It's time for new thinking on guns in schools


PDA






Andrew Rothman
September 4, 2004, 03:54 AM
Well, we've all seen the pictures of the dead Russian schoolchildren. My heart goes from numbness to sadness to anger to resolve, then starts over again.

To those who would say, "It could never happen here," I would point to a rather large crater in Manhattan. We thought that would never happen here, either.

A couple of dozen terrorists held a thousand people -- students, parents, and staff -- hostage.

The Russian people are, for the most part, disarmed by their government. Those parents had no tools with which to resist the animals who killed so many of their children before their eyes.

In Israel, after PLO terrorists targeted schoolchildren in the 1970s, the government started letting reservists keep their guns at home and carry them on the streets.

Teachers armed themselves, volunteer parents patrolled the schools, and even volunteer civilian sniper teams were formed.

And the terrorists pretty much gave up on schools as targets.

(Dave Kopel writes about this at http://nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel200 409022215.asp, (http://nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel200409022215.asp,) where he quotes a fascinating interview of a German-Israeli ex-soldier/political scientist/security expert: http://www.jpfo.org/school.htm )

My daughter is two years old. She'll be in Kindergarten in three years.

Here's what her future elementary school's emergency procedures manual tells her teacher to do:

If an armed individual comes into the classroom:

1. Try to turn on the intercom so the main office can hear the situation.

2. If possible, notify the principal or designee via intercom, phone or by runner (call for "code red").

3. Do as the gunman demands.

4. Do not make sudden moves which could frighten the subject (ask permission to move).

5. Never argue.

6. Keep your students as calm as possible.

7. Talk to the gunman.

8. Learn as much as you can about the gunman.

9. If more than one person is involved, concentrate on the one person if possible.

10. Be observant.

11. Mentally record a detailed description of the individual and the weapon.

12. Identify a distinctive feature and continue to concentrate on that one item.

13. Remember what objects the intruder touches and preserve them for law enforcement.

14. It is critically important to preserve the crime scene. Do not touch or move any possible evidence.

If a gunman starts shooting:

1. Tell students to lie on the floor.

2. Take cover on the floor and/or behind equipment.


Yes, that's real. See for yourself on page three: http://www.minnetonka.k12.mn.us/schools/ EmergencyProcedures/ExcelsiorElementaryS chool.pdf (http://www.minnetonka.k12.mn.us/schools/EmergencyProcedures/ExcelsiorElementarySchool.pdf)

"Comply with the gunman" was the mantra of airline security in the pre-September-11th world.

The rules, in case anyone hasn't noticed, have changed.



Now, I'm just guessing here, but I'll bet that Israeli schools have a slightly different manual. I imagine I might look like this:

If an armed individual comes into the classroom:

1. If it is a parent, teacher, police officer or soldier, smile and say hello. He or she is there to help keep you and your students safe.

2. Otherwise, draw your sidearm as trained and hold the individual at gunpoint. Have a student fetch fellow staff members, security officers or armed parent volunteers.

3. If the gunman does not comply instantly, fire several shots to center of mass, as trained. Note that if the individual is wearing body armor, a follow-up head shot may be necessary.

4. Evacuate the students while the bomb squad, morgue and police do their work.

To which school would you rather trust your child?

---
http://mattpayne.chatango.com/i?4 (http://mattpayne.chatango.com/)

If you enjoyed reading about "It's time for new thinking on guns in schools" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Lady45
September 4, 2004, 07:05 AM
Welllll hmmmm

I have to agree with Matt on this one about terrorists. Our high schools have an on-site policeman at each school....mostly to make sure the students don't start something....not from outside interference....but I have to tell you.....I have an opinion coming from a different point of view. I drive a school bus and have for over 15 years. I have seen the behavior of your "young-uns" change dramatically in that time. Take it for truth....the majority of your children act very differently under peer pressure or whatever you want to call it...when they ride a school bus. We have taken to cameras in the buses that have bad discipline problems...to prove to Mom and Dad just what little Bobby did! But...we have also had adults try to board, highjack.....non-custodial parents trying to take a child at a bus stop.....if you think that the little lady/man behind the door just drives the bus....you are sadly mistaken as to the job qualifications and functions. You try to drive a 45 foot long vehicle with 30-70 screaming kids and maybe you would have some patience and respect for that driver....and cut him/her some slack if they get caught up in traffic ....or have to deal with little Freddie throwing little Jimmy's book out the window.....and are 5 minutes late because of that problem. BUT NO.....you have to get on the phone and call transportation and report a late bus. BUT.....when you take the time to circle the block 4 times because your kindergarten child has no parent to meet them at the bus-stop.....because Mom got caught in traffic...what you get is usually nothing.....sigh. SO....if you trust your child to this person......make them behave....because if someone should happen to hijack that bus....or bring a weapon.....that bus driver is the ONLY person on that bus to protect your child!!!!! and all the rest of them as well!!! SOoooooo........remember to meet your child's driver.....call them if you want......transportation may not give out there phone number....but they will give them a message to call you! Let them know that you are concerned and interested in the welfare of your child.....and work with them....for your childs protection. If I did not love my job....I would not continue to do it.....cause I am not getting rich from it....that is for sure. And come Christmas or the end of the school year.....don't forget to show your bus driver in some small way that you appreciate him/her. I am not allowed to carry on the bus....but there are times that I wish I could...for protection.......for the children.....and for myself. There are crazy people everywhere.

