Became an armed citizen today...


September 9, 2004, 07:26 PM
Just wanted to let you guys (or those of you who remember me :)) know that I finally made it.

After jumping through numerous idiotic bureaucratic hoops and loops, waiting a looooong time and spending some considerable money on gun club and administrative fees I received my firearms permit last week.

I didn't really spend a long time shopping around as I soon found a rather nice offer. Say hello to my new SIG P228 :)

I got it new in perfect condition from a guy who fired it once and then kept it in his safe. I paid 700 € for it which might sound a bit much to you... but keep in mind that new SIGs usually start at 1,100 € over here.

Anyway, I'm quite happy with it (carried a P225 on duty for years) and can't wait for my next range trip... :) :)



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September 9, 2004, 07:46 PM
Congrats !!

SIG makes a VERY nice weapon. You are well armed .

September 9, 2004, 08:07 PM
Wow, that's a pretty one. :D

September 9, 2004, 08:21 PM
very cool i have one also do you get the 13 round mags over there?

September 9, 2004, 09:10 PM
So what are the laws in Germany? Sounds like you have some trouble obtaining guns?

September 9, 2004, 09:17 PM

Black Majik
September 9, 2004, 09:32 PM

Sounds like a nice pistol you got here. Do yourself a favor, ditch those plastic grips. I recently switched over to Hogue fingerless rubber grips and they completely changed the feel of the gun. For the better.

Have fun, its a great pistol. :)

September 9, 2004, 09:47 PM
Welcome to the ranks of the truly free.

- Gabe

September 9, 2004, 09:56 PM
Good on ya, dude!:D

joe sixpack
September 9, 2004, 10:11 PM
Good show, nice handgun indeed.

cheers, ab

September 9, 2004, 10:18 PM

I hope your enjoyment outweighs the frustration.

Dave R
September 9, 2004, 11:21 PM
Excellent choice. We would welcome a range report when you get the chance...

September 10, 2004, 01:40 AM

As Black Majik said, get some Hogue grips.

Can you keep it at home, and are there any restrictions?

September 10, 2004, 02:34 AM
Oh my -

been kinda wanting a sig for a while - they pretty. and i hear reliable.

Altho they gonna have to beat out my HK on that stance... <grin>

gratz on your accomplishment =)


September 10, 2004, 04:22 AM
Thanks, guys - I've been running around with a big fat grin on my face for days now.. :)

Yeah, I got the two factory 13-rounders with it and plan to try out the 20-rounders just because... :) We got no magazine capacity limits for handguns over here... therefore no neutered magazines around.

Gun laws are a bit tough over here, though; you have to be a member of a gun club for 12 months and regularly show up for training, pass a background check and a test regarding your knowledge of firearms. But I've done it all and am a happy camper now :)

Weapons are kept at home but you need a certified gun safe (mine cost about 50,- € :))

Hogue grips sound like a good idea... I was thinking about that, too.



September 10, 2004, 06:04 AM

Excellent choice, too! The P228 is an outstanding handgun. :cool:

September 10, 2004, 10:21 PM
Congrats troop,now enjoy your new purchase.


R.H. Lee
September 10, 2004, 10:25 PM
Glückwünsche ;)

September 10, 2004, 10:46 PM
I know it's probably a long shot but is there any chance to be able to carry concealed over in Germany?

September 10, 2004, 10:47 PM
Congratulations, the 228 was my first handgun, and I went on to acquire a 232, 226, 225, and 239 (my name is Mike, and I'm a Sigaholic:D ).

Due to the AWB expiring here, I just acquired 3 std capacity mags (no more gelded mags!!) for a reasonable price, and I feel sooooo good! My baby is whole!

Hogue grips are great (I have some on my 239), but you may also want to look at Nils grips [] - they're in your neighborhood and very good looking.

Carry on, troop!

Foreign Devil
September 10, 2004, 11:25 PM
You mean that's your only privately owned gun? Hard to believe the government trusts you to carry a weapon in the service but makes you dance just to buy a simple handgun.

Well you know how the saying goes: "Beware the man who only has one gun, he may know how to use it."

Happy shooting!

September 10, 2004, 11:33 PM
Nice pistol you've got there Trooper, congratulations. I have been lusting in my heart for a Sig 226 in .40 S&W at a local shop. Maybe after taxes next spring.

