Civilian Marksmanship Program


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english kanigit
September 14, 2004, 01:36 AM
Hey everybody, just a few questions for those more knowledgeable than myself. I was wondering if any one here has had experience with the civilian marksmanship program. I don't need an immaculate display gun, just something accurate and reliable. I've been thinking of going for a rack grade M-1 through the CMP. Any feedback either well or ill would be appreciated.

Nate

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444
September 14, 2004, 02:04 AM
I have a half dozen guns I bought from the CMP.
They are all reliable. Accuracy is decent. Certainly good enough for someone that isn't going to use the rifle in serious match competition.
Condition varies and you never know what you are going to get. As I understand it, the rifles are graded mechanically, not cosmetically. I got a USGI service grade M1 that is in very nice condition. Only a couple dings on the stock. I got a service grade Greek M1 and it is very well worn. It functions fine. I haven't shot it a whole lot, but accuracy is acceptable for a military issue rifle. But it doesn't look all that great.
I did get a 1903 that had a stock that was severely cracked in several different places that I wouldn't shoot without replacing the stock. I think that if I would have called the CMP, they would have replaced it, but instead I sent it to a gunsmith to have the stock replaced. I got another 1903 that was perfectly functional, but the stock looked like it had been dragged behind a truck on the left side. It doesn't effect it's performance or function, but it doesn't look good.
I would say that you have a pretty decent chance of getting a good functional rifle with the CMP. I think you should get a service grade rifle if you don't plan on doing anything to it or spending any money on it. But, I know people that have bought rack grade rifles that were fine. I just never bought one myself.

WhoKnowsWho
September 14, 2004, 02:05 AM
If you use the search button (in the upper right corner) you will get lots of comments from people who have dealed with the CMP to get a Garand. It really is a good way to get a Garand.

Also, www.battlerifles.com has lots of information about the Garand.

jefnvk
September 14, 2004, 02:33 AM
I don't know where you are at, but their store is located at Camp Perry in Ohio. If its not too far, maybe it would be worth your time to take a drive there. I know after posting some questions about the rifle conditions, I decided, for my first purchase, to actually drive there and pick it out myself. That way, I dont have to worry about being happy with what I got.

CGofMP
September 14, 2004, 02:36 AM
I think you will find that my longwinded commentary on our experience with the CMP (before I did a part of their website) will be interesting.

Have a look here (http://www.memorableplaces.com/m1garand/)

In short I am thrilled with the CMP. My first rifle had some problems which they fixed right away. Dad ordered a rifle fropm them subsequent to me writing the site referenced above.. that rifle came in with a splintered up stock. CMP was right on it and fixed us up.

They are certainly worth your time. Do visit my M1 garand site if you are interested in this rifle. I think you will be pleased at what you see.

Charles

OEF_VET
September 14, 2004, 02:43 AM
I just today mailed in my order from for a service grade, Greek issue, Springfield Armory Garand. I can't wait for the BBT to drop it off at the front door. WOOHOOO!!!!!

Then it's off to the range for a little:

Bang, Bang, Bang, Bang, Bang, Bang, Bang, Bang, PING!!!

Sleeping Dog
September 14, 2004, 08:05 AM
OEF_VET

Look for the BWT, not the BBT. CMP uses FedEx.

While you're waiting, buy a supply of mineral spirits and brake cleaner to get the grease off. If it's like my Greek '03A3, it'll come packed in grease.

Regards.

George S.
September 14, 2004, 11:24 AM
You can get also get a lot of information directly from the CMP website www.odcmp.com They also have a discussion forum where you can ask questions and even get answers directly from Orest Michaels, the forum Administrator and CMP staffer.

I had bought one of their last CMP Danish Garands, a Springfield Service Grade with a near-new VAR barrel. It's a 6-digit serial number that shows it was made in April 1941 so there is a fair chance that it saw some use during WWII. The stock is in pretty sad shape but the rifle is pretty accurate. The first outing with it at 50 yards got me some 1" groups using Korean milsurp ammo (I had not shot a high-powered rifle in many years). I'm still getting used to it but I think this is going to be a really nice shooter.

444
September 14, 2004, 12:14 PM
None of the M1s I got from CMP came covered in grease or cosmoline: the 1903s did. The M1s are just about ready to go.

The CMP website has an outstanding section that shows you how to disassemble the rifle down to nothing. I followed the instructions, stripped it down. Cleaned all the dirt and lubrication off of it, then replaced the 60 year old springs with new ones from Wolff. As was mentioned, these excellent instructions on the CMP website were taken from the website of our own CGofMP. You can't go wrong following his step by step instructions.