Sorry if I got a little off subject here....but the school bus is an extention of the school that many people seem to forget about. It is a tough job....

GD
September 4, 2004, 07:40 AM
One of our teachers in our high school is an ex-cop (17 years of service). I ask our principal to let him be armed for the very reasons above. Her response? She thought I was crazy. I told her that I was requesting this only to lay the groundwork for a possible lawsuit in the event there was a school invasion by a gunman!
The current policy is to lock your doors and turn off the lights and hope he goes away.
Schools like ours often advertise the fact that they are unarmed with little signs in front of the school.
I guess we are waiting to change the policy after a couple hundred kids are dead.

Diggler
September 4, 2004, 07:55 AM
The reason we haven't had anything like that happen in America and Russia did, is because we have those "This is a Gun-Free Zone" signs on our schools. I bet Russian schools don't have those, and that's why those terrorists went in there. If we sent them some signs, they wouldn't have to worry about it again!

stevelyn
September 4, 2004, 09:27 AM
Our high schools have an on site policeman at each school........mostly to make sure the students don't start anything...

That concept didn't work at Columbine. Those officers:rolleyes: dove for the nearest exit.

Waitone
September 4, 2004, 09:27 AM
Look at Russia for a glimpse of the future here in the US. Our schools will be attacked. It will be bloody. It will be a media circus. It will be designed for maximum psychological impact.

Just after 911 Al Qaeda in a manifesto specifically claimed the right to kill 4 million Americans including up to 2 milliion American children. American schools are plenty in number scattered all over. Since government like consolidation they present large target even in rural area. The police and various paramilitary organizations are not of sufficient numbers to handle multiple hits in a given locale.

Pulling off a hit on a school requires a trained team. Recently and ignored by our media there has been a increase in groups of OTM (other than Mexicans) crossing the southern border. Because of the stupidity of our immigration officials the response is to take their names and let them go. I fear combat teams are infiltrating the US for a series of hits specifically on US schools.

El Tejon
September 4, 2004, 09:36 AM
Which school? A non-government school.

Why do people at THR believe that the government has the slightest interest in protecting anyone but themselves?

As an aside, telling children to lay down is what got all those kids shot in Stockton, California. The teacher told them to lie down and allowed Purdy stationary targets. "There are guns here!"

Wait, before Spain I would have rolled my eyes. But now . . .:uhoh:

Atticus
September 4, 2004, 09:49 AM
"Be compliant"
That explains why 30 armed people can control 1500 people....and then kill 300 of them. What would be the death toll in Russian if they had charged the terrorist immediantly? Many fewer I'd guess.

Selvagee
September 4, 2004, 10:12 AM
Alas this is the same argument made, post- Flight 93, for allowing weapons on aircraft. We all know how far that went. :banghead:

In this case the were hundreds of adults in the building. Even assuming just a handful of armed parents/staff, the outcome would have been much different as the terrorist dirtbags would not have had the uninterrupted luxury of wiring the building with explosives. It sounds like most of the killed/wounded were caught in explosions rather than shot.

Thinking of my first-grader having to face something like this ... it's beyond words.

Unfortunately the WWII-era Japanese concern of "a rifleman behind every tree" defending America just doesn't seem to be the case anymore.

Norton
September 4, 2004, 11:48 AM
We have two armed uniformed officers in our building, but I doubt how effective they could be in the event of an attack by multiple bad guys.

We also have a handful of security guys who are retired military or police officers. At least one of those guys has a MD CCW (and we know how hard those are to come by) yet he is prohibited from carrying on school grounds.

As I've said here before, I'm fairly concerned about this sort of thing.....my room is right next to the exit to the outside and those doors are NEVER secured. Furthermore, I have windows.

I would be the first to sign up if they said teachers could be armed. I would submit to whatever level of training they said that I had to have.

KadicDeshi
September 4, 2004, 12:27 PM
My parents and an aunt and uncle are all public school teachers. I have spoken to my father about this very thing before. It seems that, in Arkansas at least, a teacher in possesion of a firearm cannot come within 1000 ft IIRC of a school without risking at the very least their position and teaching license.

I was then told about an incident in which a coach was 'caught' with a starter pistol in his vehicle in the school parking lot. I can't remember exactly what happened except that he was in hot water for quite a while.

I just don't understand. The government expects teachers to protect their students while at the same time denying the means to do so. *sigh*

That said, I was amazed one time when my father called in the local PD, asking them to shoot down a large limb dangling over the playground after a storm on weekend. He hadn't been able to contact the superintendant or any of the school board to get a tree trimming service out there and many children play in the schoolyard over the weekend.

The police arrived and were unable to bring the limb down with their glock 22's. My father asked them to allow him to bring his 30-30 onto the school grounds and took the limb down in 1 shot. ( He's had a disdain of .40 S&W ever since despite my attempts to explain that a rifle round simply cannot be compared to a pistol round like that )

'Course our local PD has about 5-6 officers total and is pretty laid back. Actually, my dad taught a couple of the younger ones. And our town is only about 2000 pop. I can't see him getting away with that in a more populated town.

