What's wrong with releasing the slide on an empty chamber?


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mellow
December 27, 2002, 05:17 PM
I know it has something to do with guns that have trigger jobs. I have a Les Baer TRS and a Wilson KZ-45.

The reason I'm asking is because I have a couple dummy rounds that I can't disassemble with my intertia bullet puller. These rounds have no powder inside nor do they have a primer. I was thinking about using them as practice rounds, but wasn't sure if it's safe to slam the slide closed on them. The only reason why I see this might not be able to be done with my "dummy" round is that it has nothing there to substitute the primer.

Is it safe?

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Mal H
December 27, 2002, 06:08 PM
It's perfectly "safe", but it is not good for the pistol. Most pistols are designed to strip a cartridge from the mag as it slams shut. Having a cartridge in the chamber puts undue stress on the extractor. Probably won't break immediately, but that is the right thing to do if you want it to break eventually. OTOH, having the brass absorb some of the shock is good for the slide, but the extractor problem outweighs that point. Also, you really won't have the equivalent of snapcaps if that is your reason for the dummy rounds. Snapcaps are designed to prevent damage to the firing pin, and the dummies won't do that.

Oh, and I'll move this to Handguns.

Navy joe
December 27, 2002, 06:35 PM
Mal covered what's wrong with what you are doing. In your situation let the dummies feed from the mag and dryfire away, I haven't hurt a 1911 pin yet by firing without a snapcap. Dropping the round in the chamber and then dropping the slide is definitely bad for your extractor. Maybe not so much as with your KZ-45, but still not the best plan.

For what you asked about an *empty* chamber; the reason is releasing the slide on an empty gun that's not stripping a round from the mag lets the slide slam into battery with considerable force. On guns with nice triggers the jar can damage sear to hammer mating surfaces. When dropping the slide on an empty gun, ride it forward.

mellow
December 27, 2002, 06:38 PM
IIRC, it doesn't matter how many times I dryfire my 1911 and glocks, so it wouldn't make a difference whether or not I have a primer substitute there, right??

I'm wanting to use these "dummy rounds" less for dry fire practice, more for magazine reloading practice. I would be closing the slide with the magazine in, loaded with the dummy round.

Mal, I'm not sure if I understand your post. It's unsafe to close the slide on my "dummy round" because it'll put undue stress on the extractor?

What's the reason behind the rule that you're not suppose to close your slide on an empty chamber?

Sorry, I'm just a little slow. :p

Jim V
December 27, 2002, 06:54 PM
I believe he thought that you were chambering the round by hand and then "dropping" the slide by releasing the slidestop. That causes abnormal stress on the extractor, they are not designed to work that way. Closing the slide on a magazine of dummy rounds duplicates the action of firing the pistol and is does not cause the stress on the extractor.

If you have your pistol's slide locked back and release it on an empty chamber, it hits with more force that it would if the slide were picking up a round from the magazine. The chambering of a round cushions the slide going home.

Dry firing either the 1911 or the Glocks w/o a snapcap will not damage the pistols.

I hope this helps.

mellow
December 27, 2002, 08:10 PM
Thanks guys. Eggz-Aktly what I was looking for. :D

Mal H
December 27, 2002, 08:21 PM
Jim's right. Your original post sounded to me like you were going to chamber a dummy and then drop the slide. Loading a mag with dummies and operating the slide is not a problem. (On the safety side, please be sure they are all dummies and don't have any live ammo in sight.)

Bergeron
December 27, 2002, 08:44 PM
Does anyone know how much the chambering of a round "cushions" the slide going foward?

Looking at it from a mechanics standpoint, I would consider the chambering of round to be a non-deforming collision where both objects stick together, therefore

mass_1*velocity_1 + mass_2*velocity_2=mass_(1+2)*velocity_3

Let mass_1 be the slide, mass_2 be the round, and let
mass_(1+2) be the slide and the round.

