[2dogs]

http://www.sierratimes.com/03/02/19/arpubgwv021903.htm

Veterans Group Questions Who Started the Kuwait Oil Fires
The Sierra Times
Published 02. 19. 03 at 19:34 Sierra Time




For the past six years, the American Gulf War Veterans Association have received numerous reports from veterans stating that US forces were responsible for the setting of the oil well fires at the end of the Gulf War. These testimonies are now being taken very seriously in light of recent revelations of the events that occurred during the first Gulf War.

Joyce Riley, spokesperson for The American Gulf War Veterans Association is quoted as saying: "There was intentional misinformation given to the American people to generate support for Desert Storm often created by advertising agencies such as Hill and Knowlton."

* Revelations regarding the "Incubator story," in which Republican Guard were reported to have thrown babies out of their incubators onto the cold floor turned out to be false and a "fraud on the American People."

* The St. Petersburg Times disproved the report of satellite photos showing a thousand Iraqi tanks amassing on the Saudi border.

* April Glaspie, US Ambassador, gave tacit approval to Saddam Hussein to invade Iraq by saying, "We have no opinion on.your border dispute with Kuwait."

* John Shalikashvilli, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and William Perry, Secretary of Defense wrote in a memo (obtained by the AGWVA) on May 25, 1994, "There is no information, classified or unclassified that indicates that chemical or biological weapons were used in the Persian Gulf." General Norman Schwartzkopf's NBC (nuclear, biological and chemical) logs (also obtained by the AGWVA) dated Feb. 27, 1991, and March 3, 1991, clearly disprove the above statement.

One veteran has now stepped forward and given a detailed account of how he and others in special teams, moved forward of the front, (behind enemy lines ahead of US forces), and then set charges on the well heads. "We were mustered into the briefing tent at which point a gentleman whom I first had thought to be an American began to brief us on the operation. I was concerned because he was not wearing a US uniform and insignias."

The information provided over a series of meetings with this veteran corroborates reports from other veterans who are totally unconnected with this individual. This testimony brings into serious question the integrity of the US government, as it provided information to the American public and military during the last Gulf War.

The American Gulf War Veterans Association is presently dissenting on the war and has been joined by The British Gulf War Veterans and Families Association. Riley states that: "Not only is it our opinion that the Department of Defense has not been forthcoming about the severity of our military's illnesses, significant concern is now being raised over the causation as well."

On the Web: American Gulf War Veterans Association

[Malone LaVeigh]

Now, y'all weren't gonna let this sink out of sight without any comment, were you?

[P95Carry]

To be honest - I have a hard time knowing what to believe these days!:( I do my best to maintain an open mind and try and consider all angles ....... but there is little that truly surprises me any more!

[jmbg29]

I'll be happy to comment.

http://www.gulfwarvets.com/cfs.htm

These phonies would do anything they could to poison the potential jury/vote pool in order to help ensure they're being compensated (quite fraudulently) for their imaginary maladies. In that regard they aren't any different than any other reparations group that I've ever heard of. They're phony as a 3 dollar bill.

None of the Gulf vets that I know personally have any of the "diseases" or "symptoms" that members of this organization claim to have. Some were frontline troops, some were in the rear with the gear. No symptoms.

"American Gulf War Veterans Association" strike me as the "fraud on the American People" that they accuse others of.

[Art Eatman]

I've been reading about conspiracies of one sort or another ever since JFK got shot. I've gotten to the point that if I weren't present, or I don't personally know the reporting person, I don't pay attention to it.

"Pick your conspiracy. It'll give meaning to your otherwise useless life." :D

Art

[Malone LaVeigh]

Ah, jmbg, are you refuting any of this?

* Revelations regarding the "Incubator story," in which Republican Guard were reported to have thrown babies out of their incubators onto the cold floor turned out to be false and a "fraud on the American People."

* The St. Petersburg Times disproved the report of satellite photos showing a thousand Iraqi tanks amassing on the Saudi border.

* April Glaspie, US Ambassador, gave tacit approval to Saddam Hussein to invade Iraq by saying, "We have no opinion on.your border dispute with Kuwait."

