[smokshwn]

I've done the search but would still like some more info concerning these guns. I love the ergos and am looking to buy one soon. I was hoping to hear experiences and opinions concerning quality, function, parts/accessory availability, and parts compatibility. As always thanx in advance Craig

[iamkris]

Quality / fit and finish: CZ by a bit

Function / reliability: Tie

Parts Availability: CZ-USA is a bigger organization than the Witness importer EAA with MUCH better customer service

Accessory Availability: Witness has a broader range of calibers, conversion kits and other accessories

Price: Witness by a bit

Parts compatibility: I don't have a 1 for 1 comparison but I believe few parts are actually compatible. Its a knockoff vs a clone. Anyone have a better answer than that?

I own a .45 Witness and would like to own another CZ or two or three. Comes down to your specific requirements on the above criteria.

[schild]

Welcome! I think most people here would pick CZ over EAA, IMHO.
I've been happy with my dealings with CZ-USA.

[dairycreek]

As far as personal choice is concerned mine would be (and is) CZ hands down. Good shooting;)

[loudernhel]

A note on parts: Brownells carries the full catalog of Witness parts.

I've got a .45 with $2k+ rounds through it with no problems other than those caused by a crappy USA brand magazine. Great gun for the money.

[BevrFevr]

I would like to state that CZ is a clone of nothing. It is an original design. The witness is a clone/knockoff of the cz.

Tangfolio makes the EAA witness and their quality has gone up and down through the years.

CZ's are just in a class by themselves. I would only go EAA if they are going offer something that CZ does not. The accuracy is just sweet.

And I'm sure CZ-USA service may be great I wouldn't know cause my CZ hasn't missed a beat in a small bucket full of rounds.

First thing you notice when you pick one up is the ergo's. After shooting one alot you will find that your hand misses holding it. And when it is back in your hand everything seems better in the world. Sort of like a grown up pacifier.

It's not worth a small price difference, go for an original. Shoot 124gr Gold Dots through it and you will be very satisfied if you do your part.

Tangfolio does have the wonder finish goin for it.

Good Luck -bevr

[Flash Hole]

I have the Witness in 10 mm, and a CZ 40B
Both are great guns for the money.

JOHN

[Gila Jorge]

A friend tried to sell on getting a Witness because it was a CZ clone: I looked at it and it felt good in my hand. However, when I went to my dealer, he was a CZ distributor and had many CZ rifles but no pistols. He talked mer into quality and I am darn happy with my CZ75B and no regrets.
Quality is there, accuracy, and function. Best crunchenticker I've had. Also looked at a SIG but saved 300 over that.

[Jiml3]

I have both a Witness and a CZ-75PCR. The CZ wins hands down! Also, my expierence with trying to deal with EAA European has left such a bitter taste that if they reduced their prices an additional $100.00 I would still buy a CZ. They don't know the meaning of customer service. On a more objective note, the fit , finish and quality of the CZ is superior.

[cratz2]

I've owned about 4 of each and I'd say overall, discounting the actual finish, is about even. Personally I like the EAAs just fine. They use steel triggers and most of the CZ single actions, IPSCs and Champions I've seen had plastic triggers.

Reliability-wise, I don't think you should have much of a problem. Complaints are few and far between and I'd be willing to bet for every one loud compliant there are nine happy owners that remain silent.

CZs are a bit smoother overall. 'Fit and finish' are generally more consistant on the CZs though the EAAs can be good as well.

Great guns, can't buy a better new pistol for the price in my opinion.

[BamBam]

I have a Witness .45. Probably has 900 rounds thru it now...no malfunctions ever.

I almost got the CZ but the Witness' grip was a bit more narrow and fit me better. I also like the Wonder Finish (it's actually Tennifer, like the Glock). Price was $337.00, new.

I've heard that EAA customer service is terrible. But like I said, mine has been 100% so far, YMMV.

BamBam

[Tecolote]

I prefer the grip of the Tanfoglio. It's closer to the first gen CZ75 than the newer CZs are.

Fit and finish are about the same. Some CZs can be real cobby inside as are some Tanfoglios.

Parts are easier to get for Tanfoglios as are after market items. There are some unique parts that are no longer made for the earlier CZs like the safeties.

You can probably find a Tanfoglio with WonderFinish for about the same price as a CZ75 polycoat.