Okay, now let's assume that a loaded round of .45 weighs twice as much as the bullet.(I know that this is a little high, but I don't have a precise way of measuring. If anyone knows, post it, and I will recalculate.) This is 2*230gr., or 2*14.9g (grains converted to grams).


mass_2 = 29.8g

The weight of a 5", .45 slide is 12.8 oz. (reference to www.sviguns.com/catalog2001/)

There are 28.3495 grams in an ounce(reference to http://www.metrication.com/), so

12.8 oz = 12.8*28.3495g
12.8 oz = 363g

mass_1 = 363g

velocity_1 is the velocity of the slide before chambering, I don't know it, so I'll just call it v_i

velocity_1 = v_i

velocity_2 is the velocity of the round of ammo, zero

velocity_2 = 0

velocity_(1+2) is the velocity of the slide and ammo after chambering, I don't know it, so I'll call it v_f

velocity_(1+2) = v_f

Now subsituting into the equation

mass_1*velocity_1 + mass_2*velocity_2=mass_(1+2)*velocity_3

yields

363g*v_i + 29.8g*0 = (363g + 29.8g)*v_f

reducing,

363g*v_i = 393gv_f

deviding both sides by 393g yields

0.924*v_i = v_f

So that means that the final velocity of a five inch .45 round of ammo is slowed by about 10% by picking up a round of ball ammo. It seems to me that you could increase the slide velocity by a larger amount by simply shooting hotter ammo than ball, or by reducing the weight of the spring. I have never heard of shooting hotter ammo or reducing the weight of the spring to cause damage that is attributed to slamming the slide on an empty chamber.

Also, if you consider the closing of the slide to be a collision on the internal parts, then it is appropriate to think in terms of momentum, by conservation of momentum and the equation above, same momentum hits the internals wether or not a round was chambered

Kinetic energy of the slide-ammo has decreased, if ya'll want, I can figure out by how much the kinetic energy of the slide-ammo body decreases when you chamber a round.

But based on these calculations, I don't see how the round of ammo would be able to slow the slide down enough to prevent battering of internal parts. I'm willing to be conviced however, so please review the calculations and help me find better data to calculate with!

Shmackey
December 27, 2002, 08:54 PM
It seems to me that you could increase the slide velocity by a larger amount by simply shooting hotter ammo than ball, or by reducing the weight of the spring.

I think you're looking at the movement of the slide toward the rear (shooter), as opposed to the movement of the slide into battery.

Bergeron
December 27, 2002, 09:04 PM
Looking at your statement, I agree that the ammo should not affect foward slide velocity(but I do not know this for certain), but the weight of the spring sure will.

Lighter spring = slower foward velocity
Heavier spring = faster foward velocity

Also, will a 10% reduction in foward slide velocity really be the difference between a ruined trigger job?

If you want, I can find foward slide velocities for 16, 18.5, and 20 pound springs. I know that guns with trigger jobs have at least these three weights. We can see if a 10% change in slide velocity from one spring to another exists. What do you think?

eap
December 27, 2002, 09:14 PM
a glock armorer told me it's ok to drop the slide on an empty chamber.

Gewehr98
December 27, 2002, 09:53 PM
Especially if you have a finely honed sear/hammer/disconnector system. I understand if you have a lightweight aluminum or carbon fiber trigger, the bounce of the trigger when the slide is dropped on an empty chamber can make things go South even more quickly.

The extractor on the 1911 is much like the extractor on a Mauser, Springfield, Ruger, or pre-'64 Winchester Model 70. It's designed to ride over the cartridge rim as it's being picked up from the magazine. Trying to snap it over a chambered round can cause trouble, as anyone who's tried the same in a Mauser can attest. :(

Shmackey
December 27, 2002, 10:04 PM
Looking at your statement, I agree that the ammo should not affect foward slide velocity(but I do not know this for certain), but the weight of the spring sure will.

Lighter spring = slower foward velocity
Heavier spring = faster foward velocity


Right. But in your previous post, you said that a lighter spring will increase the velocity.

I'm just being a pain though; I know what you mean now that you clarified.

All that aside, I am fairly sure that plopping a round in the chamber by hand and then dropping the slide is bad. Your internal extractor (which derives its springiness from nothing more than its bend) will get angry. I'm not so sure that dropping the slide on an empty chamber is bad, but I don't do it. And I've been indoctrinated enough to know that it's a newbie error. It's like using your forearm instead of a napkin at a nice restaurant--you won't break your arm, but come on!

Bergeron
December 28, 2002, 12:07 AM
Right. But in your previous post, you said that a lighter spring will increase the velocity.

Yeah, I was thinking about rearward slide velocity, and my statement was incorrect about foward slide velocity

Thanks for pointing that out in your previous post. Made me think about it and realize that you were right, it's only gonna be the spring weight that gonna matter on foward slide velocity.

Thanks.

