NRA endorsement for Bush in 5...4....3....2....


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Bobarino
September 13, 2004, 05:14 PM
right? weren't they withholding their endorsement until the AWB expired? how long do you suppose they will wait?

Bobby

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M2 Carbine
September 13, 2004, 10:15 PM
I don't think the NRA should endorse President Bush.

In four years he has done nothing for the gun owners that had a big hand in getting him elected and he even said he would sign the AWB.

I'll continue to vote for him but not because he has been a friend to gun owners.

I didn't think he would do much for us but I thought he and the Republicans would throw us gun owners a bone or two.

He and the Republicans have been a big disappointment.

What's it been, 25, 35 years that we have been saying if only the Republicans can get control, our country will be given back to us.

Well, the great hope is here and they suck.

President Bush was the first Presidential candidate I voted FOR in years.
Now I'm back to voting AGAINST the other guy.

Dbl0Kevin
September 13, 2004, 10:33 PM
M2 I honestly don't understand how you can say that. When is the last time that a gun control has been rolled back? It hasn't been since the FOPA of 86 which also included the machine gun ban. Pres. Bush has pushed for Gun Maker Lawsuit Protection and has had the Justice Dept state the second amendment is an individual right. Also if anyone thinks that he really wanted the AW ban to be rewnewed they are mistaken. It's obvious he was just playing it safe and working behind the scenes to see it die.

buy guns
September 13, 2004, 10:47 PM
didnt he also get ccw in texas?

Dbl0Kevin
September 13, 2004, 11:01 PM
didnt he also get ccw in texas?

Sure did

M2 Carbine
September 13, 2004, 11:15 PM
I don't look at letting the AWB sunset as a big victory.

Other than the Hi Cap Mags it's nothing but a few cosmetic features on our AR, etc.
Now we can put bayonet lugs on our "assault rifles", big deal.
The AWB sunsetting irritated the anti gunners, which is always a good thing, but all we are getting back is peanuts.
I expected some meat and potatoes when "our side" finally got in.

Reinstate Form Ones for automatic weapons or something like that and then we have won something.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Pres. Bush has pushed for Gun Maker Lawsuit Protection"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Are gun makers still getting sued?




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"has had the Justice Dept state the second amendment is an individual right"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And what has this done for us?

Can a gun owner in any of our "People's Republic of -------" states say I've got some of my gun rights back because "the Justice Dept stated the second amendment is an individual right".


Sorry, but I'm in Texas and was overjoyed when President Bush was elected and I still back him, but he has been a big disappointment to me as a gun owner.

M2 Carbine
September 13, 2004, 11:21 PM
buy guns

didnt he also get ccw in texas?
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Ya, he said while campaigning for Governor he would sign the CHL if it got to his desk and he did.

That's one reason I'll always continue to vote for him.

And it's also one reason I expected him to be a champion for us gun owners.


There was even jokes going around that the NRA would have their own office in the White House.:D

Bartholomew Roberts
September 13, 2004, 11:27 PM
President Bush has done nothing for gun owners? What about these?

1. UN Small Arms Restrictions blocked by US

2. Attorney General declares Second Amendment is individual right - reverses 35 years of previous Justice Department doctrine on the matter.

3. Attorney General refuses to allow legitimate purchase of NICS data to be used for fishing expedition - Ashcroft stops grabbers from sifting through NICS data of legitimate purchasers to look for "terrorists".

4. Ashcroft changes NICS data holding from 90 days to 1 day - NICS data on legitimate purchases will now be purged from the system in a single day as the law intended rather than being held onto for 90 days per Clinton policy

5. Bush supports and will sign lawsuit preemption bill

6. Bush ends taxpayer funding of useless HUD gun buybacks

7. Signs bill arming airline pilots. Signs bill closing loophole that prevented cargo pilots from being armed

8. Signed the appropriations bill containing the Tiahrt Amendment that protects gunowner privacy by making item #4 the law of the land.

9. Gets chance to have several things he claims to support (lawsuit preemption, gunshow background checks, semi-auto ban) on a single bill. Sends letter to Congress asking them to consider only lawsuit preemption.

10. Partially repeals Clinton ban on import of some semi-auto firearm parts instituted in Summer of 2000 to allow import of parts for repair purposes. Doesn't repeal any Executive Orders relating to guns instituted by previous Presidents.

11. His party bucked polls showing 68% of the public wants the ban renewed and killed it not once; but three separate times. All the antis are blaming him for the ban sunsetting... it looks like certain gun owners are the only ones not willing to give him credit for it.