Sorry to ramble on, this has always been a bit of a sore spot with me.

Barrett

Walosi
September 4, 2004, 12:28 PM
Even after this Russian school incident, few of our school administrators will seriously consider armed teachers or any civilians in the schools. Their mindset is such that "If the Government doesn't provide it, it can't be protection". They would look kindly on uniformed National Guardsmen on the grounds (but not with loaded magazines, for heavens sakes) because they are "official" and they look nice. Unfortunately, it will probably take a vicious, bloody incident on our soil, like the recent one, to even get their attention. Even then, they will run in circles and dither about it being someone elses fault, because they ALWAYS occupy the high moral ground. If, or when, we have an incident, the school administrators should be gathered and charged with criminal neglect.

YammyMonkey
September 4, 2004, 01:10 PM
Home-school anyone?

Wayne D
September 4, 2004, 01:41 PM
I thought this was interesting

As hostages took their chance to flee, the militants opened fire on them, and security forces — along with town residents who had brought their own weapons — opened covering fire to help the hostages escape.

here's the link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5881958/

White Horseradish
September 4, 2004, 02:05 PM
I thought that was interesting as well, especially considering that guns are rather tightly controlled in Russia.

Majic
September 4, 2004, 02:35 PM
Terrorist attacks have been a big problem in the Middle East for decades. Russia has been in turmoil ever since the collapse of the Soviet Union. The big point missed here is that terrorist attacks in the USA are really very infrequent. The school shootings are being done by the students not some terrorist organization. Now what teacher or principal has the conviction to shoot a student that they know? What about the possible collateral damage to innocent students who could be hit in the gunfire?
Every place has it's own unique set of problems, but you can't use someone else's solution to their problem to solve your problem that is totally different. You are not living in the Middle East or Russia, so stop trying to think like they do as they try to repel invaders coming into their schools. Our school problems are internal with a totally different set of requirments.

Norton
September 4, 2004, 03:18 PM
>>Now what teacher or principal has the conviction to shoot a student that they know? What about the possible collateral damage to innocent students who could be hit in the gunfire?<<


I've given a lot of thought to this and I feel as if a student, no matter how well I knew them, were attacking other students with an obvious intent to kill I would be able to do whatever was necessary to eliminate that threat.

In an instance where a gunman was already in the process of shooting innocent children, it seems to me as if collateral damage is the lesser of two evils. Choice A is to allow a gunman to slaughter helpless kids unchallenged, Choice B is to do what is necessary to stop said gunman. At least with choice B, less kids are dead in the end.

Walosi
September 4, 2004, 04:41 PM
Majic, are you just a bit locked in on the type of administrative thinking I referred to? We aren't using "their" solutions to solve "our" problems, and at the instant of decision, the problem is the same - attacker(s) taking and/or murdering in our schools. At that instant it is immaterial whether the reason is political, monetary or "I'm gonna kill all of you because mommy made me wear funny clothes". The discussion is about the practicality of armed resistance to an attack on students massed in our/their normal school setting. The scenario is moot - it will be what it will be. The result is never satisfactory, but evaluated on the outcome of resistance over total compliance to the "terms" of an individual or group bent on slaughter.

The thought that kids have to attend classes in a venue resembling an armed camp is unsettling, to be sure. Sending them to the care of adults who will simply capitulate to an attacker is not acceptable. It is coming our way - that is almost without doubt. Calling it "their problem" simply makes us more vulnerable. If I had used past experience and that type of reasoning in practicing concealed carry, I would be dead, now. Twice.

Standing Wolf
September 4, 2004, 07:35 PM
Do as the gunman demands.

Wrong. Splatter the gunman's brains all over the nearest wall. Smirk at the remaining Islamic terrorist savages.

Roadkill
September 4, 2004, 08:01 PM
I'm a JROTC Instructor in a 2,000 kid high school. Been there for seven years. What you are missing is that out of 150 teachers about twenty are men. The females overall would rather die than touch a firearm. They are Democrats and liberals. Of twenty or so men at least three are gay. I mean flamers. Probably a couple of more are I don't know about. NOT gun candidates. My point is that out of 150 teachers maybe you could get seven or so who might be capable of using a gun for real. You should completely disregard the school employees as a factor in stoping any type of terrorist event. Hell, they aren't even reliable in a tornado drill.

rk

Wayne D
September 4, 2004, 08:04 PM
The school shootings are being done by the students not some terrorist organization.

For now.

Dr.Rob
September 4, 2004, 08:20 PM
The cop on duty at Columbine tarded shots with Eric Harris until he was out of ammo. The thing was when it went down, he was outside the school.

I'd agree re-thinking school security. That situation in could well have been a test-run.

Vern Humphrey
September 4, 2004, 08:30 PM
Quote:
---------------------------
The cop on duty at Columbine tarded shots with Eric Harris until he was out of ammo.
---------------------------

As I recall, he testified he was down to seven rounds.

The students who were abandoned, of course, had plenty of ammo. :-(

Wayne D
September 4, 2004, 08:37 PM
I remember an analysis of the Lubby’s (sp?) shooting in Texas that said most of the people that ran got away. The ones that hid under their tables were executed. I taught my kids that if they were in that kind of situation to get the hell out. A moving target is harder to hit than a stationary one. Of course if they are in a classroom and the teacher blocks the door and makes them stay in the room then they may not have the chance but if they get the chance then go.