Bergeron
December 28, 2002, 12:12 AM
And now I have a question. I really want to look at the different spring weights like I mentioned in my earlier post.

I don't have a 1911, so I'm going to need some help on this. How much does the spring on a 5" 1911 compress and what is its initial length?

When the "weight" of a spring is mentioned, is its spring constant actually being referred to? i.e., does an 18lb spring have an 18lb per inch?/foot?/whatever? spring constant?

Shmackey
December 28, 2002, 12:51 AM
I'd bet dollars to donuts that they're not thinking about spring constants or anything formulaic.

More likely that a pillowcase full of them weighs 18 pounds.

Bergeron
December 28, 2002, 01:17 AM
LMAO, Yeah, you're probably right!

But I did get an inspiration: I'll email Wolff, they've gotta be able to tell me something.

Mike Irwin
December 28, 2002, 02:50 AM
I asked Mac Scott, of Scott McDougal gunsmithing this very question some years ago.

Without going into a long drawn out recounting of his reply, most of which I don't recall anyway, I'll stick with his advice -- don't let the slide slam home on an empty chamber. It can hurt the gun.

I figure this man knows. He's built probably a couple metric tons of highly tuned 1911s.

Wildalaska
December 28, 2002, 03:08 AM
Mr. McDougal has the same opinion as 99% of the custom gunsmiths out there....

F=ma
December 28, 2002, 05:09 PM
...Remember to include the frictional force caused by the mag spring against the lips/carrier/next round. If you really wanted to get picky, you could also include the "cushioning" collision of the round on the feed ramp.
(Now what's the angle of that ramp? :D )

Bergeron
December 28, 2002, 06:33 PM
Yeah, you're right, but I don't think that those details will affect my answer as much as getting better measurements.

Besides, I for sure don't have equipment to measure either of those.

Would be more interesting, but I don't think that the answer would be much more accurate.

HS/LD
December 28, 2002, 07:00 PM
There is NOTHING wrong with dropping the slide on an empty chamber!

It is am old myth.

If your handgun will be screwed up by dropping the slide on an empty I suggest you buy another handgun.

IMHO:D

HS/LD

Gunhead
December 28, 2002, 07:04 PM
What wrong? Nothing, if you buy a real pistol, not something else... ;)

Blackhawk
December 28, 2002, 07:32 PM
I tune my extractors so they will swing to allow the slide to slam home on a casing in the chamber so the extractor can catch the rim to extract it when the slide's pulled back.

That involves reshaping the extractor claw so it meets the rim with a ramped surface instead of a surface parallel to the back of the casing.

Why? There are some jams with some guns that result in the just fired casing ending up back in the chamber. They can be caused from any number of variable situations involving lube, heat, angle of the muzzle during firing, etc., and the jams cannot be predicted. But I KNOW they happen!

They're not "quick" to clear because you have to (1) figure out what happened, (2) lock the slide open, and (3) point the muzzle up and possibly "help" the spent casing fall out. Bottom line is that those jams put your gun out of commission for MANY seconds since even if you KNOW what's going on, clearing is very awkward.

Extractors are cheap, and the modification doesn't affect anything strength wise. I certainly don't want to have an experience with this type of jam in a SD social situation.

To test the modified extractors, I manually insert a casing and slowly let the slide close with the extractor spring exerting enough pressure that the recoil spring can't overcome it. A bit of a bump on t he back of the slide causes the extractor to ride over the rim and lock shut. Then I test it a few dozen times letting the slide slam home.

IMO, the modification makes the pistol more reliable because it greatly lessens the chances of the extractor claw breaking if it should slam home on a still chambered casing.

Wildalaska
December 28, 2002, 08:12 PM
You guys dropping that slide sure make gunsmiths happy :)

Got sights on the side of the slide too do you....???

On the extractor mod...thats how they are supposed to be tuned...but it is for situations where closing on a chambered round is unavoidable. Doing it deliberatly is poor and improper technique.

bad_dad_brad
December 28, 2002, 08:22 PM
Dropping the slide on an empty chamber is nothing like the violence of shooting a round and re-chambering. An old myth for sure.

Anyway, no problems with Glocks.

Regardless, I seem to baby my guns and let the slide down easy. Just me.

Blackhawk
December 29, 2002, 11:15 AM
On the extractor mod...thats how they are supposed to be tuned...but it is for situations where closing on a chambered round is unavoidable. Doing it deliberatly is poor and improper technique. Agree, agree, and agree! :D

faustulus
December 29, 2002, 03:54 PM
Take the weather stripping out of your car's door. Now would you slam the door on your car? If not why?