What are the laws in Germany as far as carrying for self defence? Is that even possible? What about armed self defence in the home?

Thanks in advance.

September 11, 2004, 06:27 AM
CCW in public is pretty much impossible for the average citizen over here. Permits are issued to those who can prove that they are considerably more threatened than the general public. Of course, being a celebrity seems to help, just like in NYC or LA...;) Both open and concealed carry on your own property are ok.

Cops usually have the opportunity to carry their service gun off-duty (hint: I'm soon going to be in law enforcement again :))

Self-defense laws are not that bad, actually. You can defend yourself with the amount of force that is necessary to end the attack (including lethal force, if needed). You are expected not to use more force than necessary to end the attack, but you don't need to resort to a means of defense of which you are not absolutely sure that it will save you.

You may not, however, inflict an amount of damage on your attacker that shows a clear disproportion to the loss or damage you fear for yourself, e.g. you can't use lethal force to protect your property. We also have no "My home is my castle"-doctrine, as you cannot automatically assume a violent intent from someone who simply enters your property (according to German law, that is...)

There is a provision for cases in which the defender uses excessive force to defend himself. If you can show that you were extremely frightened, overreacted for precisely that reason and crossed the boundaries of lawful self-defense, you still got a chance to get off (not very useful for me as I received law enforcement training and am held to higher standards :))

Foreign Devil, it's my first gun but it sure won't be my last... :) Just received an email from a former colleague of mine who wrote, "You're a friggin' maniac, what do you need a gun for? Just another freak who thinks he's John Wayne." I'll definitely buy some more toys for precisely that reason - to piss off antis :)

Next on my list are a good wheelgun and maybe a high-quality 1911 for serious bullseye shooting.



Nathaniel Firethorn
September 11, 2004, 07:16 AM
Trooper, congrats on your new Sig!We also have no "My home is my castle"-doctrine, as you cannot automatically assume a violent intent from someone who simply enters your property (according to German law, that is...)As I understand it, the "castle doctrine" is a little different. What it means is that, within your home, you do not have to try to retreat from an attack before using force. (The "castle" can also be the vaguer idea of a "dwelling," which can legally include any place you spend a lot of time, even temporarily: your business, hotel room, etc.)

There's also the "Make My Day" law in Colorado and some other places. That sounds more like what you said.

Of course, here in the Peoples' Republic of New Jersey, we have the "Dial 911 and Die, Then Your Widow Gets Sued" law... ( :fire:

Also regarding the case of Robert J. Clark, Jr:
Murder of alleged burglar is charged (Philadelphia Inquirer) (
"Neighbors support homicide suspect (Daily Journal, cached on Google) (

- pdmoderator

September 11, 2004, 11:07 AM
Congratulations! A very nice piece.

And there is something negative about John Wayne? Who's your friend wanna be like ...Pee Wee Herman??? :D :p

September 11, 2004, 11:50 AM

Oops, then I misunderstood what the castle doctrine was all about. BTW over here you are not obliged to retreat first. It might be tactically smarter in some instances but legally you don't have to retreat one millimeter if you are the target of an unlawful attack, no matter if you are in your own home or in public. The idea is that a law-abiding citizen has every right to stand his ground, and that this fundamental right is more important than possible injuries of the attacker that might result from a self-defense action.

What I meant was that you can only assume violent intentions on the attackers part if he makes a definite aggressive move or shows other sure signs that telegraph an immediate attack. A simple case of trespassing is not considered enough.

Oh, and there is no such thing like a civil liability for injuries sustained by a criminal in a self-defense encounter... :)


I don't find a negative thing about John Wayne :) But you know what his name stands for in liberal circles... My friend isn't really a typical liberal, he is more of an authoritarian (sp?). In his opinion most people are stupid, self-centered, unpredictable and potentially murderous and therefore need to be protected from themselves by a strong police state. His arguments get a little fuzzy when it comes to why the police is any more trustworthy than "civilians"...

He used to call me Tackleberry when we were in basic training. :) :)



Don Gwinn
September 11, 2004, 01:52 PM
Just out of curiosity, is your friend also German? I just can't figure out how a German can think a police state is a good idea.

September 11, 2004, 08:08 PM
Yep, he was with me in the Border Police. He's a weirdo, though...

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