Roberts
December 27, 2002, 03:30 PM
I've never been a fan of optics myself. My first experience was with a cheap Tasco 4x on my .22 and it scarred me for life. I figured all optics must randomly shift zero if you look sideways at them.

I now have a TA11 ACOG sitting on my AR15 and I am very, very pleased with the purchase. Immediate improvements to accuracy and slower improvements to speed (when you have the ability to choose exactly where in the target you are going to place your shot, it is hard for me to not place it all nice and pretty. That is more of an operator/training issue than an equipment one though).

I also keep iron sights though, just in case. Currently I have the TA11 in the carry handle (it was designed to go there so no extra parallax issues) so iron sights are immediately available by lowering my head a bit. However, the TA11 has been reliable enough that I am going to move it to the flattop where iron sights will be less available (but still present).

December 27, 2002, 07:02 PM
In bad weather, a red-dot may not be unusable. It can function as an occluded-eye sight, if it has no magnification and no parallax. Just a second-hand comment from a guy on another board (respected participant) who related doing it when his scope was useless in the rain. I've never tried it. (But I have one, just in case).

December 27, 2002, 07:56 PM
We had a Simmons red dot sight on a Smith 22A for a while. As long as the sight worked, I found it much easier to get hits with (Good). But, the thing broke twice on it, and Simmons sent us a new one(Bad). Haven't put it back on, I doubt it will ever go back on the gun. If backup irons were available, I would think it a good thing to put on a dot sight.

Jeff White
December 27, 2002, 10:34 PM
A good parallax free red dot sight is a boon to fast accurate shooting. The Falcon is a great sight, but becoming almost unobtainable in this country. I don't think they are in production any more.

The U.S. Army issues the Aimpoint Comp M to the Infantry. It's known as the M68 CCO (Close Combat Optic) in it's military guise. All of the Infantry will get it, not just the Special Operations Forces. It's rugged and holds up in all weather conditions. The Special Operations community is using a couple versions of the EO Tech along with the Aimpoint.

Oleg is right about co-witnessing the iron sights. If you do that and your red dot fails you are still in the fight.

Trapshooter is right about using the sight as an occluded eye gunsight. You must have binocular vision for this to work (as with any OEG). I have done just that with my Aimpoint.

I have heard many people say that they don't like looking through a tube with no magnification. You don't need to look through the tube. Just keep both eyes open, bring the weapon up so that the sight is in your field of vision and the dot will appear on your target. If you've zeroed it right, you'll hit.

Red dots are here to stay. The new Aimpoints have a much improved battery life over the old ones and they were nothing to sneeze at.



December 27, 2002, 10:59 PM
All of the Infantry will get it, not just the Special Operations Forces.

Somehow I believe that if they did a limited fielding with line troops they would change their minds. We are talking about issuing this site to guys with a GT score just slightly higher than their pant waist size.

I'm curious as to what cost they will be getting the sights as also.

I'm betting there will be a lot of "statment of charges" issued for damaged optics. I believe that was the term.:D

Good Shooting

Jeff White
December 27, 2002, 11:14 PM
They have been fielded for about 3 years now. One of the changes made to the Comp2 series was a one piece body. It seems GIs being GIs were taking the older models apart. They aren't all that fragile.

Heck, they even had them in Infantry OSUT last spring when my son went through. The qualified with them on the M16A4s they had there at Sand Hill.

About having an IQ just higher then my pants size, I guess those inches I put on since age 40 must be helping :D

Jeff - 11B 1974-1996 13B 1996-present I was scared to death when they converted us from Infantry to Artillery...then I found out that you have to be a lot smarter to be a grunt then a cannon cocker. But in reality, it's an apples and oranges comparison...Maneuver (Infantry, Armor) is an art...Artillery is a science. :cool:

December 27, 2002, 11:54 PM
It seems GIs being GIs were taking the older models apart.

They were probably cleaning them for a Command Inspection.:D

Dang..things never cease to amaze me. The Army is really progressing. I must be getting old. When I went through OSUT in 87 we still had M16A1s.

Good Shooting

Jeff White
December 28, 2002, 12:02 AM
My son's unit 2/58 IN was the first in ITB to get the M16A4s. They went through ARM twice, once with irons and once with CCOs (Aimpoints).

They were probably cleaning them for a Command Inspection. :D

No doubt...of course you know what they say about grunts...give then a 1 foot square block of stainless steel and in 24 hours they'll break it or lose it :D

Which is exactly why I'm so impressed with the Aimpoint. If it can stand up to the abuse it gets by the troops, it can certainly hold up to civilian use.


December 28, 2002, 12:27 AM
and thanks to all folks who are fleshing it out. As a recent AR-15 (16" flat head w/detachable handle) owner and a very late starter in modern rifleware I am trying to adapt to this "cheek, nose, and peep" world. And with older eyes, I'm looking at the red dot for aid and comfort.

My original plan was to use an onhand 4x32var, but lately I'm leaning to a red dot on the carry handle in sort of a starter price range. I've read a lot on various web sites - Trijicon, Aimpoint and the like, and of course TFL/AR15 and others.

I'd appreciate any recommendations you might want to suggest.

Thanks in advance.


BTW - I was just up to and read this:To our valued customers:

The Tasco® trade name has been acquired by Bushnell Performance Optics.There is some info on repairs while the transition is made.

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