CGofMP
September 14, 2004, 01:31 PM
As was mentioned, these excellent instructions on the CMP website were taken from the website of our own CGofMP. You can't go wrong following his step by step instructions.

444 A Webmaster and author could have no larger a smile on his face... :D :D :D

Thank you for the extremely kind words :)

Just FYI - Those instructions (400 something files) used to be on my M1 Garand site. CMP actually purchased them, reviewed them and now owns them. I was allowed to retain the right to use a few of the photos but the CMP is now owner of the product and is 100 percent responsible for it. Still I LOVE to hear it when people say how
section that I made for them (http://www.civilianmarksmanship.com/) has been helpful. :)

Thanks again!
Charles

Trebor
September 14, 2004, 02:03 PM
DON'T buy a Rack Grade Garand if you want a good gun to shoot. The Rack Grade guns have more barrel wear as measured by throat erosion and also may have more muzzle wear or outright damage at the muzzle.

The best gun to buy for a shooter is a U.S. Service Grade Garand. The Greek Service Grades would be my second choice.

The only reason to buy a Rack Grade gun is if you definately plan on rebarreling it for .308 or turning it into a match rifle and rebarreling it with a match grade barrel. The Rack Grade guns are good starting point for a project like that, since you aren't paying extra for a better condition barrel that you plan on replacing anyway.

Trust me. Get a Service Grade gun and you'll be much happier with it.

444
September 14, 2004, 02:14 PM
CGofMP
I was aware of the story from reading your site and theirs.
Not to continue beating a dead horse, but I would have never thought that I could disassemble the trigger (I am an idiot), but, with the aid of that webpage, It was no problem at all. You did a great job. All three of my M1s are now battle ready.

CGofMP
September 14, 2004, 04:44 PM
Well 444 I'll tell youy a little secret.... When I made those pages it was a learning experience for me. I was a very regular participant (asking questions mostly) on another board devoted to M1's when I got my first CMP rifle/ M1 Garand. When I ordered it I did not even have a CLUE how to LOAD it much less field strip it and had even less of a clue on detail stripping it.

As I say I asked a LOT of questions. One man in particular, an ex-air force pilot by the name of Lane Smith took me under his wing and helped me to learn how to do all of this. He explained (by email mind you) how to do everything I wanted to know. One of the things I wanted to know was how to detail strip the Garand. I was very impressed by the 1911 and could literally take it apart and put it together with a blindfold on... an elegant design if there ever was one, and the mechanism of the M1 really called to me to try it too :-)

I made mistakes. I had a box of parts at one point I couldnt get back together. But thanks to Lane Smith and others on that board I slowly learned how to do this. (Do not mention I could have gotten an army manual.. I did that later :p :-)

Anyway, one of the BEST ways to learn something WELL yourself is to share what you think you know with others so as a lark I started putting together pages on how to do this. It helped! A lot! Of course one thing led to another and I decided to share with the other neophytes on the board what I learned and thatg became a project that resulted in 30 megabytes worth of pictures and files... most of which became what you see now on civilianmarksmanship.com.

So, I guess what I am trying to say is I am NO guru.. just a guy that wanted to learn how his rifle worked and ended up getting caught up in it :)

Oh, another fantastic resource for the M1 newbie is http://www.garandflash.com/ This will not show you how to detail strip, but will visually show you how the garand itself functions. Quite excellent. It compliments the Nomenclature secion on the CMP site very nicely as the nomenclature section details what each part does in words and the site linked above shows in annimation those parts in action.

Anyway, glad the trigger group goodies helped you :-)

Charles
http://www.memorableplaces.com/m1garand/atrainwreck.jpg

english kanigit
September 14, 2004, 06:57 PM
Wow, thanks for all the help guys. CGofMP, your website is what originally got me looking around about the CMP. The details of your experience and your father's is what made me decide to seriously look into this. Now if I could just save the money....

About the only things that the CMP doesn't (and should) cary are 1911s and M-14s (<--- yes, I know it's class 3). I'm just gonna go back to this perfect lala land of mine were ammo is free and liberals are all dressed up as clowns; thanks again guys!

Nate

CGofMP
September 14, 2004, 11:06 PM
Oh man.... Lets not talk about the 1911's. They allegedly no lnger exist. You can thank the Clinton administration and one person who I will not name who carried out the orders.

I have pretty darn reliable info that almost all of them (percent wise) were destroyed. Literally by the train car full. Oh yes this included at least a few Singer Made 1911s. My info is that one of the guys tasked with doing this was a collector and actually was near tears sending the singer down the belt.

My understanding is that these weapons were destroyed by a private contractor. Basically they were chopped up into bits so fine as to not be abl eto be used even for parts. The scrap metal was then used for other purposes.

