Searing gun debate in this Christian forum!


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Min
February 20, 2003, 08:37 PM
Here's an excerpt:

QUOTE from a pro-gun person:
What do you think I own a weapon for? I have a Colt 1911 .45 ACP on my side right now, which I will carry with me everywhere today... even to Church tomorrow should I go. Do you know why I carry my 1911? For serious situations where my Christian soul may fall prey to a criminal who might desire to deprive me of life, liberty or pursuit of happiness. I'll kill him before I allow him to harm me or mine. That's pretty serious if you ask me.


Anti-gun response:
Well, based on your statement, I would say that it's either:

A. Sexual inadequacey
B.Paranoia and distrust of people
C. Delusions of grandeur


Under "God and guns" thread in General Faith Topics

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El Tejon
February 20, 2003, 08:44 PM
Oh, yeah, well, Lord Shiva carries a shotgun, not some sissy pistol!:D

Redlg155
February 20, 2003, 09:25 PM
I went there and checked things out. Talk about some folks with their heads in the sand!

I personally think that user "dafodil4s" has been sniffing a flower, but not daffodils. If I'm not mistaken the poppy seed flower is very similar in appearance. :D


Good SHooting
RED

El Rojo
February 20, 2003, 09:33 PM
Interesting thread. I posted.

Min
February 20, 2003, 09:38 PM
Here is the opening topic message:

I have a lot of firearms. It's a hobby. Does that creep anybody out? Should it?




Here is the 1st reply post:

Yup. Creeps me out. I can see no reason anyone who names the name of Christ needs a series of murder weapons unless they are a police officer or has some other legitimate need.

Making a hobby of guns and death is no better than making a hobby of forncation and rape as far as I call tell....



About that post all I can say is
:rolleyes:
"Making a hobby of guns and death is no better than making a hobby of forncation and rape as far as I call tell.... "
:cuss:


Thanks for posting el rojo

El Tejon
February 20, 2003, 09:57 PM
So the book of Numbers means what to these people?

The study of weaponry is ungodly? What about the tribe of Benjamin--the gun shoppe commandos of the Old Testament, "[a]mong all this people there were seven hundred chosen men lefthanded; every one could sling stones at an hair breadth, and not miss." Judges 20:16 (Obviously these guys should be over at the Rifle Forum), see also Judges 20:17.

"One of those who were with Jesus drew his sword and struck at the High Priest's slave, cutting off his ear." Matthew 26:51.

"'But now,' Jesus said, 'whoever has a purse or a bag must take it; and whoever does not have a sword must sell his coat and buy one.'" Luke 22:36.

Mark 3:27 and Luke 11:21?

Selective reading of Christianity? Shocking!:rolleyes:

MPFreeman
February 20, 2003, 09:58 PM
Them Crazy Christians...:),

MPF

El Tejon
February 20, 2003, 09:59 PM
Matt, that's it? "Crazy Christians"? You're the Biblical scholar here. Give us some help, will ya?

CGofMP
February 20, 2003, 10:07 PM
Here are a couple things from the web


http://www.ktc.com/personal/sirdavid/


http://www.frii.com/~gosplow/abible.html


This isnt about God but its interesting too:
http://www.shadeslanding.com/firearms/cramer.racism.html

Charles

spacemanspiff
February 20, 2003, 10:16 PM
i wouldnt say that debate is 'searing'...most seem to be all for gun ownership and responsible use of them to protect the innocent.

i get such a kick out of my mother telling me i shouldnt carry to church but has no problem with me carrying every other day of the week.

soooooo, because i live in and walk through a semi-rough neighborhood its okay to protect myself, but while i'm at church i shouldnt? Does Not Compute!

Don Gwinn
February 20, 2003, 10:45 PM
I can see no reason anyone who names the name of Christ needs a series of murder weapons unless they are a police officer or has some other legitimate need.


Um, OK. Seriously, I'm pretty sure this guy just said that police officers are murderers. . . . and that's "legitimate." Hmph. That's one way to go, I guess.