I've had two lemon CZs but never a lemon Tanfoglio. YMMV

[dude]

FWIW-- while it is basically the same design.........I found the IMI Baby Eagle to have a much more comfortable grip than either the CZ or EAA-----hence my only auto pistol now is a BE Compact 9mm these days.


ALOT to be said for finally owning a pistol that just 'fits' (replaced a P7 after almost 18 years)

[PCRCCW]

Good question, ....Im a self proclaimed CZ-ophile and will still tell you Tan. makes great guns. You can get all kinds of OEM goodies...safeties, triggers...etc.
But I still like CZ guns better.
Ive returned a 10mm Compact for pitting inside of the barrel ......
Ive heard good and bad about both guns....Had a Compact CZ that literally drove me to the point of selling it...even after I fixed the problems it had....Ive had 6 others without a hiccup.....
My call sign should say it all.......Shoot well

[nvrquit]

In the CZ vs EAA question, the thing is not only what you get when you purchase but how you are handled when you need support.

Many have dealt and communicated with CZ and few have negative experiences. Unfortunately, of those that have had negative experiences with EAA, myself included, those experiences were "bitter tasting".

Admittedly, there have been many that have not experienced "unfortunate" handling in dealing with EAA, but most of those were of the "once and done" experience that did not require multiple dealings with EAA CS.


Tecolote,

I have had a "lemon" Tanfoglio, which required attention from EAA. If you'd like, pop on over to one of the linked sites and do some reading:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=74160&highlight=EAA

http://pub105.ezboard.com/fczechpistols82792frm35.showMessage?topicID=8.topic

http://talk.shooters.com/room_30/20419.cfm

As stated, not all have experienced what I have, but more than a few did and were not handled well by the upper most of management at EAA. I don't believe the same can be said of CZ, though I do know of a single incident where one CZ owner was not completely satisfied with his CZ service. The ratio is pretty much in favor of CZ on the CS issue.

The one thing that Tanfoglio Witness pistols offer over a CZ is in adaptability/expandability to other calibers. Drop on over to CZF's "CZ Clone Club" board and do some reading. Here's the link:

http://pub105.ezboard.com/fczechpistols82792frm35

[Tecolote]

I'm sorry to hear that EAA doesn't treat its customers well. That's a sure way to lose my business.

How about an IMI Baby Eagle? The grip design is the best I've felt and quality is far better than a Tanfoglio, although IMI does use of their components. Never had any dealings with MRI so I can't speak about their customer service.

[Zak Smith]

Here's a brief summary of my experience with CZ pistols and CZ-USA.
[list=1]
Bought CZ-75B-SA. It came with the plastic trigger. Trigger pull was only slightly above average for 75B's. The slide would lock open prematurely with rounds still left in the mag, using factory 10-round mags or pre-ban 15/16 round mags - a reliability issue. I sent it back to CZ-USA to fix the premature slide-lock problem (warranty) and do a trigger job (paid). They replaced the plastic trigger with a steel trigger for free. I paid shipping both ways.

Pistol returned in 35 days with a pretty good, but not "1911 good", trigger. If overtravel screw is used to limit trigger overtravel, half-cock notch hits and/or rubs sear edge.

Bought CZ-85 Combat. Worked perfectly from box. Near bottom of grip, side of frame bows in slightly and is not flat - a cosmetic imperfection. Had a pretty good trigger with overtravel screw in use. I didn't notice if the sear hit the half-cock notch when overtravel screw was used.

I sent it in to CZ-USA for a SA-only trigger conversion.

Bought CZ 75 Compact for girlfriend. Pistol operated perfectly from box. Has average 75B trigger.

Bought CZ 75 Compact for myself. Pistol had a 0.2" by 0.1" casting defect inside frame front-strap, below the magazine catch slot. Informed CZ-USA; they disregarded since it was not causing a problem. Pistol FTF'd 10% - 50% of the time using JHPs or FMJs.

Sent back to CZ-USA for warranty fix and a SA-only trigger conversion (paid). I paid shipping "to."

Pistol came back in 3 weeks with a note that said: "Replaced spring guide rod, test fired okay." Some evidence of work on hammer surface, but that's it.

