Why do alot of people say things like...


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effengee
September 5, 2004, 02:17 AM
"If you started shooting at a Bad Guy, you'll probably miss and hit somebody innocent or just get yourself killed"

As opposed to what?

Taking one in the back of the head because I was too busy complying with everything he said???

Watching my friends/family/fellow human being executed while I hid my firearm for fear of legal entanglement???

Respectfully, I must say screw that!
I'm gonna make his day a dying hell!

If I die defending someone or spend the rest of my life in jail for ridding the world of Mr. Bad Guy then it was worth it...
Many is the time I've heard of some repeat offender getting let free.
Why aren't we just executing them?
The Government won't even have to pay me to clear out the prisons...
Just line up the repeaters one at a time...

I'm a pretty good shot... Most gun owners are...
I'm no John Wayne or Annie Oakley but I can honestly say beyond doubt that against anything from the size of a soda can to a human target, up to a distance of 100 feet, I'm the most deadliest SOB they'll ever meet...

If you're going to carry a firearm but are not willing to use it makes me wonder why you have it in the first place...
Please don't carry solely for vanity, It's like those idiots who strap a Mt. bike or a Kayak to the roof of their BMW's and Saab's and drive around for months with no intention of ever using them... It just looks really cool...

I don't keep a fire extinguisher to go around fighting fires, but if one comes to me I have the proper tool to stop it...
The same with my firearm, I don't go around fighting crime, but if it comes to me, I have the proper tool to deal with the situation...

jimi

Celebrating my birthday and Patriots day on 9/11 by shooting Osama targets with my AK, how will you remember September 11th?

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monsternav
September 5, 2004, 02:21 AM
Remember: Most Liberals/Gun-Banners project their own fears on the rest of the world.

I will be remembering 9/11 by shooting an IDPA match.

RJ357
September 5, 2004, 02:54 AM
As opposed to letting the police do it, who only miss 4 out of 5 shots.

Sunray
September 5, 2004, 03:04 AM
"...Why do alot of people say things like..." Because their only exposure to firearms and shooters is from TV and movies. They just don't know any better.

Griff
September 5, 2004, 06:18 AM
First, explain the 4 golden rules to them. A lot of the antis I've spoken with are suprised to hear that we voluntarily police ourselves.
Maybe they'd like to find out what shooting's all about next time you go plinking? (in a controlled, professional, well-lit, public environment, of course)

Then consider their their initial argument that you'll miss what you're shooting at. With this crowd, I'd have to say "Not likely."

1911Tuner
September 5, 2004, 06:38 AM
Because an experienced man once noted:

"In a firefight, you'll do about as well as your worst day at the range."

Not always true for some of us. Very true for many of us. A distinct
possibility for all of us...even those of us who have been there, done that.

You can get an idea of how you'd do...just an idea, mind you. Run a 100-yard sprint as hard as you can run to get your heart and respiration rate up. Engage a target at 20 feet on signal while a friend throws handfuls of gravel at you from 20 feet as hard as he can throw. Put a time constraint
on hitting the target of two seconds from signal to shot...3 8-ring hits required to win...On the signal, move toward imaginary cover that is 10 feet away like your life depended on it. Make a 50 dollar bet with this friend that you won't miss.

Just to make it interesting, strip your shirt off so that your bare skin is exposed to the gravel. Let us know how you do.

Cheers!

Tuner

Baba Louie
September 5, 2004, 07:22 AM
Tuner,
You left out giving a pint or two of blood before the 100 yd. dash :D

effengee,
Why do a lot of people say such things?
Talk is cheap.
Ignorance knows no bounds.
They know not about "Survival of the Fittest" nor the Boy Scout motto "Be Prepared"
I'm a pretty good shot... Most gun owners are... The former is probably quite true... as to the latter, I have my doubts. Maybe 10%. Maybe less, judging from what I've seen over the years.