I agree that a re-thinking of school responses are in order.

Vern Humphrey
September 4, 2004, 09:01 PM
Let's face it, school officials are hardly tactical geniuses!

And they have a predelection toward NOT acting to defend themselves.

Dbl0Kevin
September 4, 2004, 09:51 PM
I'm afraid that the liberal "do nothing" mindset is so well sunk into the school system that this is really going to be an uphill battle. To illustrate my point I'll relay something that happened recently that really blew my mind.

A good friend of mine from the police academy was substitute teaching at a local high school a few months ago for some extra money. Well one day when he was due to sub early in the morning he had just finished working a midnight shift and did not have time to go home. So he went to the school in his police uniform and brought clothes to change into. Well the principal just about had a fit that he dared to bring a GUN into his school! Made my friend leave the grounds and drive all the way home to get changed. This was the reaction to a UNIFORMED POLICE OFFICER!!! To top it all off the principal is now giving my friend a bad reference to anyone who calls for a background check simply because he came to work in his police uniform.

The ironic part is that my friend is one of those cops who never carries his gun anywhere when he is off duty. Now the one time he actually had it with him is going to be a black mark on his record for anyone who calls this stupid school for a reference. Talk about effed up! :fire:

P95Carry
September 4, 2004, 10:01 PM
Andrew - I am in total agreement with your sentiments ... but tragically, logic has little place in the equation we would seek.

A guy I fly model planes with is just going back to school .... he likes the place and is enjoying his course but ... you ready?????

Not guns this time .... (well, take that as read - zero tolerance) ... no, ''tobacco products'' .... not only is the school/college a smoke free zone .. not unusual but ...... if you even have a tin of snuff or cig's showing in your car - in parking lot ... it can be ''OUT!!'' .... expulsion!!!!!! Someone tell me that is rational and logical ... sheesh ... where are things going.?:rolleyes:

Daemon688
September 4, 2004, 10:07 PM
Well schools aren't totally defenseless. Almost all schools have an on duty police officer every day. I doubt that would be any different at Minnetonka since the school is huge.

I know Lakeview is really bad. They have multiple police officers and even send dogs into classrooms to sniff out drugs on kids. :eek:

It's sad that we have to talk about arming teachers now since schools are no longer safe. Maybe Columbine wouldn't have been 1/2 as bad if the faculty were armed and trained to use their weapons.

White Horseradish
September 4, 2004, 10:23 PM
Roadkill:Of twenty or so men at least three are gay.

*** does that have to do with them carrying a pistol? I would really like to give you a detailed explanation of why that is an asinine thing to say, but I'm sure some Pink Pistols here can do that much better.

Andrew Rothman
September 4, 2004, 11:48 PM
Terrorist attacks have been a big problem in the Middle East for decades. Russia has been in turmoil ever since the collapse of the Soviet Union. The big point missed here is that terrorist attacks in the USA are really very infrequent.

Terrorist attacks in Moscow were unheard of -- until one happened. Terrorist attacks against Russian Federation schools were also unheard of -- until this week.

In contrast, terrorist attacks on American targets have been escalating for decades, and they've reached our shores. They've turned from military to civilian targets.

It's a progression.

And "infrequent" isn't too reassuring. Crime is pretty infrequent in my state, but I still carry. Because "rarely" and "never" are not the same thing.

The school shootings are being done by the students not some terrorist organization.

"Have been," not "are." I can't see into the future, can you?

Now what teacher or principal has the conviction to shoot a student that they know? What about the possible collateral damage to innocent students who could be hit in the gunfire?

That sounds like the argument of an anti. "It'll just be used against you! What if you hit an innocent bystander?" Give me a break.

Every place has it's own unique set of problems, but you can't use someone else's solution to their problem to solve your problem that is totally different.

The solution to attack is defense, not capitulation. That's pretty universally applicable, don't you think?

You are not living in the Middle East or Russia, so stop trying to think like they do as they try to repel invaders coming into their schools.

A week ago, terrorists bombing schoolchildren wasn't a problem in Russia either. For Pete's sake! Will it take a massacre at an American school to convince you that we should take precautions?

Our school problems are internal with a totally different set of requirments.

It is said that our military leadership are always fighting the last war. Should the same be true of our homeland security efforts?

If we have a) well-screened passengers on planes full of armed, trained air marshals, and b) unprotected schools filled with children, the most sentimental targets we have, what fool of an Al Queda strategist is going to choose airplanes again?

I'm not suggesting barbed wire, checkpoints and uzi-toting principals, but rather the same sensible, sane and cost effective defenses that are proven effective.

The worst that could happen is that 10 percent of the staff at my kids' school carry a pistol, legally carrying parents, volunteers and visitors with sidearms are welcomed, and there's no attack.

Hallelujah! There's no downside!

Open your mind. Use your imagination! (The enemy is!) Let's, this time, lock a few barn doors before the horses escape.