As hobbies go, fornication is not all that boring. It should surprise no one that a person who thinks consensual fornication is the same thing as rape thinks owning a gun is the same as murdering people for kicks. Whatever religion you try to wrap that in, it always sounds the same.

DeltaElite
February 20, 2003, 10:55 PM
God carries a Delta Gold Cup, so what's the big deal? :D

Ron L
February 20, 2003, 10:55 PM
I can't remember the exact verse, but we're called to be stewards of everything God has given us. That means caring for and protecting. My chosen means of protecting those things, AND PEOPLE, may be to carry a weapon. In any case, it's MY choice to do it as I see fit. We were also given dominion over all living things and, in my opinion, the most efficient and humane means to harvest an animal is with a gun.

illuminatus99
February 20, 2003, 11:01 PM
those two quotes from matthew and luke are often taken out of context, as much as I'd like them to support the RKBA they don't.

in matthew one of jesus's buddies cut off the ear of a guard, jesus told him that now is not the time and place to fight and healed the ear. in luke jesus told his men to get a sword so they would appear to be criminals since it was illegal for common folk to carry a sword, they needed to get caught so that was part of the plan.

the whole "turn the other cheek" thing is also misinterpreted by the other side, it was a metaphor for people insulting you,or a slap in the face, self defense was a whole different ball game.

casual
February 20, 2003, 11:30 PM
Hey, has anyone heard the quaint old saying "Thou shalt not kill?"

The point of the Commandment is that human life is not for the taking.

And if I need to shoot someone to make sure he doesn't violate it, I do believe I'm doing God's work.


rev. casual

BamBam-31
February 20, 2003, 11:43 PM
Last time I started the thread "god and guns" on TFL, the consensus was that "Thou shalt not kill" is not an exact translation. Instead, it is more accurately "Thou shalt not murder."

And, as Jay-Lo has taught us, self-defense is not murder.

Boats
February 20, 2003, 11:52 PM
If there is one thing I can't stand as much as an anti, it is people with a martyrdom complex.

Gordon
February 21, 2003, 12:08 AM
Gee thanks guys, I put the site in my favorites and I will spend endless hours raising hell with my Christian brethren! I don't like to get into faith discusions with anybody other than people of my faith as I am POLITE , being armed of course.:D

Blain
February 21, 2003, 12:19 AM
Remember the movie the Patriot?

In it a member of the militia goes to a church in order to recruit. The Reverend is opposed to it at first. Then latter on as all those who decide to join are exiting they see a shocking site!

The Reverend marches right out with them, gun in hand!

One of the guys asks with shock, "Reverend?!?!?"

His response is the classic....

"A sheperd must tend his flock.....and at times, fend off the wolves!"


!!!!!!!YEA!


GO REVEREND!


THAT IS A REAAAAAAAAAAAAAL MAN OF GOD

firestar
February 21, 2003, 12:20 AM
"Making a hobby of guns and death is no better than making a hobby of forncation and rape as far as I call tell.... "


And whats wrong with that?:D

TexasVet
February 21, 2003, 12:27 AM
Sure, and it is another of those nasty little KJV mistranslations, of which there are so many. (Bunch of illiterates working for you, Jamey boy! I mean they even got the FIRST sentence wrong). Actual translation is "Thou shalt not murder."
Get your point, however.

illuminatus99
February 21, 2003, 12:58 AM
if I remember right the direct translation was "kill from a hidden place" which roughly equates to "murder". there's plenty of biblical references to self defense being ok even if it kills the guy, in exodus right after the ten commandments it explicitly says that if someone comes into your home and you stike him so that he dies you are not to be punished.


12 "Anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death. 13 However, if he does not do it intentionally, but God lets it happen, he is to flee to a place I will designate. 14 But if a man schemes and kills another man deliberately, take him away from my altar and put him to death.

2 "If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so that he dies, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed; 3 but if it happens [1] after sunrise, he is guilty of bloodshed.

Archie
February 21, 2003, 01:05 AM
in luke jesus told his men to get a sword so they would appear to be criminals since it was illegal for common folk to carry a sword, they needed to get caught so that was part of the plan.

