Think no civilian needs high-powered rifles? Ask the Russians


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Selvagee
September 3, 2004, 06:34 PM
via Little Green Footballs:

A friend of mine who I trust has passed along the following information:

Last report I have says its now 19 out of twenty dead. Three more are holed up in the building basement with some hostages, seven are in another building being pounded by tanks and the rest are fleeing through the countryside pursued by local citizens with deer rifles.

**EDIT** its now been reported that the ones who tried to flee across country (now numbered at 13) are holed up in a house, surrounded by local civilians who are shooting the place apart, brick by brick.

Confirmation awaited.

The best-selling deer rifle in Russia is the Tigr, a civilianized version of the Dragunov SVD. Its wickedly accurate.

Shoot straight, comrades :fire:

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Phantom Warrior
September 3, 2004, 06:54 PM
*grabs Remington 700 out of the safe*

Anyone know the cost of a plane ticket to Russia?

Tall Man
September 3, 2004, 07:25 PM
The latest death toll estimate is ~200, almost half of which are children. At the moment I am making this post, the Drudge report (www.drudgereport.com) has a link to an excellent article.

Scrolling about halfway down this (www.ogrish.com) page will take you to a series of links (#1 - 10) that show some truly heartbreaking images. Needless to say, said images are not for those with weak constitutions. Proceed at your own discretion.

What a needless incident this was. May the commandos and armed civilians shoot accurately.

TM

Stickjockey
September 3, 2004, 09:07 PM
Anyone have confirmation on this?

Edited to add:

PW, when do we leave:fire:

Standing Wolf
September 3, 2004, 09:21 PM
We should have obliterated Baghdad at the outset, then accepted unconditional surrenders from Iraq and the rest of the Islamic terrorist states. We'd have saved a great many irreplaceable American lives, as well as some Russian lives.

Roc_Kor
September 3, 2004, 09:40 PM
Russians can own guns? Is that true? Cause I wouldn't know.

And I woulda gotten my WASR-10 and joined them in that fight. For some reason, I always thought about what would happen if terrorists or the like invaded my high school, and I'd get my gun (WASR) and give the cops a hand or something.

Stand_Watie
September 3, 2004, 09:58 PM
Russians can own guns? Is that true? Cause I wouldn't know

Yup. Check out Max Popenker's collection

http://world.guns.ru/about/max_aek919.jpg

http://world.guns.ru/

Selvagee
September 3, 2004, 10:59 PM
More here (http://www.logicandsanity.com/archives/2004/09/school_seized_i.html#more)

evil....:fire:

schromf
September 3, 2004, 11:23 PM
I followed a link in another thread to footage on this crisis, and while I was there saw the video of the execution of the Nepalise in Iraq. I got to tell you I feel sick to my stomach and really am wondering right now why these animals deserve any human rights at all. The website is extremely graphic and not for the weak in stomach, and frankly in very bad taste.

Find: ogrish using your search function of threads, I won't post it directly.

The Nepalise footage really outrages me, these guys need to be hunted down like dogs, but a slow torture would be more fitting of their crimes.

No, I am not in a real charitable mood right now, the people responsible for this aren't even human, by any civilalized definition.

PMDW
September 3, 2004, 11:25 PM
Yup. Check out Max Popenker's collection

Uhh... There's a difference between owning a bunch of guns, and having a website with a bunch of gun pictures on it. Just because you have one, doesn't mean you have the other.

GD
September 4, 2004, 07:55 AM
And gunboat Johnny wants to be more sensitive about dealing with these terrorists!:cuss:
The only way to deal with these guys is to hit them first and hard.

Stand_Watie
September 4, 2004, 10:56 AM
Was looking for this post, description of Russian gun ownership

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=96371

[Warcraft mage voice on]Who summoned me?[Warcraft mage voice off]

well, the gun culture here, in Mother Russia, is a very mixed thing

first, the laws:
any lawful citizen 18+ old, with no crime records, methal illness or alcoholic records can apply for firearm permit. This takes about 15-20USD (offical fees) and abouth month or two to complete all procedures in local police. One can do it little faster (about one - twoo weeks) with some semi-legal help for about 100USD
As you have permit, you can go to gunshop and buy yourself a shotgun. After purchase, you MUST register your shotgun in local police within next 10 days; If failed to do so, a money fine is issued (about 20 - 50USD)
Each gun must be re-registered each five years.

One can own up to 5 shotguns per permit, if you want more, you can apply for collector's license, but this is much more expensive (don't know how much)

Rifles: one can apply for rifle license after 5 years of shotgun ownership; procedure is the same, and the same 5 rifles limit is applied (making it total up to 5 + 5 firerms w/o collector's license)

Long gun limitations (both smoothbore and rifled): OAL not less that 80 cm (31.5 in) or BBL not less that 50 cm (20 in); if folding-stocked gun fails to suit limitations with stock folded, it must have special device which blocks firing when butt if folded
mag capacity no more than 10 rounds
no caliber limits (one with rifle licence can legally buy a .338 Lapua Sako TRG-42 or .50BMG Armalite-50, if have enough money =)

Next, handguns.
Officially, "real things" are prohibited from civilian ownership. But, as ususal in Russia from ancient times, the law has many built-in (probably intentionally) loop-holes. Examples:
All congress-men (State Duma members) are allowed to own handguns, issued by MVD (Internal affairs Ministry); not sure if they can keep guns after being kicked outa DOOMa , but probably can
Also, every "para-military state service" (such as local police, fire guard, etc etc) can award their standard-issue sidearms to any civilian with "special merits". Guess what merits are most valued?