Mike Irwin
December 29, 2002, 04:16 PM
"Dropping the slide on an empty chamber is nothing like the violence of shooting a round and re-chambering. An old myth for sure."

COMPLETELY different scenario, Brad!

That was also covered in Mac's reply to me.

When you're shooting the gun, your finger is holding the trigger back as the action cycles. That keeps parts such as the sear from lashing against each other. I sincerely doubt if anyone on this planet can release the trigger during recoil faster than the action cycles.

Releasing the slide on an empty chamber is normally done with the finger off the trigger, and this allows parts to lash against each other.

For you, and others, who believe that this is an old myth, let me ask you this...

Why do the vast majority of the gunsmiths who built highly tuned 1911s say DO NOT RELEASE THE SLIDE ON AN EMPTY CHAMBER!

Are you and others saying that these people, whom we ask to build these guns in the first place, don't know what they're talking about?

Then why are we asking these people to build guns like this in the first place? Why are we trusting our guns with people who obviously don't know about the subject, but who just repeat old myths to us?

Seems to me that kind of reasoning is a HUGE cognative disconnect for you, or anyone, to walk into a gunshop and say...

"Yes, I'm going to give you a LOT of money to do an action job on my gun, and I want the BEST trigger pull possible, but I'm not going to listen to your recommendations on how to treat it after it's done because you don't know what the hell you're talking about..."

That sort of attitude is a real head scratcher...

But, do with your 1911 what you want.

In fact, I recomment REGULARLY flooring the gas on your car and popping the clutch from a standstill.

Everyone knows that won't hurt your car. It's just a myth.

You might also try driving with your foot on the brakes. That won't cause any wear and tear or problems. Just another myth. :D

F=ma
December 29, 2002, 05:53 PM
"Remember that a finely tuned sear has an engagement surface that is only about .009" to .010" wide, and, being this thin, is very easily damaged. It's both practical and wise to hold the trigger back (holding the sear out of the way) whenever the slide is cycled for any reason. You automatically do this when firing the pistol."
- Jerry Kuhnhausen, The Colt .45 Automatic

Along with Mike, I think it is a matter of prudence. I also, however, change the oil in my truck at 3000 miles and am careful not to pop the dust boots when lubing the front end....Little things that might not have an immediate or obvious effect, but could very likely affect the longevity of the mechanism. Hell, I even use shock buffers!

Aside from the reasoning above, I suspect that the final slide velocity is reduced more than 10%. As noted earlier, I tend to disagree with the inelastic collision analysis in earlier posts for a couple of reasons:
1. Work is performed on the slide by the recoil spring the entire length of its movement (i.e. it's a dynamics problem, not a momentum/collision problem)
2. The force required to strip a round from the magazine (when slide veloity is near zero) and the force lost as the bullet nose is rammed into the ramp & up into chamber is not inconsequential.

I'll leave it to you physics guys to explain, as I'm just a dumb hydrology/hydraulics guy (my handle represents the only thing I learned from my structures classes!). But, as of yet, I remain unconvinced & would still caution against letting a slide slam.

Blackhawk
December 29, 2002, 08:20 PM
Good points, Mike. (I don't even let the door on the microwave oven slam shut.)

The mechanism can handle the abuse, but it will handle non abusive treatment a LOT longer.

Mike Irwin
December 29, 2002, 08:29 PM
Jerry Kuhnhausen...

WHAT A HACK! DOESN'T KNOW WHAT HE'S TALKING ABOUT! HE'S DANGEROUS!

Now, if you'll excuse me, I've got to get back to the S&W revolver I'm refurbing. Where's my reference book... Ah, here it is. By Jerry Kuhnhausen... Damn. :)



Blackhawk,

I do slam the door on my nuker. Probably shouldn't.

But I've been slamming the door on it for the past 14 years.

I want a new microwave, but this thing just simply will not die, dammit!

Maybe I'd best slam the slide on a tricked out .45 and see if it puts a round through my micro's door? :D

quantico
December 29, 2002, 09:15 PM
Originally posted by Bergeron
Does anyone know how much the chambering of a round "cushions" the slide going foward?
I don't see how the round of ammo would be able to slow the slide down enough to prevent battering of internal parts. I'm willing to be conviced however, so please review the calculations and help me find better data to calculate with!