Would you care to defend that statement? Being an ordained minister and student of the Bible and Jesus for a very long time, I don't get the logic or the background.

makdaddy03
February 21, 2003, 01:21 AM
Im a law abiding Christian gun owner.:neener:

ahadams
February 21, 2003, 01:36 AM
my wife and I are conservative Anglicans who came out of a denomination which has some conservatives but a vast majority of new-age-off-in-space-OWG types which will go unnamed (but it's initials are 'episcopalian'...). One of the bits I found that makes the liberals flinch (right before they walk off muttering) is to tell them that I take the 'sword' reference in Luke 22:35-36 literally.

Minute_Of_Torso
February 21, 2003, 01:49 AM
The conservative (read: Bible believing) church in America has been infiltrated by the liberals (read: theologically liberal, not Bible believing) just like the politically conservative should probably now be more truly called "neo-conservatives." The pulpits of a nation are the nation's conscience . . . a lot of the pulpits no longer believe the Book they profess to teach so it's no wonder that the professing Christian is ignorant of most of the Book.

As was stated earlier, in the Hebrew it is "You shall not murder." Even before this (the Ten Commandments), God instituted human government with Noah after the flood by saying in Genesis 9:6, "Whoever sheds man's blood, by man his blood shall be shed, for in the image of God He made man."

There's another interesting quote that Christians should consider in Luke 22:35-36: And He said to them, "When I sent you out without money belt and bag and sandals, you did not lack anything, did you?" They said, "No, nothing." And He said to them, "But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one."

There's also the Old Testament concept of the "justified kill" in
Exodus 22:2-4 which is commonly misinterpreted but actually allows a man to defend his home and family with lethal force.

Throw in the book of Nehemiah where the workmen, every one of them, worked rebuilding the walls of Jerusalem with one hand while carrying a weapon with the other hand . . . and God blessed them greatly in their efforts.

Remember the words of David (you know, the kid who slaughtered the blaspheming giant Goliath and later became the warrior/prophet/King of Israel?) in Psalm 144:1, "Blessed be the LORD, my Rock, Who trains my hands for war, and my fingers for battle . . . "

If you will, forgive my sermonizing, but it irks me when people use Scripture for the purpose of preaching pacifism in the face of evil.

I choose to defend my family, friends, and any other innocent person from evil. If I happen to use a firearm to do so . . . that's between me and my God . . . He'll correct me later if need be.

Minute_Of_Torso
February 21, 2003, 01:56 AM
Quoating Illuminatus 99

those two quotes from matthew and luke are often taken out of context, as much as I'd like them to support the RKBA they don't.

in matthew one of jesus's buddies cut off the ear of a guard, jesus told him that now is not the time and place to fight and healed the ear. in luke jesus told his men to get a sword so they would appear to be criminals since it was illegal for common folk to carry a sword, they needed to get caught so that was part of the plan.

**********************************************
Archie's right . . . .

It is true that Peter's cutting off of the servant's ear was not what Jesus wanted, but it is not true that it was illegal for common folk to carry a sword. The Roman Empire was, in some ways, far less tyrannical than our own government. Many subject countries' citizens were allowed to be armed as long as they didn't participate in an open revolt. Every armed citizen was one less citizen who didn't need a Roman soldier for protection. The Romans were very interested in maintaining peace and order . . . even the Romans understood that an armed populace is a polite populace. However, if you or your buddies started a revolt it wasn't a question of whether or not you'd be allowed to carry a sword, it was a question of whether or not you'd be beheaded, burned at the stake, crucified, or thrown to the animals.

Besides, the Apostles and early church were persecuted to the point of death not for being sword-carrying criminals, but for refusing to stop preaching salvation in one God, Jesus the Jewish Messiah and for not partaking in saying, "Caesar is Lord" and instead coined the phrase, "Jesus is Lord."