* John Shalikashvilli, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and William Perry, Secretary of Defense wrote in a memo (obtained by the AGWVA) on May 25, 1994, "There is no information, classified or unclassified that indicates that chemical or biological weapons were used in the Persian Gulf." General Norman Schwartzkopf's NBC (nuclear, biological and chemical) logs (also obtained by the AGWVA) dated Feb. 27, 1991, and March 3, 1991, clearly disprove the above statement. As Scotty said in the old Star Trek, "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me."

[jmbg29]

Ah, jmbg, are you refuting any of this? Well, we could go around asking which pot called what kettle black all day.

Were there phony Republican Guard stories? I seem to remember every major news organization and every "Hey, hey! Ho, ho!" maggot saying that the Republican Guard were invincible supermen. Are the news organizations trying to say that BS-ing people (in this case them) is unfair in some way?

The Saint Petersburg times you say? Bastion of modern urinalism? Hmmm....didn't they along with everyone else castigate GHWB and the United States military for the "Highway of DEATH"? Weren't they et al. along with Jihad Jim Mcdermott (D) WA, the ones saying that the "children" are being poisoned by the gazillion anti-tank rounds that we used to destroy thousands of Iraqi tanks?

Only a socialist could get "we approve of your slaughtering people" out of "we have no opinion", but then again, butchering people is what all socialists eventually get around to, isn't it?

General John Shalikashvilli didn't rat the troops and their plans out to the traitor urinalists? NO!

That they don't refer to General Shalikashvilli as such tells me all I'll ever need to know of their attitudes and loyalty.

Hey! While we are at this Gulf War thing, how about Tim McVeigh? He was a Gulf War vet. Should we have taken him seriously as well, simply because he was one?:fire: :fire: :fire: :fire:

Sandi WHO?;)

[Russ]

I figured it was tin foil hat time. There seems to be a conspiracy theories for everything. Unless the US govt. was secretly trying to get work for the US companies that put out the oil field fires, what was in it for the US? I really find it hard to believe they would do something like that.

The other stories who knows. The St Petersburg Times got the photos from Russian spy sattelites with "time and date stamps" on them. Given the Russian postion and dealings with Iraq, I think they could well have doctored those time and date stamps. I listened to someone from the Times on NPR and she said "why would the Russians do that?" Do you think maybe its because much of their country is run by criminals? In 15 years they go from the "evil empire" to our best friends? Yeah right. I'm still wary of them as I'm sure they are of us.

Who was there when the "Republican Guard" supposedly threw babies out of their incubators? No one you can trust I'll wager. Just another tall tale or maybe it did happen. We'll never really know for sure.

What's the old adage? Believe nothing you hear and only half of what you see!

[ahadams]

the lack of discernment (and *specific cites* for documentation) on the part of the vets group makes me strongly suspect an ulterior motive such as that suggested by jmbg. I also have to admit that, having worked as an intel analyst, I've had several instances where I was clearly able to see the absurdity of the premises behind various conspiracy theories. :barf:

At one point I tried to confront one of the conspiracy groups about this sort of thing and was told that either the people I knew who had been in decision making positions at the time had been forced to do *exactly the opposite of what actually occurred in the situation* OR I was actually a very weathy member of a secret world wide cabal that runs everything by pulling strings behind the scenes.:rolleyes:

when I pointed out the fact that I am a disabled vet whose limited income is easily documentable [if my wife didn't work we'd be below the poverty line, both of our cars are over 10 years old, even so we still haven't been able to afford to patch the roof where it leaks] the conspiracy er, advocates simply walked away shaking their heads, and refused to discuss it any further. Since they couldn't prove the facts wrong, they simply ignored them. :fire:

I used to get really upset at these sorts of folks, and sometimes still do when it comes down to obvious lies and manipulation of the types seen in the article at the top of this thread, however honest the intent of Sierra Times which published it on the net. On the other hand, I would submit that the fact that anyone at all buys these sorts of nonsense reflects a grave problem with our society: there is a substantial portion of the population which has become aware that not everything reported in the media is the truth. Indeed, not everything public officials say is the truth. Because of this, a small but substantial element of the population has decided to believe every accusation against the government. This tends to combine in some folks minds with the desire to have one overarching system which explains everything that goes on...never mind that only happens in the movies and on television; whereas in real life multiple competing groups are constantly working at cross purposes (or sometimes oblique purposes) to each other, and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.

sorry for the rant folks, guess this is just one of my pet peeves.