DragonRider
September 13, 2004, 11:44 PM
I think we also had to give him the first term as time not to upset TOO much the boat. No such worry on the 2nd term.

John

4v50 Gary
September 13, 2004, 11:44 PM
Better neutral than anti-gun like Kerrorist.

Dbl0Kevin
September 14, 2004, 01:19 AM
I don't look at letting the AWB sunset as a big victory.

That statement absolutely blows my mind! The AWB going away is a HUGE victory for our side and the antis know it. Name me one other instance where such a law had such massive, though ignorant, public support and yet was beaten? I sure can't think of one. As for not getting anything back I would say being able to get magazines over 10 rounds for less than $70 would be a pretty big thing .......unless you're as rich as John Kerry and that's pennies to you. Also folding stocks and the ability to put a class III suppressor on a semi-auto are other things we regained the right to have.

But most important overall is the major symbolic victory over gun control that this represented. Just as the ban didn't really ban all that much when it was enacted it was that first step that the antis desperately needed to push the rest of their agenda......they even stated as much. Now that this first step is erased after 10 years of hard fighting they are back at square one. This was HUGE. There has never been another time in history that a federal gun control law was rolled back with the execption of the FOPA of 86, but even that contained the machine gun ban so I wouldn't even consider it a full victory......more a compromise.

jeff-10
September 14, 2004, 01:29 AM
He came withing a hair of getting the gun makers tort protection. I believe if he wins relection and we get a few more GOP Senators and Representatives we will see the tort reform without the killer ammendments on it. Tort protection would be huge for gun owners even though a lot of people do not see how it effects them. Much more important then allowing people to register new machine guns, just not as glamorous.

Lone_Gunman
September 14, 2004, 09:41 AM
Bartholomew, your list has a lot of fluff in it that really doesn't amount to much. He has done a little bit for us in some ways, but not much that really amounts to anything.

Looking at your points one by one:

1. UN restrictions would not be US law. Its good he refused to play with the UN from a standpoint of national sovereignty, but I don't see a huge benefit here from a 2nd amendment standpoint.

2. The Attorney General's opinion of the 2nd amendment only matters until the next AG comes along, and wont add anything to debate over individual rights.

3. NICS data is supposed to be private by law, all the AG is doing is enforcing the law, which is his job. Simply obeying the law is not really a victory for us.

4. Same as above.

5. Supporting tort reform is nice, but it didn't get signed. He also says he supports the AWB, so just paying lip service to us doesnt matter much.

6. It is great that he ended buy back programs.

7. Arming pilots is great.

8. I thought NICS was already supposed to be kept confidential and destroyed, so I don't see how an amenment that restates that helps us, but I guess if it clarifies things, then it is good.

9. That bill didnt pass, despite have a Republican controlled House and Senate to work with.

10. The fact that he has repealed no other presidents executive orders regarding guns is bad.

11. The poll data regarding the AWB is misleading. While 68% may support the AWB, it was also found that those 68% will not vote on that single issue. However the 32% who are against the AWB are much more likely to vote on that single issue. So after analysis, he figures he will get more votes by letting it die.


Anyway, this is just my commentary on the things Bush has done for us. Out of the 11 points you mention, I agree a few of them have helped us some, but he is no champion of gun rights, though he is better than Kerry by a long way.

Bartholomew Roberts
September 14, 2004, 10:32 AM
Lone_Gunman, I think the difference between us in assessing what has been accomplished is that you are comparing them to your ideal of what gun laws should be and I am comparing them to the reality of what gun laws were and how far we have moved away from that.

I also think you gave way too little weight to this:

1. UN restrictions would not be US law. Its good he refused to play with the UN from a standpoint of national sovereignty, but I don't see a huge benefit here from a 2nd amendment standpoint.

One of the planks of the UN proposal was registration of all small arms. That alone is a tremendous issue. Take a look at this discussion of the UN conference and some of the proposals:

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/smallarms/salwindx.htm

Check out the speech titled "Mr. Jozias van Aartsen argues that regulating the illicit trade in small arms means that states must also regulate the legal trade in arms “in order to prevent spill over into the illegal arms trade.” while you are at it.

M2 Carbine
September 14, 2004, 11:12 AM
Well guys let me put it this way.
I surely don't know what everyone can and can not do around the country,

But, in the last four years have "our guys" in Washington changed or done away with any laws or restrictions that makes it possible or easier for you to buy guns or ammo that you couldn't buy four years ago?