You are missing the friction that is required to strip the round from the loaded mag and the friction in that system. The slide is slowed a bit by the weight of the round and the spring tension in the magazine. I know that you are trying to figure out the exact forces, but I am guessing you need more math and numbers than you are starting with.

Bergeron
December 30, 2002, 02:45 AM
F=ma, you are correct that the spring works on the slide throughout its length, so that the slide will be accelerated to a slower velocity because of the extra mass of the round of ammo.
I still need that data about the springs to figure out how much the difference is. I must email Wolff!!! If this extra stuff keeps popping up, I might just have to change my mind! (Not a bad thing at all, if the theory disagrees with observation, i.e., it'll screw up your trigger, the theory must be discarded or modified.)


quantico, you are correct. However, I cannot measure said friction or find it anywhere. If you could measure/find it, I would be appreciative.


Mike, you bring up something that I had not considered, that by holding the trigger on a 1911, the sear gets moved "out of the way" of the rest of the internals. I didn't figure that I knew something that 99% of pistolsmiths don't, I thought there was some information that I was not aware of, as appears to be the case. I was (and still am) of the opinion that the change in slide velocity from chambering just isn't enough to prevent damage.


I remeber an article from one of the armed services indicating that a troop was to cycle the slide of his 1911 with his finger on the trigger. I find that very interesting when I read your statements.


This does cause me to pose a further question: If the sear could be made stronger, would the slide release on an empty chamber be "better"?

BigG
December 30, 2002, 10:19 AM
Thanks for helping to perpetuate another URBAN LEGEND.

Gotta run. I'm channelling Gale MacMillan for barrel break-in advice. Where's that valve grinding compound? :rolleyes:

BigG
December 30, 2002, 10:24 AM
Why do the vast majority of the gunsmiths who built highly tuned 1911s say DO NOT RELEASE THE SLIDE ON AN EMPTY CHAMBER! For MIKE IRWIN:

Because they are putting an unsafe firing mechanism in there and they know it!!! When fire control parts are likely to break you have "tuned" :rolleyes: (lightened) your trigger pull too much. They know it and won't stand behind their work. Solution: shoot a four or 5 pound trigger like comes with a standard 45 Auto.

Didn't know you guys all have bullseye pistols for carry. :eek:

BigG
December 30, 2002, 10:29 AM
BTW, I agree with Jerry Kuhnhausen, too. But he was talking about building a Bullseye Colt 45, quite another thing than just "any old 1911."

Col. Mustard
December 30, 2002, 11:45 AM
2. The force required to strip a round from the magazine (when slide veloity is near zero) and the force lost as the bullet nose is rammed into the ramp & up into chamber is not inconsequential.

I would hazard a guess that this is a far more consequential energy-dampening factor than the mere weight of the round. The bullet has to change direction twice (up the feed ramp and forward into the chamber _/--> ), so the resulting frictional forces are more significant than the resistance of the weight of the round (the mass of which is pretty negligible compared to the mass of the steel slide) to the slide moving forward.

riverdog
December 30, 2002, 12:05 PM
Actually, the weight of the cartridge is more insignificant than the frictional forces involved. Just because you don't know how to measure something (frictional forces) doesn't make it inconsequential. The biggest issue though is the battering of the sear and hammer on match guns. On USGI 6# trigger field guns it doesn't matter much, but it isn't prudent with a finely honed <3.5# match trigger. There's a reason they call that insignificant little part a disconnector.

Mike Irwin
December 30, 2002, 01:10 PM
"Because they are putting an unsafe firing mechanism in there and they know it!!!"

Uh huh. Right. Whatever.

When you build handguns like this for a living, then maybe... :rolleyes: yourself.

By the way...

If you've ever seen the STOCK sear on the 1911 that's had the slide routinely dropped from the lock position, without the trigger being pulled, maybe you'd understand what's being talked about. Stock sears that look like serated steak knives because they're so badly chipped... Nah, that's inconsequential.

But then again, maybe the God-like John Browning's ultimate handgun isn't as ultimate as everyone thinks it is?

Or maybe people should just think about how they're handing their guns and not do patently STUPID bull**** with them?

Nah... that's too easy.

BigG
December 30, 2002, 01:43 PM
Written in the sensitive tradition you've made a trademark, Mike. ;)

riverdog
December 30, 2002, 03:20 PM
a glock armorer told me it's ok to drop the slide on an empty chamber. When Glock trigger designs start resembling 1911 triggers, the comments of a Glock armorer may be germane, in this discussion they're irrelevant.