[Quartus]

I was concerned because he was not wearing a US uniform and insignias


:rolleyes: Oh, yeah. It's REALLY unusual to have CIA conduct breifings of U.S. spec ops! Oh, yeah, that would be cause for concern. :rolleyes:


Assuming such breifings took place.

(Uh, I've seen that done, and that was peacetime RESERVE duty!)



* The St. Petersburg Times disproved the report of satellite photos showing a thousand Iraqi tanks amassing on the Saudi border.


It's very hard to prove a negative. Just how did they "disprove" this report? Do they have testimony from the intel analysts on the job at the time, saying that no such pictures existed? Do they have satellite photos from another source taken at the same time? Just how would you prove something like that?


But my favorite part of this is the basic premise: In the last days of a war, we torched Kuwaiti oil wells to drum up support for a war that we were winning hands down, and which the American public was already supporting quite nicely.


Oh! <slapping head> I've got it! Bush had stock in the companies that would put out the fires and repair the wells!

(Course, last time I checked, Red Adair wasn't a publicly traded company, and neither was Bechtel, but what does that matter?)

[Destructo6]

Did that one Gulf War vet give a reason why they'd set fire to the oil heads? I can see why the Iraqis would do it, but I don't see any reason why we'd do it.

I'd bet you could find one Gulf War vet who said he was in a briefing with the aliens who actually performed the first round of air/space strikes to open the war.

[Atticus]

Oh puuulease!!!

1) The incubator story was supposedly concocted by a Saudi Arabian Princess. I'm sure the nice Iraqi's wouldn't do something like that though. But then again, maybe they didn't want to waste chem/bio agents so early in the war. The other ten thousand stories (and video tapes) recording attrocities were not fibs.

2) Define amassing. Thousand of Iraqi tanks were detroyed near the border. Were they dragged there from Bagdad?

3) The lack of an official statement by ONE US official regarding a border dipute with Kuwait did not mean, "Please invade ...help yourself", except to a Bush haters.

4) The current official US Government postion is that some US troops were likely exposed to chemical and/or biological agents. It is not known whether they were released intentionally or not.

5) The statement by the veteran who claims he blew oil wells is so ludicrous it doesn't even deserve comment. His name wasn't Tim Mcveigh was it? Why on earth would justification be needed at a point in the war when support was overwhelmingly in our favor. Our Government does the occasional stupid thing, but they are not that stupid.

[Atticus]

"I can see why the Iraqis would do it,.."

It is consistant with "Scorched Earth Policy". Why did they kill every man, woman, child, goat, chicken, etc. in the Kurdish villages. Eastern ways very rarely seem rational to the western sense of logic or fair play.

Without exception, the US has helped those we've defeated in War to rebuild. The US bashers, both here and abroad are clutching at straws to make us look bad. Let history speak for itself.

[jmbg29]

Malone?....Buehler?.....Buehler?.....


Sandi who?;) :p

[mons meg]

As to the oil fires, it wasn't me. So there goes that theory. :)

[Porter Rockwell]

So, there it is then!
If the government/TV says it, then it must be true!
Rickety churches become compounds, nuclear testing on American soil is safe and duct tape and Saran Wrap will protect you from the bad terrorists!
LMAO!
Ya'll make sure your kiddies keep good attendance at the local taxpayer funded indoctrination centers where they're rewarded for narcing mommy and daddy.

[jmbg29]

If the government/TV says it, then it must be true!Believing in the veracity of a thing because the "government/TV says it" would be just as idiotic as believing something only because someone other than "the government/TV says it".