The SA trigger conversation I'd requested hadn't been done. I called CZ-USA and inquired why the trigger work was not done. The response I got was essentially, "We must have missed it, too bad for you." Well, gee, $60-70 in shipping ain't much, what do I care? Not.

I finally spoke to Alice @ CZ-USA and she agreed to reimburse me for shipping the pistol to them in the first place, since all they did was attempt a repair on a defective pistol that should have worked from the box.

Pistol still jams, but at about half the failure rate of before -- which still makes it useless for carry or IDPA. I sent it to Teddy Jacobson last week; he'll be able to fix it properly, and install the SA-only trigger I bought from CZ-USA.
[/list=1]

So-

Two of the four CZ's I've had have not run properly from the box. One was fixed by CZ-USA, and I paid shipping. The other was returned to me with the same failure mode I sent it for.

Two of the four CZ's I've had have had some cosmetic and so-far unimpairing casting flaw or defect. Since these weren't causing a failure or malfunction, CZ-USA wasn't going to do anything about it.

Two of the four CZ's I've had have worked almost flawlessly from the box.

CZ-USA still has their mitts on my CZ 85 Combat. On the other hand, Teddy Jacobson will get to working on my unreliable 75 Compact in the next month or two. I am pretty confident Teddy will do all that's possible for the Compact, but I do wonder how the 85 Combat will end up.

I do like CZ pistols. My 75B-SA is very accurate and easy to shoot. The Compact that works is a very nice shooter. The 85 Combat was aptly named - a near ideal "combat style" shooter. The other Compact was a nightmare.

From now on, when deciding if I will buy another CZ, I will add in the probability that the pistol won't run from the box, multiplied by the average cost to have it fixed, and I will expect some cosmetic (hopefully only!) flaws in the pistol.

If the best service is to never need to take advantage of it, then CZ misses this one. Furthermore, the lack of aggressively taking responsibility for reliability problems and ensuring they are fixed indicates that service is lacking.

For examples of how customer service should be run, see Dillon Precision as reported by just about everyone, or Dan Wesson as reported by those over on 1911forum.com. DW will issue a UPS pick-up tag for your pistol if there's something wrong with it, and has very fast turnaround.

Regards from an ambivalent CZ owner,
Zak

[The Silver Bullet 1719]

My CZ hasn't gave me any problems so far, or any others I have shot. I know a few people here on the boards have had some problems with them. I have heard nothing but good things about the EAA, and the Wonder finish is supposed to be really nice. But I still say CZ over EAA, then again I think Im biased.

[Zak Smith]

To be fair-er, I should report that a friend of mine has had a CZ 85 Combat since the early 90's, when they were still imported through Oakhurst CA (I think?). His pistol has operated virtually flawlessly since then.

-z

[chaim]

I have a CZ 75B in 9mm that I bought in Feb of last year and I absolutely love it. I had a couple minor hiccups while breaking it in (first 200rnds or so) but nothing since. I've put several thousand rounds through it (I stopped counting some time ago). It is incredibly accurate (my 6" S&W 586 is barely more accurate and the 75B beats my S&W 65 and everything else I own, owned, or have tried with the exception of my best friend's CZ 85 Combat). The fit and finish is very good. It fits my hand just about perfectly, and it seems to fit most people quite well.

I liked it so much I bought a CZ 40B. It was originally a little bit of a disappointment, I found that the accuracy (at least with me behind the trigger) was "only" average or just a tad better. Otherwise, I had one minor hiccup during break in (in the first 100 rounds). It is everybit as good as the 75 in fit and finish. However, I have just started thinking about trading it because I don't shoot it that much (about 1500 rounds+/- a few) because I'm not a big fan of the .40S&W chambering (nothing really wrong with it, it's just that I'm comfortable w/ 9mm for defense, you can't get .40 practice ammo anywhere near as cheap as 9mm and at near .45acp ammo prices it doesn't give me the fun or power of the .45). It fits my hand wonderfully, though not as well as the 75 (which is pretty much perfect).

I like CZ enough that I hope to buy a couple more (at least two of: CZ 75SA, CZ 85 Combat, CZ 75BD, CZ 97 and CZ100 in 9mm) before they disappear in MD (MD now has the built-in lock law and CZ won't put in the locks). In fact, if I trade the 40 it will probably be on either the 9mm 100 or the 9mm 75BD (though there are one or two non-CZ contenders, but I'd hate to get rid of a CZ for anything other than a CZ).

