[Drjones]

OK. Rather than start a ton of different new threads, I'll post everything here.

My liberal, anti-everything "professor" (sorry, jmbg!) said that next class meeting (tues) we are going to be discussing these various issues:

1. Bush administration is "all about going to war." He said that some international council or tribunal "found" that to be true. I believe he's referring to this article: http://www.counterpunch.org/leopold02192003.html as he brought up some of the points made there.

See also this thread: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9980

2. We are being "made to fear" Iraq & Saddam. Specifically, he mentioned how some leaders have said that "we need another enemy to fear."

Some other points he brought up and misc. stuff:

3. Iran has WMD also and is a threat to the US, says my prof, yet we don't do anything about that.

4. He goes ad hominem on Bush. A LOT. I called him on it the other day when he was talking about (sorry I forget which bush) Bush and his ties with Goldman Sachs and some Tanzania incident in which people were murdered. I asked him, "Other than trying to discredit Bush's character, do you have a point?"

5. I REALLY want to ask him if he would still be against the war if Clinton or some other demo was in office.

6. I really want to ask him if he was so strongly against the first Gulf war, as well as the other countries we've gotten involved in like Yugoslavia.

*sigh*

Thanks for the help guys!!!

Drjones

[jmbg29]

(sorry, jmbg!)It's your money and time that he is wasting, not mine. :(

[jimpeel]

Try:

http://cato.org/

http://www.heartland.org/

http://www.aynrand.org/ssg/ammunition.html

http://www.cityfight.org/capitalism.htm

http://www.capmag.com/

[Blackhawk]

If he says Bush is "all about going to war," ask him about the tax cuts last year (Did you get a refund, or did you not pay any taxes?), 9/11, etc.

You're probably wasting your time, but it sounds like you're already a significant irritant to him. :neener:

[Skunkabilly]

You can get in your prof's hair as much as you like but stay in good graces with your TA!!!

Unless everything is multiple-guess than anything goes!!!!

[BigG]

Doc:

You may be trying to whiz up a rope. Your garden variety verminus perfessorius is a card carrying member of the People's Democratic Party of the USA. He stopped thinking about reality years ago.

[The Reaper]

1. So a couple of guys who studied the issue of Iraq and came up with a solution are warmongers? They belonged to a right wing think tank. What conclusion would anyone expect. Does this "evidence" comprise a "full-fledged lobbying campaign" as the author asserts? Not in my book. If it is I and many on this board had better register as lobbyists.

I noticed that the piece had links to the Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz letters, but we have no such info on the Clinton response. We are asked to believe an unnamed aide's comment as to what Clinton's response was to the letter.:scrutiny:

We are also asked to believe that Clinton was busy breaking up Al Queda et al while again no evidence is presented. In fact since 9/11 we know that Clinton was unsuccessful in his efforts if there really were efforts.:scrutiny:

BTW if you research you can find what Clinton did do to try to prevent terrorism.

Seems like they shovel it out for the true believers. There are nuggets of truth, but there are also some leaps that I just cannot make.

2. "Leaders" can say what they want. It is up to people to think. Granted a lot of people seem incapable of this simple feat, but still their responsibility. No one can make you fear something you don't want to fear.

3. He has made the allegation, ask for him for resources where these "facts" may be verified. Who says we are ignoring Iran?

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Jun2002/n06212002_200206213.html

http://usinfo.state.gov/topical/pol/arms/stories/00092803.htm

http://usinfo.state.gov/topical/pol/arms/stories/00100501.htm

4. Again, where can his facts be verified. Critical thinking requires that we receive facts, we do not blindly follow. Isn't critical thinking something that a college education is supposed to teach?

5&6. Ask him about Somalia and Bosnia.

I suspect your prof also reads here.

http://www.angelfire.com/ok5/pearly/htmls/ash-fear.html

If you intend to refute his positions, then you had better research your arguments and present references that support your position. It is also a good idea to research his position and know it to anticipate his next assertion.

As to how far you are willing to push your prof. is up to you. I don't know how much influence he can have on your grade or ability to graduate. What course is this again?

[Baba Louie]

Reaper,

It began as "Ethnic Studies", but I'm not sure how these topics all relate to ethnic studies.

Drjones, look up Hussein's treatment of the Kurds and see if you can (maybe not back your prof into a corner but....) ask him how he feels about, no wait, what he KNOWS about it, is it good/bad or what?

Maybe throw in the same issue relative to the so called Palestinaian/Israeli ethnic clash and/or the African fiasco of the 90's in Rwanda where one tribe prevailed over another... if you want to actually spend class time discussing Ethnic Studies and the inevitable clashes that come up between differing cultures.

Then you may point out that this upcoming conflict IS actually a prime example of a clash of two (or more) cultures from several points of view. (War makes great classroom topical discussion for learned men who don't do any of the fighting)

Is it a business situation (France and Germany providing goods and material to Iraq, thus their feet dragging)?

Maybe one religion against another?

Main power in the Mid-East?

What about Turkey and their actions/thoughts in regards to the Kurds within their own borders and the implied liberation of the Kurds in Northern Iraq along with the turmoil that a free independent nation of Kurds would cause (keeping it cultural of course) and how Tukey wants to make sure that no NEW nation or borders will be drawn up.

Let him rail on about Bush, but keep trying to steer him to relate his rantings to the study of ethnic cultures, be it economic, religious, language, etc.

Maybe it IS about Oil... (if you agree with him initially and argue yourself out of that point, its a great moment, if you've done your homework...works for anti-gun types too)

Well, you get the picture.

Keep it (or try) in context to E.S., keep your cool, ask questions when you already know an answer (there's hardly ever just one answer), continue to challenge him keeping it calm. Don't go outside the class' envelope (of study), just stretch it a bit.