Griff
September 5, 2004, 07:26 AM
Thanks for sharing those lessons, Tuner. I'd offer to sit down and talk about it with you over a lister bag of coffee some day, but...;)

1911Tuner
September 5, 2004, 07:37 AM
Yeah! What Baba Louie said!:D Gotta get weak in the knees
before ya start. Wanna take a guess as to why?
____________

Griff said:

I'd offer to sit down and talk about it with you over a lister bag of coffee some day, but...

Yep...When ya get home from the land of Weinerschnitzel and Dark Lager, look me up. I'll put on the coffee and we can talk about anything but...that.:cool:

Cheers all! Guten day!

Tuner

Majic
September 5, 2004, 01:22 PM
edit

M2 Carbine
September 5, 2004, 01:46 PM
"effengee

Celebrating my birthday and Patriots day on 9/11 by shooting Osama targets with my AK, how will you remember September 11th? "
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Ya, me too. And many other days besides.:D

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/Bell406_206B/BuckandMod10.jpg

Hemicuda
September 5, 2004, 02:00 PM
Tuner...


Maybe not EXACTKY the same, but with Simunition, I was able to mozambique the BG about 7 or 8 times in 10, when trying different scenarios, before he was able to get any paint on me! (in a few tries, I took paint, but never COM or in the head!) and I only lost 1 scenario, and was shot BEFORE I got a shot off... (I STILL think he ambushed me, and shot BEFORE I knew he was there, negating the point, since sniping from total concealment will defeat ANYONES carry gun!)

some scenarios were after running, or while diving for cover, or both... ALL came as a surprise, and my heart WAS beating, EVERY time I saw a gun pointed in my direction!

Does this count as real-life style adversity training, Tuner, or do I still gotta get pelted W/ gravel? (I hope not, the road-rash from a couple of those dives hurt bas enough!)

Wildalaska
September 5, 2004, 02:02 PM
You can get an idea of how you'd do...just an idea, mind you. Run a 100-yard sprint as hard as you can run to get your heart and respiration rate up. Engage a target at 20 feet on signal while a friend throws handfuls of gravel at you from 20 feet as hard as he can throw. Put a time constraint

Next time I advocate shogun with buckshot for bear protection think of them words (add bowels loosening)

WildsprayandprayAlaska

JeepMaker
September 5, 2004, 02:12 PM
People don't say that, SHEEPLE do;)

And by the way, Hello, this is my first post/reply on this board, solidarity.

whm1974
September 5, 2004, 02:13 PM
Remember: Most Liberals/Gun-Banners project their own fears on the rest of the world.

I find this to be very true. Most Liberals and or Gun Grabbers are girly-men as well...

-Bill

sendec
September 5, 2004, 04:05 PM
from behind a keyboard. Unfortunately, life isnt as clean and neat as it appears on TV. I daresay the original poster has'nt been in a for-real gunfight. I have talked to those who have and none claim it was as neat, easy and orderly as we might wish.

Its easy to forget that any and every gunfight to one degree or another represent a failure on our part to see it coming or to handle a situation prior to it escalating to deadly force. The actual unavoidable gunfights that could'nt be resolved by other means are very rare. The best gunfighters are those that never get forced by adversaries or circumstances into having to take a shot.

Interesting comment about fear - IMHO I found conservatives as a whole to be much more fearful than non-conservatives. This board is an example, largely populated by conservatives who are fearful enough of violence to need to arm themselves, and many who have let that take a central role in their life and psychological landscape. That's second only to a fear of the U.S. Government. Ironic.....

sendec
September 5, 2004, 04:08 PM
!) No one is as good of a shot as they think they are.

2) Everyone could be a better shot that they are now.

I will never be as fast and accurate as I want to, but I can always improve.

