[Lee F]

I have always been guilty of wanting every rifle I see. They all look like they would be fun or at least good enough until I find something better. There are very few models that I haven't at the least fired when someone offered to let me try it at the range. But now I'm ready to settle down with one good rifle. The problem is after sampling so many types I have an opinion about most of them.

I've returned two Savage 110's for refunds due to constant problems. The SMLE I had broke the firing pin within the first fifty rounds. My first 98K Mauser had its magazine spring break in the first week making it a very agravating single shot until I repaired it. My Remington 700 (5000+ rounds so far) fails to extract every now and then. Plus everyone I know who shoots High Power Match rifles claims to have seen a bolt handle break. My Winchester fails to feed fairly often if the bullet is round nosed instead of pointed and shoots groups much larger than the Remington.

I know exactly what I want. A bolt action in .308/7.62x51 with a internal box or detachable magazine. A barrel between 22 and 24 inches and a total weight between 6.5 and 8.5 lbs. Synthetic is good, wood is good. I will use this rifle for everything from long range plinking to deer hunting to small game hunting with cast loads. I would like to keep the rifle cost to $1200 since adding good iron sights, a sling, a case, etc will be several hundred more.
Realistically I know all mechanical devices will fail eventually, but I want reliability above and beyond everything else.

What would you buy based on your experiences with these requirements and that amount of money?

[T.Stahl]

Hmm, if the US prices are the same as here, how about a Steyr SBS96 Pro Hunter? Synthetic stock, four round detachable mag (10rd HC kit available), 23.5" barrel (20" for Pro Hunter Mountain), about 7lbs empty weight.
I handle one a few years back, quality and handling was good, the receiver appeared very sturdy and safe.

[Kestrel]

Lee F,

Which model Winchester do you have? Push-feed or CRF?

Thanks,
Steve

[Lee F]

The push feed model, but I have seen the controlled feed do the same thing with 220 grain round noses in 30-06.

[Art Eatman]

For me and some buddies, I know of no problems with Sakos. Same for Ruger 77s or 77 Mk IIs, except the trigger on the latter. But, accurate and reliable...

Art

[cratz2]

Maybe you should donate some money to charity and help a little old lady across the road. Something to get some more good Karma. :p

I currently own probably two dozen rifles and I can't recall them ever having a problem worse than a lousy trigger. Sometimes the actions are a bit rough out of the box and some Winchester safeties are a bit hard to work sometimes, but I have absolutely never ever had any failure in my four or five rifles I routinely shoot a lot of rounds through.

For rifle that has a very good chance of being 100% out of the box, I'd look at a Sako or Weatherby. Probably be $1,000 plus or minus. I'm kinda cheap so I would probably look into a Tikka or stick to my Winchesters and Rugers.

Good luck though.

[cratz2]

Just saw this on gunbroker.com A Sako in 30-06 with sako iron sights and nice wood.

http://gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=7522438

[Sir Galahad]

Never had a single problem with my Ruger M77Mk2 International .308. Hundreds of rounds of milsurp .308 have gone through it. For those who don't like the trigger on the Ruger, Cabela's is now carrying the Timney adjustable trugger for it.

[BHP9]

If you want the ultimate in reliability the 98 Mauser has no equal even to this day. I know you mentioned that a spring broke in your 98 but if we are talking of rifles in new or near new condition the 98 is probably the last gun in the world that will ever fail you.

You don't have to spend a lot of money unless you desire a custom gun with all the features that you would like to have. So would all of us.

I picked up only a couple of years ago a Sears FN action model deluxe rifle for only a little more than a song. $320.00 to be exact. These rifles were also made in greater numbers in the standard grade without checkering on the wood stock but the wood in them was still very nice.

I glass bedded the action, floated the barrel, water proofed the inside of the stock with polyurethene, restained and refinished the stock and poped in a Timney ajustable trigger. It is in cal .270 and last summer I shot 1/2 inch 3 shot groups out of it using 54.5 grains of IMr 4350 powder and Nosler balistic bullets (130 grain). Absolutely outstanding performance for a gun made back in the 1950's.

If you are going to use the gun for hunting then the .308 is not as desireable as say a 30-6 would be. The '06 being the much more versitile caliber. If all you are going to do is plink with cheap surplus ammo than the .308 would be the way to go.

The FN 98 actions were of all high quality forged steel (no cheap castings , stamped sheet metal pats or plastic innards). Extactors were the most reliable and powerful on this planet and the gas escape system has no peer compared to any other rifle made before or since. The bolt and extractor can be stripped right in the field. Try doing that with some of todays designes and you just may need a pick up truck full of tools to work with.