Mad Man
September 4, 2004, 11:53 PM
I thought this was interesting

quote:As hostages took their chance to flee, the militants opened fire on them, and security forces — along with town residents who had brought their own weapons — opened covering fire to help the hostages escape.



here's the link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5881958/



According to the timeline (http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/shooting/report/columbinereport/pages/narrative_time_line2.htm) of the Columbine Report (http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/shooting/report/columbinereport/pages/toc.htm)



12:17 Deputy Byerly reports that a male wearing a white shirt and black pants is walking on the west side of the school. The young man had heard of the shooting on TV and ran through Clement Park towards the school carrying an unloaded .22 Caliber rifle and a knife in order to “help the police.” He subsequently is contacted at gunpoint. Deputies determine that the individual is not involved in the incident.

rick_reno
September 4, 2004, 11:59 PM
MSNBC ran a story today "Are U.S. schools prepared for terrorist attack?" - you can read it here. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5907600/)

It wasn't the article that got my attention, it was the link in the article to a report (ROADMAP) titled "Preparedness in America’s Schools: A Comprehensive Look at Terrorism Preparedness in America’s Twenty Largest School Districts".
I'm not convinced it's a good idea to be publishing a roadmap to the nations 20 largest school districts and in it openly discussing their vulnerabilities. You can read the report here. (http://www.americaprepared.org/pdf/SchoolsAssessment_0904.pdf)

boofus
September 5, 2004, 12:04 AM
Is there any doubt that prepared and motivated terrorists would have no problem pulling this off at US schools?

Two teenagers with a bunch of ghettoblaster handguns and makeshift short barreled shotguns killed how many people in Columbine? It took the SWAT team how long to go in? A group of 5-10 terrorists with smuggled FA weapons and explosives could take hostages easily, no matter how 'prepared' any liberal rag says we are.

Though it would be kind of funny if they tried it in an inner city school and the gangbangers started shooting back at them :D

Andrew Rothman
September 5, 2004, 12:32 AM
One additional item: As Joel Rosenberg pointed out, terrorist attacks on schoolchildren in the U.S. is not completely without precedent:

In 1999 in Los Angeles, a white supremacist and domestic terrorist named Buford Furrow shot up a Jewish Community Center "as dozens of children were playing. Five people were wounded, including three young children. All five survived and have since physically recovered." He stole a car, left the scene, and later killed a Filipino mail carrier.

(see http://www.cnn.com/2001/LAW/01/24/furrow.plea.crim/ for a decent overview.)

As Joel wrote today at http://online.startribune.com/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=18&rid=59740&pl_view=&start=278 ...After the LA JCC shooting, some years ago, the response from a fair number of Israelis was something to the effect of "where the hell were the parents"? It's commonplace for schools, camps, etc. to have either professional armed guards or armed parents standing guard, just in case some representative of the ReligionOPeace shows up, complete with AK47 and/or Semtex.

The reason that Islamists and their allies have been using terrorism all across the world is simple: it works. It turned Yassir Arafat from an Egyptian private into a billionaire and President for Life of the PA. It got the IDF to leave Southern Lebanon, and chased the US out of Beirut.

Once the Chechen and their Arab allies have demonstrated that it works in Russia, it's only a matter of time until we see it here.

Tom Clancy wrote a story about radical Islamic terrorists shooting up a day care center. For some reason, I tend to take Clancy's imagination seriously. He sure called it on using a 747 as a manned, guided missile.

Incropera-Dewitt
September 5, 2004, 12:43 AM
I am for letting teachers arm themselves if they want to but I dont think that guns in school would stop terrorists. All they need to do is take hostage of one classroom or one wing and we got a standoff. That one teacher or group of teachers are more than likely to get herself/himself killed if they went on the offensive.

Walosi
September 5, 2004, 12:44 AM
Let's go back to the days of yesteryear, when Israel was young and struggling, and the "freedom fighters", or whatever they called themselves then, commonly raided the communal farms needed to supply produce to the country. The raids were usually at night, and the kibbutz school was often the prime or at least secondary objective of the raiding team. Kibbutz schools included a dorm, or dorm rooms, and they tried with a vengeance to kill the kids there. They always try for the most painful part of a target. Over here, that is also one of the softest targets. History, people, history. Time to get real.

effengee
September 5, 2004, 12:49 AM
I was in school during the 80's under the shadow of mutually assured destruction and the final years of the cold war...
At one time I hated Russian school kids, because they were Russian...
We never had a case of a firearm being brought to school except for my 9th grade science project and when the cops would show up for assemblies or big championship games. I know more than a few moms and dads carried/still carry though... Concealed is concealed, and what "they" don't know won't hurt them...
Of course, there wasn't any more than 200 students in 7-12 grade...
There were 30 in my graduating class. We were the largest in 15+ yrs.
I never knew what a gang was except to watch about it on TV...
Crime was (and still pretty much is) not a factor...
I got into fights in school, got picked on in gym because I wasn't as fast or as strong as the other kids... Gave more than a few bloody noses to those faster, stronger kids too! I got into guns at an early age and learned right away that you don't need to be strong or fast, you only need to be careful... I hated school, but NEVER would I even DREAM about going in and wasting people... Well, maybe daydream about a few certain teachers/students who were deserving of a bullet. Just kidding!!!
I firmly believe that school is the BEST place to teach firearms safety...
I also think that my constitutional rights should not be infringed simply because I enter a public building...
I walk on the street outside with a firearm, I go shopping next door with a firearm, I drop the kids off and pick them up carrying and I've gone to soccer games and P/T conferences with a handgun in a fanny pouch.
Let a terrorist try something...
They don't see children and innocent people as anything but a means for furthering their cause...
Let some whacko or a child molester try something...
Yeah, I'll go to jail, but there will be a few less of them in the world and I'll plead temporary insanity and claim it was a justifiable homocide...