Dbl0Kevin
September 5, 2004, 04:17 PM
Interesting comment about fear - IMHO I found conservatives as a whole to be much more fearful than non-conservatives. This board is an example, largely populated by conservatives who are fearful enough of violence to need to arm themselves, and many who have let that take a central role in their life and psychological landscape.

I think I'm gonna have to disagree with you on this one Sendec. There is a big difference between recognizing the fact that bad things can happen and wishing to be prepared for them vs. going around with your head high in the sky ignorant of everything around you such as most liberals are.

This isn't just with self defense situations it's with everything. You can just tell these types of people when you're driving down the road. They're the ones that aren't paying attention to their surroundings, waiting 30 seconds after the light turns green to go, slowing down to 3 mph in the middle of the road to make their turn oblivious to the fact that there are cars behind them. These people are in their own little world and don't believe that they can effect others and others can effect them. If in fact they wake up or are woken up by someone else they don't know what to do and they are the ones who say "don't resist" and basically freeze in emergency situations.

El Tejon
September 5, 2004, 04:20 PM
fng, people say that because they are projecting their fear and lack of rationale thought upon others and rationalizing their decision to remain helpless.

There is also the socialistic political dimension of making everyone equally helpless. You, as a gun owner (the capacity to cope), are a threat to the socialist vision.

Everyone is a good shot on the square range, shooting when they are comfortable, can see well, are not wounded, are not rolling around on the ground. Add realism into your training (or, heck, even go to school on a square range) and you will not be a good shot any longer.

The best indicia of good training, is never needing it. As sendec says, the goal is the sword of no sword.

sendec
September 5, 2004, 06:01 PM
You say fear like it's a bad thing. As long as a fear is rational and does'nt overpower a person it serves a vitally important purpose. See DeBecker, Gavin: The Gift of Fear, and Solomon, Dr. Roger: various papers.

I think that making a claim that "liberals are more (or less) fearful than non-liberals" is overbroad and does'nt diferentiate "good" fear and "bad" irrational fear. I really doubt that a person's political ideology plays a great role in their response to a crisis - we are just more likely to notice it in groups we dislike.

Now look at the number of times we see posts about SHTF, TEOTWAWKI, what gun is best for cougars/zombies/penguins and on.... How many of these represent a statistically realistic fear? Part of the non-liberal mindset does'nt allow us to view these sorts of topics as fears, but they are, by definition. Different people fear different things. We fear criminal attack and the government, if we did'nt we would'nt spend so much time and resources preparing for it. We may not interpret our motivation to do so as fear, because that threatens our self esteem (when it should'nt). Once we have prepared ourselves to an arbitrary point, we become confidant in our ability to master a situation and the fear either subsides, which is bad because it negates the good that fear does and results in overconfidence, or we acknowledge the fear while realizing it is essentially harmless.

WTH am I talking about? I've got to stop the Nyquil on an empty stomach.

ET - I've never said that. I wish I had, but someone else deserves the credit

:)

Chris Rhines
September 5, 2004, 06:04 PM
"If you started shooting at a Bad Guy, you'll probably miss and hit somebody innocent or just get yourself killed" Often because it is true.

I hear this kind of statement come up in two situations. One is from dyed-in-the-wool antis who know nothing about firearms and/or shooting. They can be discounted. The other is from other shooters, in response to what I sometimes call the Batman syndrome - "I have a gun, so I am empowered to intervene in every violent or potentially violent situation, even when it may not be smart to do so."

If I die defending someone or spend the rest of my life in jail for ridding the world of Mr. Bad Guy then it was worth it... That rolls off the tounge real easily. Particularly when one has a family of their own to take care of - tough to do from inside prison (or a coffin.)

I'm a pretty good shot... Most gun owners are... Most gun owners are terrible shots. A quick visit to any public range will confirm this. I was at the NRA Range in Fairfax this afternoon, and watched the guy in the next lane miss an 8" Shoot-and-See target at seven yards, shooting slowfire. The guy on the other side of me was somewhat better, but still missed a human-sized sillouhette target, shooting slowfire, at fifty feet. And this was on a warm, dry, well-lit indoor range, with no artifical stress, no time limits, nothing. This is about the median level of skill that I see outside the IPSC and IDPA communities - maybe I just live in an area known for poor shooting, but I don't think so.