Now if a group of notorious malingering malcontents want to say that the U.S. blew up oil fields after the war was 9/10ths over - in order to drum up support for the war - that's their business.

If people like our friend Malone want to believe that our "blood for oil" oligarch masterminds are willing to burn up that oil in order to profit from it going up in flames, well, that's their business.

OTOH if they want me to believe it, they have to make their case in such a way that I don't double over laughing at their idiocy.

Sandi who?;)

[Blackhawk]

I'm disappointed. It took all these years to hatch the conspiracy theory that the U.S. torched the well heads.... :rolleyes:

[jmbg29]

:D

[Mike Irwin]

Aliens from Area 51, obviously.

[jmbg29]

http://smilies.crowd9.com/contrib/edoom/spacecraft.gif

[Leatherneck]

:D :D :D

TC
TFL Survivor

[Intune]

Game, set, match. Duct tape, plastic and most importantly, Tinfoil!

[Malone LaVeigh]

Gimme a break. Some of us have a life.

I don't know anything about that specific allegation, but don't see why it shouldn't be taked seriously. The government and media DID, in fact, lie to us about all of those other things. And that's just a few examples. I'll try to get back to this tonight to look up some references, I've certainly come across a lot from reliable sources. But this weekend is heavily impacted by parental responsibilities.

[Sir Galahad]

Reliable sources? You mean, like Mother Jones and High Times?:rolleyes:

[Atticus]

Attached is a map indicating where Iraqi Armored divisions were engaged. Perhaps not ON the SA border, but close enough.

[Ryder]

It seems strange that Iraq waited until the very last minute to torch the land rigs yet they took out the gulf rigs at the first sign of agression.

That gulf rig was a strategic position. If Iraq destroyed the gulf rig why didn't we suspect they would also destroy the land rigs and take steps to protect them?

Do you hear hear what the gov't says in condition white? Yellow? Or red?

[Zander]

I don't know anything about that specific allegation, but don't see why it shouldn't be taked seriously. -- MLIllogical...and stunningly so.

[TexasVet]

ONE Gulf War vet. Like the ONE Korean War vet who broke the massacre at No Gun Run? The one who, it turns out, wasn't even a COMBAT soldier. The one who never got within a hundred miles of the non-existant event he "eye-witnessed"?
So who is this ONE vet?
And why should we believe him over the stuff we saw live on TV when it was actually happening?
For that matter, why should we believe those who think EVERYTHING the Gov says is a lie?
Trust no one, but do your own research and remember Occam.
The simplest explanation is virtually ALWAYS the right one.

[Cactus]

Originally posted by Ryder:
That gulf rig was a strategic position. If Iraq destroyed the gulf rig why didn't we suspect they would also destroy the land rigs and take steps to protect them?

How was the US supposed to protect these oil rigs without holding the ground. Even if we knew they were going to torch them, and I recall reports of that fear, at the time we could do nothing. By the time the US forces captured the ground that contained the drill rigs, the Iraqis had already torched them!

Originally posted by Ryder:Do you hear hear what the gov't says in condition white? Yellow? Or red?




:confused: :confused: :confused:

[David Park]

If you're a Gulf War vet currently suffering from the horrible effects of burning oil well "second-hand smoke" :rolleyes: , there are probably a bunch of lawyers willing to take a break from their anti-tobacco/asbestos/Nutrasweet/etc. business to take your case. However, you need somebody to sue: the person who started the fires. Filing suit against Saddam is like squeezing blood from a stone, but the U.S. gov't is a much juicier target. If you merely claim (not prove) they started the fires, that's grounds for a suit, and the lawyers make money even if you don't eventually win. Sounds like a good enough reason to concoct this story to me.

[Malone LaVeigh]

Good source on the incubator and buildup-on-the-border lies:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0906/p01s02-wosc.html

More good background stuff:

http://www.independent.org/tii/content/events/f_macarth.html

Zander:

quote:I don't know anything about that specific allegation, but don't see why it shouldn't be taked seriously. -- ML
Illogical...and stunningly so.In case you missed it, there was another sentence after the one you quoted. Who's illogical?