Also, I have some experience w/ my best friend's CZ 85 Combat. He actually wanted a Kimber but after shooting my 75B he decided to get the CZ for his first gun. Now that he has the $8-900 Kimber that he wanted he actually likes his CZ more.:cool: His gun may actually be a tad more accurate than my 6" S&W 586:what: . It has had a couple fairly mild hiccups but it is generally reliable, and I know he considers it very reliable and is willing to use it for HD (though only in theory, that I know of all his guns are in a locked safe and unloaded when not at the range). In the 6-10 months he's had it I'd estimate that he's put many thousands of rounds through it (he never seems to shoot less than 100-200 rounds of Winchester USA or S&B and he goes several times a month). I think he even likes it better than his newest baby- a ~$600 Kahr MK9.

To be fair, I do have one online buddy who has had trouble with his CZ 75, though he does put a ton of rounds through it (more weekly than many here probably do monthly).

No gun, or any other mechanical device, is perfect. Anyone can put out an occasional bad one. Heck, I own a Nissan Sentra (which has a great rep for reliability) which has been nothing but trouble (as was the first one I had). I've heard of bad Hondas and Toyotas too. There are bad Kimbers out there, bad SAs, bad SIGs, bad Glocks, etc. However, when you go with a reputable manufacturer your chances of a lemon are greatly reduced. Well, the CZ is easily more reputable than EAA. While there is the occasional lemon there aren't many. Then again, there won't be many bad EAAs either (just as there won't be that many bad Chevy's or even Hyundais) but you are better off with the more reputable name.

I would suggest the CZ with no hesitation.

[nvrquit]

... who other than Alice at CZ-USA did you converse with. Did you talk with Mike?

If you weren't happy with how CZ-USA treated you, then you would've really loved the way that EAA handled the situation I experienced. Truthfully, in my research(limited in scope that is has been to date), yours has been one of a very few with unresolved CZ issues. Sorry to hear about that. Check the links on my post and compare the situations and let me know which you think.

I have a CZ40B which has never misbehaved one bit. Not the best triger new, but it has improved a bit with wear-in. I have seen a friends PCR give a few FTE's & FTF's in the first 250 rnds, but after that it was flawless. Better trigger than my CZ40B.

[Zak Smith]

nvrquit,

The majority of my interactions with CZ-USA have been through Mike. In the end, it was Alice who agreed to reimburse me for shipping.

Perhaps my expectations are out of line- I naturally expect a product to work as advertised (that is- work!) and be free of mfg defects, cosmetic or otherwise. Lemons happen to virtually all companies, and though that's frustrating, I don't necessarily hold it against them. The best companies are genuinely embarrassed when one ends up in a customer's hands and will work hard with attention to detail to get the customer satisfied. I should not have to perform feats of social engineering to find the "right person" to talk to; the company is responsible for their customer service agents, who-ever they might be.

I didn't end up completely satisfied with my interactions with CZ-USA (and/though the 85 Combat work is still pending), but I admit that I gave up on them. It's not worth the time and effort to keep pushing; I'll just have someone else fix it.

After all this, my 75B-SA is still my favorite "shooting" pistol. My outlook now is that when I buy a CZ, I'm getting a design with certain advantages and shortfalls implemented to a certain Q.C. level.

regards
Zak

[braindead0]

so, as I search around for info..I find someone with the same quandary..

One thing I do like about the Witness, is the ability to convert it. I'd like to get a steel 9mm with a .45 'conversion kit'. I figure the 9mm would be cheaper to shoot (IDPA too), but the .45 packs a bigger punch...

Possibly consider a compact version for easier CCW.

Do CZ's have similar options with conversion?

[Tecolote]

Poor service isn't excused by worse service from another company. If CZs claim to fame is that service is better than EAA then CZ has cast its lot with poor company. They should strive for 100% customer satisfaction.

I've had bad luck with CZs too, sn unreliable Compact and a POS pre-B. If others have had good luck that's great but it doesn't change the fact that the two that I've had were junk. :eek: I liked the CZ design but I've had better luck with IMI Jerichos. I'm sure some here has had a IMI lemon because nothing made by man is 100% reliable.