In other words have ANY of your 2nd Amendment rights been restored in the last four years?

Have there been ADDITIONAL restrictions on your 2nd Amendment rights?
(Didn't Arnold just sign something:fire: )


The only "progress" I see is more states are passing carry laws (GREAT) and we can put flash hiders on our guns
and hopefully we won't be ripped off on the price of magazines any more.


I hope President Bush has wised up in the last four years to just who his friends and enemies are.
I hope he starts treating the democrats like they treat him and I hope he throws his 2nd Amendment friends a bone or two.


Ya, I have no doubt he will be reelected:)

CZ 75 BD
September 14, 2004, 11:58 AM
endorse W. More often than not, no one is endorsed. IIRC, Reagan was the first candidate that was endorsed in the NRA's 130 year history.

buzz_knox
September 14, 2004, 12:01 PM
1. UN restrictions would not be US law. Its good he refused to play with the UN from a standpoint of national sovereignty, but I don't see a huge benefit here from a 2nd amendment standpoint.

Well, if it was part of a treaty that was ratified by the Senate, it would have the same weight as federal law. Further, if we agreed to be bound by the restrictions, it would effectively be a legal requirement on the United States to comply or be sanctioned, pursuant to generally accepted interpretations of international law.

Simply put, the way to gut the 2nd Amendment entirely is through the UN. Bush blocked that. So, it's a major point, rather than a minor one.

buzz_knox
September 14, 2004, 12:06 PM
In other words have ANY of your 2nd Amendment rights been restored in the last four years?

Well, I can now buy a standard capacity mag built after 9/14/94, as well as a Colt M4 style carbine built during that same period. In fact, I just did. Notwithstanding anything Bush said, the ban would not have died if Bush hadn't made it clear he didn't want it to come to the table. That's what the White House did when it said it wanted a clean gun lawsuit liablity bill back in March. So, yes, I'm giving him credit. He played this one perfectly.

Nickotym
September 14, 2004, 01:16 PM
Just housekeeping, but DBL0Kevin: The AWB did not affect ClassIII suppressors (ie.: sound suppressors) The AWB did affect flash suppressors. Thank you, we now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

Highland Ranger
September 14, 2004, 01:19 PM
Maybe they haven't officially endorsed him yet but Wayne has been all over cable news bashing Kerry . . .

Leatherneck
September 14, 2004, 01:30 PM
I think they should. Minor though the "victories" might be, they're still better than anything that happened during Clinton's regime, and far, far better than anything that might happen under Kerry. I think you guys are being kind of...I don't know...churlish? How many of us swore to vote against him if the AWB was renewed? And now we just walk away? Tough crowd. I think encouraging the Bush campaign with a little appreciation would be preferable to simply saying "Yeah, but what have you done for us latelY?"

TC
TFL Survivor

Dbl0Kevin
September 14, 2004, 02:05 PM
Just housekeeping, but DBL0Kevin: The AWB did not affect ClassIII suppressors (ie.: sound suppressors) The AWB did affect flash suppressors. Thank you, we now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

In a way you are correct, which is what I thought. But as was pointed out to me when the AWB was in effect you could not legally attach a legally owned Class III suppressor to a semi-auto because the ATF also classified it as a flash suppressor and would thus turn the gun into a banned AW.

cracked butt
September 14, 2004, 02:14 PM
What President before W did less harm to RKBA, and how long ago was that?

If you think sitting out of the vote this year, voting for Kerry or a kooky libertarian will move you closer to repealing all or any more gun laws for that matter, you might want to get your head checked.

If anything, W has done as good as we could ask for, and its the congressional leadership that's to blame for a lack of motivation in the area in passing/repealing laws that would help our cause. The 'conservative' leadership in the Senate is truely gutless, and has been so since Gingrich resigned.:barf:

Partisan Ranger
September 14, 2004, 03:25 PM
AWB sunset is a big deal, if for no other reason than the anti-gun bigots have been proven dead wrong. Even the creatures at the Violence Policy Center have conceded the ban was useless. Thus, the purpose that drives these people's lives -- banning guns -- has been proven a sham.

M2 Carbine
September 14, 2004, 03:53 PM
"Even the creatures at the Violence Policy Center have conceded the ban was useless."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Listen closely to what your enemies are saying.

Some of them do admit it was useless,

BUT they don't believe it was it was WRONG, just that it didn't go far enough.