I'm no John Wayne or Annie Oakley but I can honestly say beyond doubt that against anything from the size of a soda can to a human target, up to a distance of 100 feet, I'm the most deadliest SOB they'll ever meet... Sigh. You'll forgive me for being somewhat skeptical...

Listen, effengee, I'm not trying to bust your balls (too much,) but the overall tone of your post indicates that you haven't had much training in deadly force encounters. I urge you to seek some out - even a local NRA Concealed Weapons class. It will be an eye-opening experience.

- Chris

El Tejon
September 5, 2004, 06:04 PM
sen, O.K., I'll change that to "as sendec alludes to, the best fight is no fight, seek the sword of no sword.":)

M2 Carbine
September 5, 2004, 06:27 PM
sendec

Being in a Gunfight is Easy...
from behind a keyboard. Unfortunately, life isnt as clean and neat as it appears on TV. I daresay the original poster has'nt been in a for-real gunfight. I have talked to those who have and none claim it was as neat, easy and orderly as we might wish.

Its easy to forget that any and every gunfight to one degree or another represent a failure on our part to see it coming or to handle a situation prior to it escalating to deadly force. The actual unavoidable gunfights that could'nt be resolved by other means are very rare. The best gunfighters are those that never get forced by adversaries or circumstances into having to take a shot.

Interesting comment about fear - IMHO I found conservatives as a whole to be much more fearful than non-conservatives. This board is an example, largely populated by conservatives who are fearful enough of violence to need to arm themselves, and many who have let that take a central role in their life and psychological landscape. That's second only to a fear of the U.S. Government. Ironic.....
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endec,

I think you confuse fear with being prepaired.

Several times I've been so fearful at the controls of a helicopter that I was physically shaking but training, skill and sometimes mostly luck got me through.

Whether it's flying, gunfighting or driving your car you do the best you can to do it well but in any of these activities if you don't have a healthy fear of what might happen than, you don't fully know what you are doing.

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"This board is an example, largely populated by conservatives who are fearful enough of violence to need to arm themselves,
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You think this is a bad thing??

I don't fly an aircraft without preflighting it and I carry a gun.

Not because I'm constantly afraid of crashing or getting in a gun fight or because it's "a central role in my life and psychological landscape".

I am reasonably careful because that's the INTELLIGENT thing to do.

sendec
September 5, 2004, 06:54 PM
Chris,

You're a braver person than me touching on that accuracy comment. I guess all the good shots just have'nt been to the same ranges as i frequent. It must be all the liberals I hang out with, no doubt they put some sort of gravity warp into play on my range.

M2 - right there with ya, I preflight my lawn mower and keep a water filter by my toilet so we can drink out of the tank when the well fails. Preparation is an antidote to fear. Healthy fear is a good thing. The guys who "don't know the meaning of the word fear" are the ones that concern me. I generally try to get them to buy pre-need burial insurance as soon as possible, cause they'll need it before I do.

El Tejon
September 5, 2004, 08:35 PM
sendec, I think a lot of right-wing "fear" is merely escapism and the Peter Pan syndrome. Just look at THR! How many bear and puma threads are there ever week?

Even though the probability of encontering a bear outside one's imagination is 0.0%, tis better to talk about "which gun for bear" than think about all the problems of the office.

The other part of the "fear" is Peter Panism. I don't want to grow up and admit that there are no more dragons to slay so I will escape and prepare for TEOTWAWKI, SHTF or bears.:rolleyes:

Standing Wolf
September 5, 2004, 09:08 PM
Heck, the bad guy might even take away my gun and use it on me—but only in a leftist extremist's dreams.