[Sean Smith]

I've owned both. CZ beats EAA on all fronts... fit and finish, accuracy, trigger pull, reliability, overall quality. The EAA wasn't bad, the CZ was just noticeably better for about the same price. And EAA service IS atrocious.

[WESHOOT2]

I just prefer my Witnesses.

EAA service sucked (1995) so I sent my gun elsewhere, and the rest I've done myself.

[Gusgus]

I own a CZ-75B, Tanfoglio Compact 10mm, and a IMI Baby Eagle. Thought I can't find fault with any of them, the Eagle has a slight quality, comfort, and accuracy edge. With that said, I'd buy again from each manufacturer without hesitation.

[Pilot]

I really like both my CZ-75B Mil and PCR. Both have operated flawlessly out of the box and are very accurate. I also have the .22 Kadet Kit which has been a dream to shoot. The cosmetics and the function have been perfect on both so no need to test their customer service....yet.

Zak,

Sorry to hear about your problems with CZ. Please let us know how they do with your CZ-85 Combat.

[Zak Smith]

Pilot,

I got the CZ 85 COMBAT back yesterday. Mike replaced the hammer, trigger, and sear with those from the "Champion" models. The trigger has no take-up, and minimal overtravel. It breaks as cleanly as a good 1911 trigger. I'm more or less satisfied with this one: trigger is excellent, but the safety is a little sticky/mushy.

-z

[nvrquit]

... like my Tan Compact was the last time I got it back after being serviced by EAA.

Not the best of situations for you Zak, however it doesn't appear that CZ-USA wished/wishes to sluff you off like dirt from their collective shoes, as EAA has shone such contempt for my situation.

Good luck with your CZ85 Combat, I hope it eventually works out for the best for you!

[duncan]

All I know is that I see a lot more accessories offered by EAA for the Witness series.

And you can't buy a 10mm or 357 sig CZ.

Witness no doubt.

[nvrquit]

duncan,

No doubt I too like the ability to "accessorize" a pistol with readily available parts that require no or little effort to make work. Trouble is that in some peoples experiences(and not only mine) the Tan's as supported by EAA have had the effort take on the mantle of gussying up a Yugo.

Looks like a Fiat, just doesn't perform(and that's a VERY lose description of that term in relation to the model Fiat copied) and isn't supported in any way near like the original.

IMHO, that's the worst shame of all, as the Tan line-up with just a little more tweaking, QC and strong CS would definitely increase USA market share... but NOT in the current guise.


BTW, when did Tan add the .357Sig to the imported Witness line-up?

[care-less]

Never buy a copy

[Gusgus]

BTW, when did Tan add the .357Sig to the imported Witness line-up?

As far as I know, they haven't. What ducan should have said is "you can't buy a 10mm or 38 Super CZ."

But then again, you can't buy a .32 ACP or .380 Auto Witness (CZ-83).

[Morgan]

I've had four CZ's, and currently have three of them (gave one to someone who needed it).

Old, pre-B model 75.
New, "Turk" model 75b.
Brushed stainless 75b.
PCR.

All have been flawless.

A friend has a 75bd, which has, to my knowlege, been fine as well.

Another friend has a Tangfolglio (not imported by EAA - must be old?) which has been flawless also.

Personally, I'd stick with CZ unless I needed a 10mm.

[nvrquit]

Morgan,

AFAIK, CZ hasn't ever made a stainless pistol. Is perhaps the 75B you havve a satin nickel finish? Did you purchase the "stainless" 75B new, or was it pre-owned?

[makarov]

If it is a CZ it is a satin-nickel finish. Nice durable finish. I like the look of the blued models better, but it depends on what you are going to use it for.

[Morgan]

Mea culpa - it was a satin nickel. I generally prefer dark finishes, which is probably why this one went to another good home.

[Zak Smith]

The trigger on this as returned from CZ was excellent, but at the expense of safety, in my opinion. It would be okay for competition, but for a pistol without a firing pin safety, the hammer/sear engagement was way too small - I estimate it was around 0.005" or less - and the half-cock notch was also very small.

I removed the Champion hammer & sear and replaced them with the original CZ85C hammer & sear and the pistol now operates as you'd expect with the SA-only Champion trigger: a hard and somewhat creepy SA pull. But there is lots (actually "full") hammer/sear engagement and the pistol is "safe."

-z