[jmbg29]

In case you missed it, there was another sentence after the one you quoted.This other sentence?The government and media DID, in fact, lie to us about all of those other things.So say you and a few other folk. So what? How does that make it fact?Joyce Riley, spokesperson for The American Gulf War Veterans Association is quoted as saying: "There was intentional misinformation given to the American people to generate support for Desert Storm often created by advertising agencies such as Hill and Knowlton."These folks are asking people to believe that we were starting Kuwati oil fires to drum up support for a war that was practically over. You want us to take it seriously?

In the famous words of Bugs Bunny, "HaHa, HoHo, it is to laugh.":rolleyes:Who's illogical?Long list, but take heart, you are near the top. :p

Sandi who?;)

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Well considering that Tariq Aziz himself commented about Glaspie and Kuwait by saying:

"She didn't tell us anything strange. She didn't tell us in the sense that we concluded that the Americans will not retaliate. That was nonsense you see. It was nonsense to think that the Americans would not attack us. In the early hours of the 2nd of August, the whole apparatus of the leadership took precautions for an American speedy immediate retaliation."

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/gulf/oral/aziz/2.html

Now if Iraq's minister of information is willing to go on record saying that Glaspie never made such a comment, you have to ask yourself why certain groups keep wanting to perpetuate that myth.

[Tamara]

Any time I hear somebody start making claims about being a "specops veteran", "attending secret briefings by shadowy figures in mufti" and going on "special special super-secret missions he can't tell you about", my BS detector goes crazy. I want unit numbers, I want dates, I want names, I want to see DD214s.

Did you know that the entire Vietnam war was fought by SEAL sniper Ranger LRRP Force Recon Green Berets? It must've been, because I've met hundreds of them and only one guy who drove a radio in the rear with the gear... ;)

[TexasVet]

__________________________________________
If you're a Gulf War vet currently suffering from the horrible effects of burning oil well "second-hand smoke"
__________________________________________

Exactly, David. Another interesting point is that the hundreds of oil field firefighting specialists who spent about 6 times as long amidst the smoke and fumes than soldiers did, had exactly ZERO incidence of "Gulf War Syndrome". None. And that includes Americans, Brits, French and several other nationalities. The guys I knew in Houston who worked for Boots and Coots would laugh out loud when asked about the dangers, aside from the obvious dangers of nitro, flame and heat.

[Leatherneck]

Tamarabecause I've met hundreds of them Strangely, I've been noticing a marked increase in the number of Vietnam vets as well; and especially heroic ones. :rolleyes:

TC
TFL Survivor

[Atticus]

One lie does not a pack make. So a fifteen year old girl lied, and perhaps she was even coached by a PR firm. That's a shame, but one lie does not mean that a thousand attrocities were not committed or a thousand truths weren't told. Look what is going on right now. Obvious truths don't seem to have any effect on the UN. Maybe that girl (or her parents) understood the UN better than we do.

Regarding the tanks amassing on the border: Just how difficult would it be for the press to get a hold of a photo of empty desert. Sounds like the DD might have played a joke on them. "You want some classified satellite photo's...here ya go"
There is absolutely no doubt that Iraqi armoured divisions were within 100-150 miles of the Saudi border AND WERE IN KUWAIT - so what's the point?

This kinda stuff say's a lot about the anti-Government types (or at least anti- conservative Government types). I'm amazed they couldn't be a little more creative after having a dozen years to dream something up, especially considering the magnitude of the political and military operations. I'm even starting to hear stories from my leftist friend at work about Prescott Bush and his financial dealings with the Nazi's....jeeeeez, talk about clutching for straws.

[Quartus]

I want unit numbers, I want dates, I want names, I want to see DD214s.


I can give you mine, but it was just Reserve peacetime duty. Fun stuff, though! Gettin' paid to shoot things, with no danger of anyone shooting back! :D


Hey Malone, I'll stick my hand high in the air here and volunteer to to be flamed:


I agree with you. The gummit lies to us. Regularly. I don't trust 'em any further than I can throw Rosie ODonnel by the eyebrows.



But this story is still laughable.