But, there's a thread in the right direction.
First, only tear-gas guns were allowed from early 1990s.
Then, in the late 1990s one large state company produced a barrel-less self-defence firearm, which fires 15mm (.60 caliber) rubber slugs at MV of about 120 m/s, with muzzle energy of 85 Joules (63 ft-lbs);
This relatively huge, electrically fired gun is derringer-type, with 4 barrels in cluster; it does kick, and can broke a chest bone or two if fired from 3-5 yards into the chest area through the light clothes
From the late 2003 there's also some less-lethal guns which fire rubber balls of 9-10mm in caliber with MV of about 400 m/s... These are made in the form of PM Makarov, Walther P22, and SW Chiefs Special revolver.

Prices are about 200 to 350 USD per gun, ammo is about 2-4 USD per round.
All those guns require police license to buy and then must be registered like any other firearms.

The other thing is black market, which is full with anything from WW2 guns, found in the grounds of former battle fields, and up to AK's and PM's, stolen from army stocks, and smuggled foreign guns.

The society has no strong bias to either side. The crime rate is high, and the police is not well regarded by average lawful Ivan or Sergey

There's constant pressure from pro-gunners (yours truly included), and we have hopes that maybe withing next 3 to 5 years we finally will be allowed to own and carry legal handguns.

as to long arms, there's about one or two millions of registered hunters in the country; there's also plenty of recreational shooters, most of them preferring military-looking Saiga shotties

As for myself.. i finally got the permits for shotgun and less-lethal arm this summer; the problem is that money are tight now as i recently bought a new flat to my family, and must pay debts.
As soon as money will be ok, i plan to buy a decent shotgun, maybe a aemi-auto MP-153 (about 300-400 USD here), or, if fortune will smile on me, an used SxS (Soviet era or imported) with English-style stock, preferably in 20Ga...

Ian
September 4, 2004, 11:02 AM
When did the Chechen fighters go from a legit independence movement to a religious terrorist group? Seriously, everything I've read indicates that in 94/95 they were fighting Russian invasion/occupation of Chechnya (and doing a darn good job of it, too). I haven't looked into what went on ater that war, though...

Destructo6
September 4, 2004, 01:57 PM
When did the Chechen fighters go from a legit independence movement to a religious terrorist group? Seriously, everything I've read indicates that in 94/95 they were fighting Russian invasion/occupation of Chechnya (and doing a darn good job of it, too). I haven't looked into what went on ater that war, though...
Probably shortly after they failed to win. I suppose it's "total change" in Clauzwitz's "total war."

RevDisk
September 4, 2004, 03:37 PM
When did the Chechen fighters go from a legit independence movement to a religious terrorist group? Seriously, everything I've read indicates that in 94/95 they were fighting Russian invasion/occupation of Chechnya (and doing a darn good job of it, too). I haven't looked into what went on ater that war, though...


Standing Wolf pretty much hit it on the head. The Russians tried to obliterate Grozny and to a lesser extent the rest of Chechnya. Basically, pound the place flat. The idea is that if you "bomb them back to the Stone Age", eventually they'll give up.

The problem is, sometimes they don't. Some people have a real aversion for foreigners trying to kill them because they live in the wrong place. They think the only way of stopping the Russians is to go after their civilians, especially their most defenseless civilians.



Not saying what the Chechens are right to kill kids. I believe anyone that kills children have a special place waiting for them when they die, and it's not going to be a pleasant one. Understanding someone's rationale isn't the same thing as endorsing it.

Cool Hand Luke 22:36
September 4, 2004, 04:56 PM
Standing Wolf pretty much hit it on the head. The Russians tried to obliterate Grozny and to a lesser extent the rest of Chechnya. Basically, pound the place flat. The idea is that if you "bomb them back to the Stone Age", eventually they'll give up.

The problem is, sometimes they don't. Some people have a real aversion for foreigners trying to kill them because they live in the wrong place. They think the only way of stopping the Russians is to go after their civilians, especially their most defenseless civilians.

No. This round in Chechyna can't be pinned on Russian bad behavior.

The Russians withdrew from Chechyna and gave it de fato independence after the first war there.

Essentially, all that the Islamicists in the Chechynian Government had to do to achieve actual independence was wait 5-10 years. Instead they allowed AL-Queda to begin operating there, and with other harbored radical groups attempted to destabilize the local government in Dagestan, and carry out a series of massive terror attacks such as the apartment block bombings in Russia proper.

For people who supposedly want their independence from Moscow they sure have done a fantastic job of ensuring that the Russians will need to stay.

RevDisk
September 4, 2004, 05:15 PM
For people who supposedly want their independence from Moscow they sure have done a fantastic job of ensuring that the Russians will need to stay.

Pretty much. Killing a large number of children will make Russia clamp down on Chechnya like a vice grip. Rightly so.

Destructo6
September 4, 2004, 10:42 PM
Pretty much. Killing a large number of children will make Russia clamp down on Chechnya like a vice grip. Rightly so.
Not only that, but will make foreign nations more reluctant to demand kid gloves with them.

White Horseradish
September 5, 2004, 01:15 AM
When did the Chechen fighters go from a legit independence movement to a religious terrorist group?

When they asked their Islamic brothers for help and they came in and started running the show.

vertigo7
September 5, 2004, 01:42 AM
The best-selling deer rifle in Russia is the Tigr, a civilianized version of the Dragunov SVD. Its wickedly accurate.

Tiger info (http://www.dragunov.net/tiger.htm)
Tiger range report (http://www.dragunov.net/report_tiger.htm)
Tiger rifle (http://www.izhmash.udm.ru/arms/tigr.html)

Looks like a nice rifle. I wouldn't mind owning one. Anybody know if it's still imported?

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