Have fun with it. talk to some of the TA's and get their input as well before you light into him.

Better yet, have your study group (or three or four friends) each ask one or two pointed questions, making sure that you sit apart from each other.

Adios

[Baba Louie]

Rather than one long post...

jimpeel may be on the right track as well drjones. Capitalistic individuality vs a collective hive mind as a starting point for E.S. discussion. Hmmmm.

(interesting links jimpeel... thanks)

A totalitarian Dictator vs. an Elected Capitalist may be the simplest scenario to pursue. Ask Prof, which is better (remember the old anthropromorphism here tho) and why? Based on his... what? Logic? Readings? Writings? Life Experiences? Cultural background?

How many native Kurds were killed by Hussein within his own country? Why?

How many Kuwaitis were impacted by his claim of their nation a while back? Why?

Same thing relative to Iran/Iraq War. Why was that war fought, who won, how many died?

Compare that to GHB/WJC/GWB/America's regime during the same time frame. What wars, how many killed, (again) why?

When the chips are down, why is it always the US that others look to?

How many people Want to come to America, legally or otherwise...vs. how many people want to become an Iraqi subject or move there for work, legal or otherwise?

Why? (I love that question) Then listen. You can only learn by doing and listening...not while talking.

Make sure to thank him for his erudite discourse at the end of each really good discussion (he won't know if you mean it or not...act like you mean it).

If you really want to learn more (about the way he thinks) go to his office and continue the conversation(s) in a one on one, or include the TA's or a member of your study group/friends.

You may actually learn something. If not Ethnic Studies, then about dealing with those in power (or who think they are).

I envy you in some ways.

Adios

[BigG]

Isn't critical thinking something that a college education is supposed to teach? (snort) You're joking, right? :p

[Quartus]

He stopped thinking about reality years ago.


:confused:


"Stopped"?



Go get 'im, Jones. You aren't likely to sway his thinking, but there are many skulls full of mush in the class with you, and THEY are your real targets. Show this idiot up for what he is, and some of them might just start thinking.

[Guy B. Meredith]

#5 sounds good.

Oh, by the way, did Clinton's preemptive strike on the training camp cause September 11? Did Bush? Hmmm. Sounds like the war was brought to us and Bush is reacting as required.

Now if Bush did not attack Iraq and Iraq did give WMD to terrorists which were (for least damage to our society) turned loose on streets full of anti war demonstators would everyone fault Bush for not acting on intelligence information and for not doing anything?

Everyone except Bush is acting on assumption and personal agenda rather than facts. Bush may not even be acting on facts, but he is one of the few that is likely to have all the facts.

[Drjones]

Everyone except Bush is acting on assumption and personal agenda rather than facts. Bush may not even be acting on facts, but he is one of the few that is likely to have all the facts.

I agree, but that's another point my "prof" argues: That the govt. controls the information available to the public, thereby using control of info to lead the public to its desired ends.

So if we agree with that, he's REALLY reaffirming the argument that the anti-war protesters are acting on nothing but personal political motivation, emotions, and following the herd, right?

[Guy B. Meredith]

The government is not homogeneous or monolithic--it is not a single minded creature that will carry on the type of progrom he would describe. The competition for power within the government and their catering to whiney media liberals see to that.

It is, however, convenient for him to describe it in such terms for his purpose.

Or let's put it another way. I was part of the military intelligence community. This community recycles every 2 to 4 years with normal tours of duty. Likewise the government. It would take a conspiracy of an incredible part of our population for the creature your professor describes to exist. He regularly eats cow pies.

[BigG]

So if we agree with that, he's REALLY reaffirming the argument that the anti-war protesters are acting on nothing but personal political motivation, emotions, and following the herd, right?

Sounds like you got im, Doc, but don't expect him to love you for it! :cool:

[Drjones]

He regularly eats cow pies.

And spits them back out at us. Splendid.

You aren't likely to sway his thinking, but there are many skulls full of mush in the class with you, and THEY are your real targets. Show this idiot up for what he is, and some of them might just start thinking.

Actually, the other day when I walked in, there was a group of students talking about how they think this class is his personal "group therapy" with the way he rants at us.

There is also a member of the Air Force (ROTC perhaps?) in our class.

I really don't think that most of the class agrees with him. As I think I said above, they seem to just tolerate it (barely) and just sit and wait for it to end.

[Drjones]

And really though:

If he's going to argue that the "govt. controls all information to try to rally us to war", then couldn't I just ask, "Well how can the anti-war side claim to have a better grasp of reality then?" (Or something to that effect...)

Its as if he's claiming we're both drinking from poisoned water, but I'M the sick one! :rolleyes:

[Guy B. Meredith]

Uhh. I DID get a bad grade in that English class for being 'right'. Do you really want to do another ethics class? This could become a career--reforming liberal professors, that is.

[jimpeel]

The mindset of this type of Liberal hack is; if America harms a single Iraqi child, she is a terrorist, yet Saddam Hussein can slaughter Iraqi children at will and that is just fine because we know what he is.

Sound familiar? Go back to the Clinton days and recall his backers who said "We knew what he was when we voted for him -- twice."

These are the same people.

[Russ]

I used to get the old ultra liberal, communist view point from some of my college professors. Particulary in Political Science. I found it best to bite my tongue and do what it took to get a decent grade. In my proression, getting hired depended alot on your GPA so I just went with the flow. Argue with him or her and you'll just piss them off and end up with a bad grade. Anyway, do you really think they give a rat's rear what you think? My guess is no. I never gave one for what they thought either. I knew their bias and it didn't change what I believed.