They will be smarter with their next AWB type legislation.

bamawrx
September 14, 2004, 04:27 PM
The only thing more frustrating than the anti's is pro-gun malcontents.

Sven
September 14, 2004, 04:57 PM
bamawrx: Why are they hard to handle?

Do you feel that rights will be restored by being satisfied with the status quo?

I personally think that is like standing around with ones mouth open, hoping that a roasted duck will fly in.

Warbow
September 14, 2004, 05:23 PM
bamawrx wrote:

The only thing more frustrating than the anti's is pro-gun malcontents.

Ain't that the truth.

Yeah, I understand their frustration (I'm just as frustrated) about how things are, but that's how it is. As the saying goes, reality bites. The fact is, if it wasn't Bush who was in office right now the AWB would have been renewed and most likely would have had even more ridiculous restrictions added to it (can you say Al "Registration" Gore?). I wish Bush were more proactive on gun rights, but as it stands he's the best we can get right now. It's either him or Kerry, and we know Kerry is a gun grabber of the worst kind. That's how it is, accept reality!

M2 Carbine
September 14, 2004, 05:34 PM
bamawrx

The only thing more frustrating than the anti's is pro-gun malcontents.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

bamawrx,

I have been watching our 2nd Amendment rights eaten away little by little for over half a century.


We have gone from,

where as a young boy I could walk down a city street carrying a 22 rifle and the only thing that might be said is something like, Hey boy can you hit anything with that rifle?,

to today when we gun people call many of our own states "The People's Republic of ------" because of the blatant disregard of our Constitutional right.


It seems there aren't nearly enough "pro-gun malcontents".




---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Warbow
That's how it is, accept reality!
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Ya Warbow,
Keep "accepting reality" and the next generation of Americans will be lucky if they can own a bow and arrows.

Warbow
September 14, 2004, 07:16 PM
M2 Carbine wrote:

Ya Warbow,
Keep "accepting reality" and the next generation of Americans will be lucky if they can own a bow and arrows.

And your refusal to accept it is somehow going to improve the situation? You have to work with what you're given. As others have pointed out before, the all or nothing mindset doesn't work in our favor.

2nd Amendment
September 14, 2004, 09:33 PM
The "Compromise and Delay" mindset hasn't been doing us any favors, either.

The_Antibubba
September 15, 2004, 03:17 AM
Would an NRA endorsement help Bush? IOW, does the endorsement bring in pro-gun votes that were wavering before, or does the endorsement turn off undecideds who don't like guns?

In a race this close, it could make the difference.

hso
September 15, 2004, 08:41 AM
The NRA has to be able to work with whoever is in office. Pointing out Kerry's anti-gun voting history is pointng out fact. Endorsing GW in the face of his stated intent to sign an AWB would be a betrayal to those who worked so hard to kill it. If GW had said that his original position had been to support the AWB, but government studies had shown that the AWB served no purpose and he supported letting it sunset as part of a smaller government measure he would have been "our hero".

twency
September 15, 2004, 09:04 AM
3. NICS data is supposed to be private by law, all the AG is doing is enforcing the law, which is his job. Simply obeying the law is not really a victory for us.

Sadly, simply obeying the law is really a victory for us. I minor victory, true, but it is a refreshing reversal of course. The plain meanings of the 1st, 2nd, and 4th Ammendments, among other laws, have been ignored for so long that it's actually a breath of fresh air, and yes, I think a victory, that the intent and plain meaning of this particular law is now being followed.


-twency
________________
The severity of the itch is inversely proportional to the ability to reach it.

Warbow
September 15, 2004, 09:40 AM
2nd Amendment wrote:

The "Compromise and Delay" mindset hasn't been doing us any favors, either.

Okay. What's the plan (that's realistic) to restore our rights, then?

CZ-100
September 15, 2004, 01:49 PM
I personally do not think ANY Organization should endorse anyone..

I mean what is an Organization? it is made up of individuals, that do not see or cast the same vote for anything. There is NO way they can say everyone in the Organization see's or feels' the same about or endorse one person.

Lone_Gunman
September 15, 2004, 08:46 PM
The only thing more frustrating than the anti's is pro-gun malcontents.


Just keep voting Republican without paying to their stand on any actual positions then, and keep trying to convince yourselves they are different from the Democrats.

Arnold Schwarzeneggar just signed the 50 cal ban in California. Since he is a Republican though, this is clearly some type of victory for gun owners, right?

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