NEon
December 30, 2002, 03:25 PM
Good way to ruin a good trigger job on a 1911 style gun. Ease it down then dry fire the trigger down.

Nero Steptoe
December 30, 2002, 03:53 PM
"but I am guessing you need more math and numbers than you are starting with."

I'm also guessing that he knows a lot more about math and numbers than he does about the mechanics of firearms!

Bergeron
December 30, 2002, 09:09 PM
Yep, that's right. I'm hoping to learn more, hence this thread.

Bergeron
December 31, 2002, 05:05 AM
I hit upon an idea on how to measure the force to strip the round from the magazine. I don't have any of the gear to make this happen, but if someone does, please, let me know. If you could take a trigger meauring device, put the detector at the end of the case, and pull foward in line with the direction of the round, you could then read the force nessecary to strip the round out of the magazine. Anybody willing to help out?

P.S. Emailed Wolff last night, hope to get a response from them!

BogBabe
December 31, 2002, 08:54 AM
I just have to wonder: If it's so bad to release the slide on an empty chamber, why is it that not a single owner's manual of any of my guns warns not to do it?

In fact, every one of my owner's manuals provides instructions on how to do it.

:confused:

NEon
December 31, 2002, 09:43 AM
Do you own a 1911 style with a worked sear, hammer, and disconnect?

F=ma
December 31, 2002, 11:03 PM
My SA 1911 manual specifically says not to do it in three places...One states:

"Do not release the slide on an empty chamber! Doing so will destroy the hammer and sear engagement on your trigger pull. This can cause the hammer to fall to the Safety Stop position. It could also cause damage to other finely tuned parts of your pistol...."

OTOH, my old Glock manual seems to encourage the practice.

Regardless, why? I just don't understand why one would even consider putting a precision instrument through any unnecessary stress/strain. To each his own.

BigG
January 1, 2003, 10:45 AM
Unsafe in the sense of unreliable. Messrs Kuhnhausen, et al know they are lightening the engagement surfaces below the point of indestructability engineered into it by Moses hisself. These pistolsmiths know their trigger job IS going to fail, they just don't know WHEN. Ifn you shoot a bullseye worked trigger long enough you will need a new trigger job regardless of how you baby it. Kuhnhausen also mentions that, IIRC.

Should not apply to a standard 45 Auto, 1911 type. To each his own.

Baba Louie
January 1, 2003, 11:56 AM
My dear old Dad (machinist/gunsmith) always preached to me about not doing just that. The word he used (correctly or no) was "Peening" the two or three metal pieces that come together with no brass cartridge in the chamber to "soften" the impact.

Was he right? I dunno.

He's also been a machinist since 1952 and knows a little about working with metal.

Since Dad said not to, I don't. End of story for me.

Adios

NEon
January 1, 2003, 01:43 PM
I don't "pop" the clutch in my car either. It will probably hold, but why? 'Course with enough money you can do what you want.:what:

gyrfalcon16
August 8, 2007, 03:01 PM
I think it's a completely bogus assertion that releasing the slide on an empty chamber will cause any substantial damage to a defensive firearm.

If anyone disagrees I would like to know the exact mechanics of what you believe will cause damage, and a real life example.

So far I've read that these components could be damaged without any valid explanations of how they would be:


Extractor
Locking Block
Sear


http://m.rhs.jordan.k12.ut.us/bcox/period1/mike'sjobwebsite/full_anim.gif
http://m.rhs.jordan.k12.ut.us/bcox/period1/mike'sjobwebsite/searanim2.gif

gyrfalcon16
August 8, 2007, 03:06 PM
I don't "pop" the clutch in my car either. It will probably hold, but why? 'Course with enough money you can do what you want.

That's a bad analogy... Everyone knows exactly why popping the clutch on a car causes damage to the transmission. Releasing the slide on an empty chamber does virtually nothing to the parts of firearm.

6_gunner
August 8, 2007, 03:21 PM
I don't think it hurts anything. Many small or old autos don't have a slide hold-open feature and so they close on an empty chamber after the last round is fired. Those guns don't seem to be any less durable than ones in which the slide locks open.

Baba Louie
August 8, 2007, 05:51 PM
Whoa, Deja Vu. :p
If it's your own handgun, feel free to let that slide fly forward on an empty chamber. Chances are you don't have a whole lot of money tied up on that particular firearm anyway or don't care if doing so (slide release on empty) will cause any harm to your handgun.