I won't advocate teachers or students carrying as a school policy, but to deny anyone their second amendment rights is like saying that the Bill of Rights only applies to certain designated areas...

Do we really want to teach our children that freedom is void where prohibited and some restrictions may apply???

If only people would stop watching guns on tv and got out to the range for a day of plinking, it'd be a merrier world...

me

sm
September 5, 2004, 12:58 AM
Growing up we had BB Guns and Archery in school. Everyone had some knowledge of firearms and how to shoot. Even the Female teachers.

The Former College I attended, very few Campus Police carried sidearms. Yep AR does not allow Fireams "on" Campus. I assure you their were / are firearms "off" Campus , from students to instructors - both genders.

I assure you some other instuctors that teach other levels of education have taken "steps" as well. I have assisted with CCW and from kindergarten to College....I met some folks.

The College I changed to , all the Campus Police are wearing sidearms, and a little birdy told me some long arms are in vehicles and "other places".

Same rule applies about "on" Campus and Firearms. Lots of instructors, students....well ....not everyone "parks" on campus. LOTS of folks with knives clipped to pockets, both genders. NO telling the knives not visible. I have the same instructor for all my classes, and some classmates as I've had in other classes....I don't believe any of us will be stationary targets, this might have been discussed in class...;)

AF_INT1N0
September 5, 2004, 01:17 AM
First off let me start with, I'm 26,have no kids and all I know about school is the (poor) public education givin to me and the (better) college I'm currently attending.

But It seems to me if the problems are the schools, why not start better schools. There are enough people home schooling to start appropriate schools. Teach firearms safety/markmanship and (the full) constitution, teach free thinking students, Arm the teachers and allow parents the same. The more I hear about students being kicked out for the capitol offense of drawing a firearm in artclass, or the computer systems in schools being filtered from pro-2nd web sites, and the ostrasizing and/or medication of gifted children because they prefer not to blindly follow the views of the teacher, the more I begin thinking about keeping my (future) kids away from these wackaloons. These are your children not thier sociology experiment.

I know this would be a difficult task but...It is indeed for the children

Model520Fan
September 5, 2004, 01:42 AM
How come we hear about schools and Jewish Community Centers being shot up, and seldom hear the same about police stations and pistol ranges?

What is their secret?

sm
September 5, 2004, 01:48 AM
Teachers do not have the "authority" they once had. Discipline , respect for teachers is non- existent in some cases. Public Schools are too PC and afraid of geting sued. The Students can get by with anything - and the students know it. Many parents/ guardians - don't care. It is a place to get the kid fed and out of their hair for a few hours.

A Lot of monies are spent to bus kids here in AR. We have had a problem with Public Schools for ~60 yrs. Taxes go up for education so the lawyers and politicans can get more for their pockets....kids, what do the kids need? So some folks pay pay out of pocket to homeschool or send Kids to Private schools...along with the school tax.

Our Economy is poor because of poor education,and folks wonder why.

So - my proposal has been this. Buildings, Buses and whatever cost monies to build , maintain and the like. IIRC our District spends $4 millon on buses, gas / maint....that is a LOT of $.

Give Every kid a computer and Internet access. Do Classes on- line . Now the teachers still teach - online as well. We can cut down the # of buses/ bus runs, the # of Public Schools , becausue kids don't have to attend every class , everday. The Same Building can be used for multiple classes, and subjects requiring hands on - such as science labs. I mean if HS kids didn't attend everyday ....Just like College....better use of resources.

The reality is - in Today's Real World , that is what kids are going to do when they grow up. Research the material , do the clincals/ labs/ etc.

Granted the early ages need the developmental stages to prep, still , all in all - less expenditure on those things that don't go toward education itself.

Get less gummit meddlin - less PC and the students will be better prepared for the real world. I'm sure Private Enterprise would be willing to help, they do have academic programs in place already.

Guns - well , let the teachers and students that are of age have them. Add the fact , less schools , less targets. The idea of schools as targets - less attractive. More folks with firearms less attractive. Heck not knowing who is armed is less attractive.

Just a thought.

$4 millon bucks has to buy quite a few "puters and Internet access tho'.

effengee
September 5, 2004, 02:14 AM
The oldest got in trouble last year for talking about fieldstripping my AK...

Talking about a gun in school, why not teach the dumb ones why guns are not toys to be played with?

Now I hear about kids being kicked out for drawing guns in art class...
Might as well get rid of Van Gogh for fear of kids chopping their ears off...

(It was Van Gogh wasn't it? I don't remember, I was drawing guns when the teacher was telling us about freaky artists who were long dead.)