MountainPeak
February 21, 2003, 02:17 AM
If there was a god and it spent time on the internet, daffodils4s would have been spamed to hell. I wonder if the 4s stands "for snorting"? Might explain it all!

ball3006
February 21, 2003, 03:56 PM
Guns and fornication. All that is need is a bottle of good whiskey to end up with a very enjoyable day.....chris3

spacemanspiff
February 21, 2003, 04:26 PM
it couldnt have been illegal for the 'common folk' to be armed, as nothing happened to peter when he cut off the ear of the guard. he wasnt taken into custody. and christ taught that his followers were to be in subjection to the laws of the land, so far as they didnt have to break any of gods laws. thats why he instructed them to 'pay back caesars things to caesar, but Gods things to God.' so why would he then encourage them to break a law by being armed?
the romans let the jews police themselves in matters pertaining to jewish law. only when a jew broke a law of the romans would the romans step in.

Scott Evans
February 21, 2003, 06:17 PM
The sword of Luke 22:36 was for the defense of the disciples after Christ’s death not for the disciples to defend Christ or to do battle while under His care. Christ clearly demonstrated in John 18 ( John’s record of the same events) that He had power, simply in speaking, sufficient to prevent His capture.

John 18:
2 And Judas also, which betrayed him, knew the place: for Jesus ofttimes resorted thither with his disciples.
3 Judas then, having received a band of men and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons.
4 Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?
5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.
6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.
7 Then asked he them again, Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth.
8 Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way:
9 That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.
10 Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus.

Christ demonstrates in the passage above that it is only in his willingness to go that they could take Him. Also, from the passage it seems more then clear that this demonstration of power was for the sake of the disciples as without such no request of the prisoner would be honored. So intense was the effect that even after an attack by Peter the disciples were not arrested.

The Bible and Gospels in particular are clear that Jesus went to the cross willingly, that God’s plan always had included His dieing in our place followed by His restriction. This was that time and that moment. As such armed intervention was not only unnecessary but unwanted so as God’s plan would unfold as it must for the hope of man.

As to the point of the two swords being enough … Jesus Christ, being God incarnate, had knowledge of all things, even those yet to come. This in mind He was well aware of what was necessary for the group of disciples in comparison to the actual threats they were to encounter over the next few days. This in no way diminishes the sound and prudent wisdom of making personal arms a priority above that of even warm clothing. Both in the saying of “buy a sword” and its priority above that of other essential items by Jesus clearly shows not only God’s approval of but also his desire that we be ready able and willing to defend our lives.


__________________

Trisha
February 21, 2003, 07:02 PM
Wars start over religions; who is "the most right."

As to the hoplophobic, irregardless of their religion, I ask the Goddess to protect them equally - and I'll work for understanding, to better facilitate their edification.

Where possible, of course.

:D

Trisha

Mark D
February 21, 2003, 07:19 PM
No commentary, just scripture...

Nehemiah 4:14
“After I looked things over, I stood up and said to the nobles, the officials and the rest of the people, “Don’t be afraid of them. Remember the Lord, who is great and awesome, and fight for your brothers, yours sons and your daughters, your wives and your homes.”


Nehemiah 7:3
“I said to them, “…Also appoint residents of Jerusalem as guards, some at their posts and some near their own houses.”

Psalm 18: 27-40
“You save the humble but bring low those whose eyes are haughty. You, O Lord keep my lamp burning; my God turns darkness into light. With your help I can advance against a troop; with my God I can scale a wall. As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the Lord is flawless. He is a shield for all who take refuge in him. For who is God besides the Lord? And who is the Rock except our God:? It is God who arms me with strength and makes my way perfect. He makes my feet like the feet of a deer; he enables me to stand on the heights. He trains my hands for battle; my arms can bend a bow of bronze. 35You give me your shield of victory, and your right hand sustains me; you stoop down to make me great. 36You broaden the path beneath me, so that my ankles do not turn. 37I pursued my enemies and overtook them; I did not turn back till they were destroyed. 38I crushed them so that they could not rise; they fell beneath my feet. 39You armed me with strength for battle; you made my adversaries bow at my feet. 40You made my enemies turn their backs in flight and I destroyed my foes.

Psalm 144: 1-2
“Praise be to the Lord my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle. He is my loving God and my fortress, my stronghold and my deliverer, my shield, in whom I take refuge, who subdues peoples under me.