Professional big game guides have long used the 98 Mauser because of its utter reliablity under extreme conditions. When a clients or their own life is on the line they do not use push feed actions and rifles made of castings, stampings or plastic.

Another hint: For many years the Gun Digest used to post pictures of custom rifles that were very expensive and built up for very well to do people. The dominate action year after year was the cusom built 98 Mauser in just about every caliber imaginable.
Rich people did not get that way because they were intellectual midgets. They look into a subject , research it, talk to experts in the field and then make an informed decision. Part of their decision besides reliablity is quality and the 98 Mauser was and is, most of the time, their first choice in rifle actions.

If you have a lot of cash. There are custom gunsmiths that will even make you a brand new 98 action from scratch. But be prepared to spend big bucks and maybe even wait a couple of years, they are that far behind in orders.

Of course there are still lots and lots of quality 98 sporting rifles out there and lots of military actions that can be built into sporters. You can spend very little like I did or spend a kings ransom. In the end you will have the very best rifle money can buy.

[Soap]

I know of one case of extractor failure in a Sako...it must have been made on a Friday at 4:59 the day before the opening of moose season. If I were you, I would push the budget up about $150 and get a Blaser synthetic in '06 or .308. Currently, there is a recall on them though because Blaser accidentally may have used non-stainless steel trigger pins that may corrode. But the problem was one of "D'oh!" instead of design flaw.

[Al Thompson]

Hmmmmm. BHP9, what are your thoughts on the CZ series? I've handled a few and that would be my recommendation for Lee F.

[LevelHead]

One Word - Sako.

[Lee F]

cratz2,
You may be onto something about Karma! Then again I have fired more than 10,000 rounds a year since about 1990.

Well it looks like the two choices I had in mind, but didn't mention are the favorites so far. I was on the Beretta USA website just last night looking at the Sako 75 rifles! I am aware of the CZ imports, but would be thankful for any tips about current commerical offerings of Mauser 98 actions.
Thanks again.

[cratz2]

Well, hell! At the rate of 10,000 rounds a year, I'd expect to buy two Rugers or Winchesters each year. :p

Seriously though, while I'm sure several rifles have seen that kind of use, I doubt if any of the major companies honestly design rifles and chose parts to last over 10,000 rounds. Expecting them to do to is really probably asking a bit much. For non-military bolt-action, centerfire rilfes, I'd guess that about 99% of them never see over 1,000 rounds and I'd think that if you're actually shooting 10,000 rounds per year, you're involved enough that buying two rifles a year shouldn't be that big of a challenge. Or even buy two identical rifles, shoot one until it breaks, send it in and start shooting the second one. Seriously! :D

[DeBee]

Hmm, this post is very similar to the post I have in the Gunsmithing Forum on the "Ultimate .30-06...

My needs are as simple as yours. A rifle that works.

I think it is time for you to go custom. You know this when every gun in your rack frustrates you to some degree or another... Most stuff coming out of the factories today is really just raw material for a riflesmith anyway- some not even that...

The way I see it, there are only two choices- the Mauser 98 derivatives or a Pre 64 Winchester, both worked over by a riflesmith. Since you want .308, I would lean toward the Mauser due to the fact the Winchester mag needs to be blocked and it is a waste of space.

I have encountered difficulties getting ALL Mausers to feed .308 It depends on the original caliber the rifle was made for 7x57 or 8x57 or who, what and how the rails were milled. If you get several different makes of Mauser actions together, compare the rail profiles... I'd like to give Paul Mauser a .308 cartridge and see how he would make an action around it (Kurtz???)...

If anyone knows the mathematics around determining the cartridge stack geometry in the Mauser magazine box, I'd appreciate the info. I'm talking about perfect feeding not just adequate. I've heard of getting dummy rounds and epoxying them together for study, but I'm not there yet...

If I were doing it, I'd get a DMW action tweaked for feeding .308, have it surface ground to true the reciever and remove the crest for stable scope mounting, square and true the ring, square and lap the lugs, polish and hone the bolt races, recut the bolt face, screw on a 22" Lothar Walther barrel in the Original Mauser B profile (it's programmed into their CNC I'm told...), get the iron sights from NECG, have a straight grain english walnut stock fitted to you. Although I'm a fan of keeping as close to possible the original Mauser configuration, I may swap for a 3 position safety, a Power, Sako, or Kepplinger trigger, and Blackburn bottom metal...