How about being failed for writing an action story filled with guns for a free writing assignment by an uptight conservative english teacher and copying the story word for word and getting an A- in summer school from an open-minded liberal one who said that although it was vulgar and graphic, it was very descriptive and represented an extremely popular genre...
When I asked her about her opinion of firearms she surprised me and opened my eyes to the reasons why not to stereotype:
She said that although she didn't care for firearms or shooting sports, she didn't see why a lawful person should be denied access to them...

I teach my kids firearms safety... I wish every parent would do the same...
I'd rather they learn from me than from an accident...

Norton
September 5, 2004, 08:21 AM
I took a look at that report on the preparedness of the 20 largest school systems. I work in Prince George's County and we received a good rating. If what we are doing is the benchmark of what is considered "good" then I view the entire study with skepticism.

The report refers to the fact that that every school has 2 days worth of water in place for every student and staff member. That is a bald-faced lie....straight up. About a year ago, the principal came on the PA and asked all first period teachers to have every student bring in a bottle of water that we were supposed to store somewhere in our classroom. OK.....35 kids in a class X 1 gallon of water per day X 2 days. That means every classroom is supposed to have 70 gallons of water:confused: :what: Figure that we have nearly 3000 kids and the whole concept gets even fishier.

It's not happening.

Furthermore, while we have a visitor's center at the main entrance of the building where folks have to sign in to the building, the other 20 entrances to the building are unsecured and unsupervised. As long as a bad guy enters the building through the main entrance and announces his intentions and gives the old retired guy time to get off of his can to track down one of our uniformed officers we're OK.

And to top that off.....I'm at the best school in the county! What do you think the bad ones are like:cuss:

Mad Man
September 5, 2004, 08:22 AM
Tom Clancy wrote a story about radical Islamic terrorists shooting up a day care center.


That was a scene in Executive Orders (http://www.leegruenfeld.com/afddesc.htm), when terrorists try to kidnap President Ryan's daughter while she was at the center.

For some reason, I tend to take Clancy's imagination seriously. He sure called it on using a 747 as a manned, guided missile.



So did Dale Brown (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0425147231/qid=1094386459/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-8732049-5390303?v=glance&s=books) and (to a lesser extent) Lee Grunfeld (http://www.leegruenfeld.com/afddesc.htm).

kentucky bucky
September 5, 2004, 11:03 AM
When you post a sign at the entrance of any building, including schools, and declare it a "gun free" zone, you might as well also put up a sign stating: ATTENTION PSYCOS AND TERRORISTS, UNARMED VICTIMS INSIDE.

:cuss: :fire: :cuss: :fire:

Waitone
September 9, 2004, 03:01 PM
The purpose of teachers packing in school is not to STOP and event.

Its purpose is to distract the badguys and make noise. The purpose is to disrupt the plans of the BG's and hopefully buy enough time to allow professional good guys to arrive at the scene and set up operations. The key feature of the Russian operation was the planting of explosives in the gym. Nothing was done to distract the BG's.

As it stands now there is no interference envisioned should BG's want to hit a school. In my state we have palatial government factory schools way out in the country. They can have a thousand or more students. Schools range from elementary through middle through to high schools. There is no immediate defense anywhere around. To make it more interesting a number of them are located near a variety of roads which will facilitate escape should it be desirable.

Near where I live the county is constructing a campus consisting of 4 large schools on several hundred acres of land. The parcel is located between 2 cities. The big city has nothing, I repeat, nothing of that side of the city with which to respond. The smaller city couldn't afford the assets to respond.

School security has been focused on the past on a disruptive student of a parent. Now days the threat is armed combat teams. Americans don't respond to threats. We react once hit up side the haid. Too bad a lot of kids will die first.

Lady45
September 10, 2004, 06:33 AM
working in the school system for the past 15 years....I have become educated....about the system at least.

The school is a business just like any other...and the bottom line is money. Home schooling sounds good initially....but who is going to teach them with Dad and MOM...working outside the home. It used to be that Mom walked or drove little Suzie to school everyday...and sometimes the students would even come home for lunch and a nap....(the young ones..not the high schoolers...although they would if you let them ;-)

The structure of the American Family has changed with the advent of the two income family. Most parents don't even go to the bus stop with the kids anymore, much less take an active role in their education. School is the day care for kids over 5.....sad but true. Soooo there are not that many people in attendance to help on school grounds should an occurence take place. The administration seems to be so worried about weapons..(expelling kids for taking cultural items for "show and tell" that could be considered a weapon....or for bringing a knife to cut an apple for lunch because they wear braces and cannot bite into an apple....(true story..no exaggeration here). I as a bus driver....cannot have a gun in my car on the bus garage/transportation grounds....much less carry it. It is immediate grounds for termination if I am caught with it in my car. So....I either have to not carry from home....or park somewhere else and walk....great choice huh?

I was in school in the lates 70's and 80's....and I have seen a lot of things change. But the school system...in my opinion....while trying to do a very difficult job.....just does not have the parental/community support and demand to make the kind of changes you guys talk of. Society in general just does not care until they get hit right over the head with the "event". I for one.....will continue to carry my fanny pack on my bus.....and keep my CW in my car....and although I am VERY careful....and don't boast about it ..or even care to acknowledge to anyone that I work with that I have even the slightest interest in guns....I would rather lose my job than my life or one of the hundreds of children that are put into my care on a daily basis. Just as in everyday life.....my work motto is the same....they may attack me....but I will not go down without a fight!