38SnubFan
September 5, 2004, 09:17 PM
"In a firefight, you'll do about as well as your worst day at the range."

Well, I'd hate to be the BG then. My worst day at the range still had me leaving the large majority of my shots in the 8-ring or 9-ring, albeit most shots were down and to the left of the "X", due to still learning good trigger control with a DA revolver.

Either way, enough good hits will leave an attacker lying on the ground, bleeding badly. :uhoh:

-38

pwrtool45
September 5, 2004, 09:34 PM
tis better to talk about "which gun for bear" than think about all the problems of the office.

The other part of the "fear" is Peter Panism. I don't want to grow up and admit that there are no more dragons to slay so I will escape and prepare for TEOTWAWKI, SHTF or bears.

Says YOU!

Why, I was mugged the other day by two bears AND a puma! My new CCW is a .500 S&W magnum with a Para-Ordnance P14 as backup. You must be sheltered! When the end days come, I'll be the only one prepared for the roving gangs of bears and puma thugs and you'll be the one roaming about with your piddly little 9x19mm. We'll see, sir, we'll see!

1911Tuner
September 5, 2004, 10:31 PM
SnubFan said:

Well, I'd hate to be the BG then. My worst day at the range still had me leaving the large majority of my shots in the 8-ring or 9-ring...
_____________________

Outstanding! Now go try it while you're duckin' and runnin' for cover like a raped ape.

Different game when the target shoots back.

38SnubFan
September 9, 2004, 05:24 PM
Tuner,

Unfortunately, I haven't found a range where the targets "shoot back," nor would I want to. :what:

I don't think ANY of us will actually know how well we'll shoot until the SHTF, and then "success" is measured simply by being able to walk away from the stopped threat. "Failure" in the same case will be measured by the emergency crews carrying you away in a bodybag.

I do practice a lot by having someone with a stopwatch time me, to see how quickly I can draw, get on target, and pull off 5 shots into the target. I rate myself overall by both my speed AND accuracy.

Unfortunately, until I can find a training center/range that allows more of an IDPA-type competition/qualification drill in my area, this practice method will have to work for me for now.

Thank you for your concern though.

-38

effengee
September 10, 2004, 12:06 PM
I seldom stand at 20 feet and plug a single target unless I'm teaching a newbie the basics...

My training starts with a 20 minute workout including push-ups and jogging in place with a few football type exercises for good measure...
Then I try shooting multiple targets at varying ranges...
Palms sweaty, heart racing, breathing ragged...
Yeah, I get strange looks from the "traditional" shooters.
I also go to an old sandpit and set up "police" style shooting...
Moving to cover while firing, shooting at "hostage" targets, where there's a "don't shoot here" area covering a standard silhouette target...
I often play paintball and BB war with my friends...
Nothing like having an unpredictable target that WILL pop you if you give it even half a chance...
I consider the two head shots and four COM shots last week with no hits on me to be pretty good... But that's up to you to decide...
I don't know where you guys shoot, but here in Vermont, most everyone I range with hunts...
The prospect of not getting a clean shot has caused me to miss out on a few deer, but I only squeeze the trigger when I'm positive I can kill.
I chased my first deer for close to a mile before he bled out. And then and there vowed never again would I take a shot with so much haste.
No, I'm not a cop, ex-military, Batman or the Equalizer...
But I strongly feel that it is my obligation to protect my fellow human being.
I've met many veterans throughout the years.
I have no "hollywood" ideas about a real gunfight...
I'd hate to have to kill/be killed by someone for all the obvious reasons...

However, I still feel that if I happen to be getting a cup of coffee and some BG starts waving a shotgun in the face of my friend behind the counter,
I'm going to step in and attempt to disarm him...
Granted, it may not be the smartest/safest/best/legal way to deal with the situation, but to cower while hoping the police will handle it is beyond unacceptable.

Sincerely,
jim

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