Just my thoughts along the same line... an ultimate rifle.

[s&w 24]

for a stock of the shelf gun a Steyr scout or SBS, for a custom gun
I'll sell you mine! 1903A3, bishop maple stock, timmney trigger, refield bases, glass bedded and free floated.

[rjk2475]

s&w 24 how much? send pics.

[BHP9]

Hmmmmm. BHP9, what are your thoughts on the CZ series? I've handled a few and that would be my recommendation for Lee F.

I think CZ makes some very nice rifles for the money. I would like to find one of the older models that had the concealed pop up rear peep sight.

CZ has the big long very reliable non- rotating extractor like those found on the 98 Mausers. A big plus in feeding and extraction.

The only sad story I have to tell is that I was all set to get one of their .22 rimfire sporter rifles last summer. A friend of mine ordered one to use in a match for sporter rifles only. Out of curiosity I looked his new CZ rimfire over and was horrified to find out that his rifle did not have a metal magazine in it but an all plastic one. Well, CZ just lost another sale. Although the rifle still looked to be of quality, I could not accept it with a plastic magazine.

[Lee F]

DeBee,
Thanks for the heads up about the 308 feeding challenge. I would change my plans from 308 to 30-06 if that is what it takes for 100% reliability. You're probably right about needing to have a rifle built to get what I want. I don't feel like I'm asking for much, no fancy engraving or 17th century French Walnut, just a rifle that works everytime.

cratz2,
Just so you don't think I have a Henry Bowman complex, 10,000 rounds includes 22lr, pistol, shotgun and centerfire rifles. This year I hope to really exceed that number. I ran 800 rounds through my Ruger Mark II 22lr last Saturday alone. Its probably not as expensive as it sounds to the non-reloader. .308 FMJ's are $50 or less a thousand, $12 per 1K primers, and surplus 4895 eight pounds at a time. Not counting the lake city brass that's older than me that's pretty cheap shooting. Doesn't everyone reload between 12 and 4 in the morning :rolleyes:

[Marshall]

You might look into Kimbers M84, never shot one, but sure do like the reviews and all I have read of the gun. It's available in .308.

Sako's are great.

My Brownings have never given me a single problem, I love em.

I am also very fond of the Rugers!

[cheygriz]

Is the U.S. Rifle, cal.5.56X45MM, M-16A2

[PJR]

Sako Model 75 is the best out of the box bolt action rifle that meets your needs. I went through a similar search but for a .223 and after owned several I chose a Sako and haven't looked back.

Paul

[COHIBA]

try the Steyr. you couldnt pry mine away.

[s&w 24]

s&w 24 how much? send pics.

sorry sold at the gunshow this weekend

[Gewehr98]

The ultimate rifle is the U.S. Rifle, cal.5.56X45MM, M-16A2

Having one issued to me, I realize it's what the Government says their troops need, but that hardly fulfills the definition of Ultimate Rifle. Unless, of course, it's because you secretly want one of your own...

(This is the year I get to go on a big game hunt. I'm taking my .45-70 Ruger #1S, it'll work better on stuff like pissed-off Cape Buffalo than a .223...) ;)

[rugerfreak]

Seems like the only bolt actions I even look at anymore are the Browning A-Bolts. The collection has grown to 4 of them.

And I've been through darn near all of 'em.

[rjk2475]

RUGERFREAK: please elaborate on your preference for the A-bolts.

[rugerfreak]

Every A-Bolt I've EVER seen has been a tackdriver right out of the box. The same can't be said for ANY other brand I've owned.

Then the list of desireable features:

1. 60 degree uplift on the bolt---quicker cycling and your thumb comes no where near the scope.

2. Free floated barrel from the factory.

3.Magazine system for easy reloads or quick ammo changes. I like this a lot for hunting---I carry my extra ammo in a loaded magazine--keeps them from jingling around.

4.Adjustable trigger from the factory--they usually get down to about 3lbs------which is perfect for a hunting rifle.

5. Tang shotgun style safety---a pin slides up when the safety is engaged---positively locking the firing pin back. It's also VERY easy to manipulate the safety with your thumb.

They also are solid without being too heavy.

This is why I like them---right off the top of my head.

[blackrazor]

How's this?

[MPFreeman]

Look through These options. (http://www.awcsystech.com/cust_rifle.htm)

[Marshall]

In addition to rugerfreaks comments, Brownings are just made damn well! I own many, many Brownings and will stand up tall for them anytime. ;)