Please do not employ that same action on one of mine, or anyone else's without asking and receiving their permission. (I'm sure you would never do that to one of mine or anyone elses without asking for said permission) As others have so eloquently pointed out, It can cause issues with certain portions/parts of the trigger mechanism of certain types of guns... AND... it is considered rude to do so (to other's firearms... no one cares what you do with your own) and is typically an action performed by a novice (flame suit on). If it's a Glock... who cares? :neener: If it's a Yam, Yost, Christiansen (or others) fine tuned handgun... you might want to ask that gunsmith's opinion as to why or why not such an action would be objectionable. I suppose if you're going to pay him by the hour for future remedial trigger/barrel link work, he really won't care one way or another.

I have seen 1911's with peening issues, which may or may not have been a result of such practice... could have been soft steel, could have been timing issues or pin alignment could have been all of the above or none of the above.

I was taught to treat other people's guns better than I treat my own. And I was taught to never drop the slide on an empty chamber on one of mine.
YMMV

gyrfalcon16
August 8, 2007, 07:51 PM
As others have so eloquently pointed out, It can cause issues with certain portions/parts of the trigger mechanism of certain types of guns... AND... it is considered rude to do so (to other's firearms... no one cares what you do with your own) and is typically an action performed by a novice (flame suit on). If it's a Glock... who cares?

Here's a flame suit on for you:

Any gun that you can't release the slide on an empty chamber is defective or unsuitable for self defense.

So all of you fellas with $1000 1911's, etc that are tricked out and can't have the slide released on an empty chamber without risk of damaging them... they're junk when it comes to self-defense.

Seriously... do you people actually believe to that push a round out of the mag reduces the slide force that much?

If you want my personal opinion you're suffering from a psychological disorder called babygunitopia. :evil:

Baba Louie
August 8, 2007, 09:08 PM
:D Ahhhh spirited discourse. Ya gotta love it. :rolleyes:

gyrfalcon, my Dad was a gunsmith who probably worked on maybe (I'm guessing here) 500+ handguns while I was living at home as a kid. This was back in the 60's and 70's when there were Colts, a few S&W's, BHP's, a Luger or two and a whole lot of revolvers. I've seen with my own eyes bunged up handguns and I watched him attempt to rectify some of them. Most were old warhorses, might have had spotty heat treatment, certainly back then they were a lot cheaper than the ones sold nowadays in more ways than one. I doubt slide cracks were due to the slide being released on empty chambers. Bad top lugs (rounded) and bottom lug uneven wear (slide stop pin alignment?)... You'd have to ask Art, Tuner or Old Fuff.

I couldn't tell you how many more he worked on since I moved away from home. Hundreds more I'm sure. The quality was better in some ways, since metallurgy had improved considerably.

I didn't say you couldn't release the slide on an empty chamber, I said I was taught not to do that since a lot of the guns I got to handle as a kid did not belong to me or my Dad. So I still practice what my Dad taught me.

Riddle me this "O slide slamming wizard" :D, Why does one need to drop the slide (using the slide stop of course) on an empty chamber other than the machismo sound?

I know that one can operate one's handgun in that manner, and I've seen it done in Gun Shops with brand new handguns by some peoples kids. I've also heard Gun Store Owners tell those who do that "Don't do that again." Probably because they do not own it yet and who wants to buy a gun that every tom dick and harry has handled in such fashion.
Seriously... do you people actually believe to that push a round out of the mag reduces the slide force that much?Oh heavens no! Depressing the slide stop to chamber a round from the magazine and place the handgun into battery is a totally different thing than dropping the slide on an empty chamber. I still prefer to rack the slide back a bit and slingshot release the slide but you can certainly use the slide stop lever to release the slide... when there is a round in the magazine you are ready to chamber. That's a slightly different matter.

But I thank you for pointing out the defective or unsuitable (for) self defense handguns owned by gunowners who treat their handguns with... a little respect they feel they are due. I did not know that. You learn something every day if you keep your mind open... doncha? :)

XavierBreath
August 8, 2007, 10:23 PM
This is a four year old thread. If you want to debate this, how about starting a new thread?

Seriously... do you people actually believe to that push a round out of the mag reduces the slide force that much?Yes. Learn a little about the function of the gun before you start slinging poo.

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