As for home schooling.....it would be great if Mom wasn't working and staying home to raise those kids she gave birth to. But...I don't see it happening in my lifetime....and it is a shame. Just as I feel the breakdown of the American family is a shame and the ultimate reason for the decline of the American society....but then you did not ask me for my opinion....sigh


Lady45

LaVere
September 10, 2004, 07:23 AM
I am a volunteer at a urban elemintary school in Michigan. The only security we have is an unarmed adult hall monitor. He spend most of his time chatting with the female employees. The ( Hall Guards) are hired just a bodies to be there. Once I saw a person described a security chief walk through. This person was not armed and was so out of condition he/she could bearly walk up the stairs.
I the holder of a Michigan CCW can not only not carry in or on the school property I can't have the gun locked in my car on school property. I have to park on the street.
The terror test last year was 1. Lock the Door 2. Hide. 3. Put a sign on the window noting students at this location. 4. Place a colored paper under the hall door to show ( Good Guys ) were are in here.
While the chance of a terrorist at this location is extremely rare. An angry parent is more likly.

Mentor

Model520Fan
September 10, 2004, 07:51 AM
There is no hope for the public schools except drying them up with a voucher system (or forcing them to compete with private schools by means of a voucher system).

Meanwhile, some places are better than others. I carry at the private school to which I take the children, and I do it with the written permission of the head of the school, which is what is legally necessary in MA. It may not be easy for everyone to find a school headed by such a person, but do you really want to trust your children's education to idiots any more than you want to trust their lives to idiots?

Ironbarr
September 10, 2004, 08:27 PM
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=100560 - most folks believe that school gun bans are Federal - STATES can relax the general ban under their "licensing" laws.

Grassrooters might look to their state to change things.

For What It's Worth.

-Andy

Nightfa11
September 11, 2004, 12:58 AM
Tom Clancy wrote a story about radical Islamic terrorists shooting up a day care center. For some reason, I tend to take Clancy's imagination seriously. He sure called it on using a 747 as a manned, guided missile.


Read The Teeth of the Tiger for a sobering look at Islamic terrorists shooting up shopping malls. Same concept.

UnintendedConsequences
September 11, 2004, 03:07 AM
I substituted for a third grade class this week, the first subbing assignment I have had for a few years due to me having a regular day job until now. The shock between subbing a few years ago in 1999-2000 and now is great. The lockdown procedures are pretty much lock them in the room, shut off the lights and kiss your rump bye bye.

On top of that, teachers cannot retrieve students off of the playground if they refuse to come in at the end of recess, only the assistant principal can do that. If a kid gets out of line, the teacher doesn't do anything, just sends them to the timeout room or the office. Teachers act like prison guards in training, though they are nice to other adults.

What got me was forcing kids to only have bathroom access at specific times of the day. I let the kids go at the assigned times and at anytime then needed to.

But back to the subject at hand. If someone intent on attacking a school wanted to, they could do it. I look at the two public school districts in the county I live in here in Missouri. Even with lock down procedures, it is very easy to wipe out the school office and administrative office staff of both schools. Only one district has one police officer at the school. Second, if you wanted to wipe out a good number of students, just wait for lunch time and you have a few hundred students in one place, with only two exits for them to get out through easily in the one school, and in the other you can easily cover the four exits there are.

Those that might be locked down in rooms are easy targets once you shoot the door lock. With the idea of just having them lay down and hide in the room, that makes them easy targets as they won't go anywhere even if they can get out a window (if they are small enough kids).

When I was a reporter in the one town, I regularly had my Leatherman tool on my belt when I had to pick up things for the weekly newspaper I worked for. No one ever questioned me about that, yet there was a sign on the entry doors that said No Weapons Allowed. Not that I drew attention to it, but if a conspicuous tool sheath doesn't draw attention, why would someone with a concealed weapon?

As for a police or sheriff response, it takes our county SWAT team about 45-60 minutes to respond if they are lucky, and it is made up of 9 to 11 road deputies in the county, pretty much all of the deputies in the department. I live in a rural county, so that is typical. But what concerns me is a coordinated attack. I can see one school being used as a distraction while the other one is also hit. Once terrorists are inside, it would be hard to do much to them once they are in. Even though our SWAT team trains on dealing with school emergencies like hostage situations, how could they train to handle devoted terrorists? Or a group of terrorists that hit all of the school buildings in the two school districts?

I am not expert on tatics, but from what I observe, the defense that the districts say they have is mearly a formality of feel good thinking. Sooner or later a rural area will be hit, even if it is not as graphic or attention grabbing as what happened on 9/11. To be honest, terrorism in a rural school would be more shocking because it doesn't happen as much. That is what bothers me so much. If a city gets hit, it is a big target and can be expected to be hit because of its size. But if you hit a rural area here, and another there and still another over there, you break into the minds of people, showing them that nowhere is safe, not that anyplace is really.

Sooner or later the fight will come to the less populous areas because we are more vulnerable here due to smaller size and less budget for security.

If you enjoyed reading about "It's time for new thinking on guns in schools" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!