I filed a FOIA request on this some time last year (included other weapons than the 1911 in the foia) and the government said that I'd have had to pay several hundred dollars to get the FOIA processd because the infomation is not in tight little areas and it would have to be collected from many sources thereby making for some serious costs.

Orest Michaels of the CMP has made it pretty clear that we will never see 1911s for sale there.

What a travesty.

:cuss:

As for the M14s yea sure. Another I wish. Another mission impossible.

Trebor
September 15, 2004, 12:50 AM
Charles,

I still miss Lane. I didn't have much contact with him, other then reading his posts on Jouster, but he seemed like a really nice guy. By all accounts, he was an Officer and a gentleman.

CGofMP
September 15, 2004, 12:55 AM
As do I Treb.. as do I.

Cancer is an insidious thing... and he was young.

He sent me some pictures once of what he was dealing with... I would not call them gory, but nobody should have to endure such awful things as he did.

Charles

english kanigit
September 15, 2004, 02:14 AM
Hey, CGofMP, one more question. Is there a place I can run the serial number on a 1911 I have?
The gun is pre-A1 and marked as manufactured by Remington Rand. And, to top it all off, the frame is stamped Unites States Government Property. I am mighty interested to fing its date of manufacture.

Nate

CGofMP
September 15, 2004, 02:22 AM
Sounds like you have a collectors piece !

Try here:http://armscollectors.com/srs/lookup_auto.php

Though that will not give you a makers date.

I am not sure of a place for 1911's.... I know plenty of books have info on them.

Send me the serial number and I will look it up in one of mine. Suggest you DO NOT post it.... instead send it to me directly at charles@memorableplaces.com

I'll look it up within a few days and report back to you.

Oh yes and this site has a ton of good info on the 1911

http://www.m1911.org/m1911dt.htm

EDITED TO ADD: Just been bouncing round the above site and I think that

THIS will help you (http://www.m1911.org/dates.htm)

Charles

PS: Like the Pythonesque name you chose welcome to THR

english kanigit
September 15, 2004, 02:38 AM
Thank you for the help, I'll be getting around to that later today after work (which I am supposed to wake up for in 5 hours :banghead: ) The gun in question is a piece I bought my father for x-mas a year ago. For some odd reason though I shoot it more than he does...


btw, i'm glad somebody figured out my name without help :D

Trebor
September 15, 2004, 02:50 PM
I filed a FOIA request on this some time last year (included other weapons than the 1911 in the foia) and the government said that I'd have had to pay several hundred dollars to get the FOIA processd because the infomation is not in tight little areas and it would have to be collected from many sources thereby making for some serious costs.

There is a "journalist's exception" to the FOIA fees. PM me through my profile and I may be able to help you get that request filled. I'm sure if you contacted the editor of the NRA's "Man at Arms" or a similiar collecting publication, they would be happy to have an article based on that research.

Old Dog
September 15, 2004, 04:20 PM
Not to hijack this informative thread on CMP and M1s ... but I know there'd be much interest here if anyone can ever get to the bottom of what happened to all the military's 1911s ... I was assigned to a military police department (Navy) when my service (the last of 'em) finally transitioned to the M9 back in (yes, believe it or not, NOT 1985) the mid 90s. Suffice it to say, my (and many others) inquiring mind could not find out where we were shipping the 1911s (the armorer and supply folks apparently having been sworn to secrecy); the guns did not go through the normal DRMO (defense reutilization/maintenance office) process. I had a terrific Colt (probably about late 50s vintage) issued to me that was very, very accurate and in grand shape -- would have loved to have been able to track it down and purchase it ...

Jmurman
September 15, 2004, 05:58 PM
I bought a Service grade Springfield M1 from CMP and have to say its GREAT. The mfg date is Aug 1944...maybe saw some Korean action?

The stock was a mismatch of birch and walnut, and was dinged up pretty good. I did the "dishwasher thing" and was amazed at how well this worked out.

CMP are great to deal with.

444
September 15, 2004, 10:43 PM
.

CGofMP
September 16, 2004, 01:16 AM
Trebor,

Thank you for the information.... and the offer!

I will send you mail in a few weeks when I get my personal PC back to operation... I am using a couple of others now and all of that stuff is on my system archived kinda deep.

Once I get some quality time with my own stuff I will get back with you and see if there is a way for us to get this information.

feel free to mail me offline at charles@memorableplaces.com if you like and tell me exactly what you need. Also let me know how it is that you would be able to help.... I smell a journalist do I? I can read mail directly on the MP server here I just cant easily get to my archived stuff.

Thanks!:D

Charles

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