Proverbs 22: 1-3
“A prudent man sees danger and takes refuge, but the simple keep going and suffer for it.”

Proverbs 24: 17-18
“Do not gloat when your enemy falls; when he stumbles, do not let your heart rejoice, or the Lord will see and disapprove and turn his wrath away from him.”

Ecclesiastes 3:1, 3, 8
3:1”There is a time for everything, and a season for everything under heaven”
3:3 “… a time to kill and a time to heal,”
3:8 “… a time for war and a time for peace.”

Ecclesiastes 4:12
“Though one may be overpowered, two can defend themselves.”

Admiral Thrawn
February 21, 2003, 07:23 PM
Ignorant naive fools. :rolleyes:

coonan357
February 21, 2003, 07:34 PM
whats really funny about it so of those so called christians have never read the whole bible , they are too lazy to , we have a few of them in our congergation at church , now it they only knew those Body guards that walk with our pastor at church carried G-22 's they would freak , ( our church is in a large musilum area of chicago suburbs thus protection ) but no see so no tell , and they don't know these people around pastor are licensed BG's they act like they are just people who like to talk to pastor ( pastor groupies??) I know several cops in our congrigation who are always packing and are always scanning , I myself would if I could (carry ) on the local of our church with these times amungst us . as for the do gooders I hate to say I am not perfect just forgiven , thus I have gun and may the lord forgive me if I had to take anothers life if they try to take mine . OH And delta , The big guy carries a COLT Sa in BMG 50 , not a 10 gold cup

Zander
February 21, 2003, 08:56 PM
Wars start over religions; who is "the most right."An interesting assertion, but not in the least valid unless you include 'atheism' as a "religion".

In the last century alone, more than 100 million innocent human beings were slaughtered because they were subjects of totalitarian governments run by fascists and communists. By no small coincidence, those governments/regimes took great pains to dominate people of faith like no others in their populations.

Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Castro...all godless tyrants whose only "religion" was maintaining the brutal and amoral power of the state.

I'd like to report that people of faith are no longer subject to the whims of such tyrants, but the sad truth is that they are to this very day. Imprisonment, torture, rape, slavery and murder are still used as the means of dominance by such sociopathic sub-humans.

Let's not attempt to subvert or rewrite history...

spacemanspiff
February 21, 2003, 09:04 PM
its probably more accurate to say that religion is a deciding factor in wars, and in the vast majority of such wars, religious elements support the war efforts, whether its priests blessing armies on either side of wars as in WWI and WWII, or supposed 'holy wars' waged in the middle east.

and thinking back to medieval times, the spread of christianity was linked to "civilized" nations/kingdoms invading the lands of the "infidels" and force feeding their faiths upon them.

chas_martel
February 21, 2003, 11:36 PM
Hey BamBam-31

Where does it say that?

I think it actually says "Thou shall not murder".

Big difference.

That is unless you read the King James version. And it is not exactly a faithful translation. Full of politics.

Texas Bob
February 21, 2003, 11:54 PM
I noticed no one pointed out that attackes "inside" churches have happened by "sick" people armed with guns to broadswords. It doesn't seem to "sink in" that you can be a victim anywhere you chose to be.

Gordon
February 22, 2003, 01:43 AM
After reading all the good posts by our guys I'll abstain and go do some useful gun scrubbing with my time.

MitchSchaft
February 22, 2003, 01:51 AM
Im a law abiding Christian gun owner

Me, too!:neener:

MitchSchaft
February 22, 2003, 02:32 AM
happy lesbian

How much you wanna bet Wiccan, too?

Pendragon
February 22, 2003, 03:10 AM
Sigh.

Its always the 2%ers that make things interesting.

Us with our logic, "them" with their irrationality.

I think the hardest thing to get people to understand in the church is that:

1. not everyone will believe and act according to the faith
2. even leaders and people of strong faith can fail or even chose to walk away.
3. the map is not the territory, the actions of people should not be considered the tennents of the faith
4. the church is most perfect and pure when unoccupied.

Pick an issue and it has been beat to death in the church: guns, makeup, dancing, music styles, dress, politics, money, etc.


There will always be the crazies in every group.

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