CMP Rifles.....again


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444
September 15, 2004, 10:53 PM
Just for the sake of discussion, I would be interested in knowing what percentage of these rifles are ever fired in a CMP match ? It seems to me that most of the almost weekly threads about buying a rifle from the CMP at some point discusses how to get around the requirement of firing a match. This seems weird to me. Here we have a group of avid shooters. Someone says: Hey, if you go out and shoot one match, you can qualify to buy US military surplus rifles. And the avid shooter's answer is, how can I get out of that requirement ? :confused: Shoot a rifle match ???? Who me ??? Actually put my marksmanship skills on display for everyone to see ?? Practice to get better ??? Shoot at something besides beer cans and old appliances ? No way, not me.
What if "they" came out and said, we have all the US military 1911s sitting here in a warehouse. All you have to do to qualify to buy one is to shoot one formal bullseye match ?
Just imagine if the CMP didn't exist prior to today and on today's news you discovered that a brand new program has been unveiled to the public. Military firearms are going to be available for sale to the public in order to promote marksmanship among the civilian population. We would fall all over ourselves with joy. We would think it had to be a joke: in today's society something like this couldn't possibly exist. I know if I saw this on the news tonight I wouldn't be able to sleep. I would call in sick to work tomorrow to get in on this unbelievable opportunity. Clubs would spring up overnight to hold matches so everyone could qualify. To me, this news would trump the AWB sunset by a wide margin.
But it does exist and not many people are taking advantage of it. It is now old news and has no novelty.

Ok, I brought it up, I will go first: I have never shot a CMP match before or after buying a number of CMP rifles. But, I am going to start. I am no longer satisfied plinking, shooting off a rest, not being able to shoot offhand or from positions...........with rifles. I want to learn to shoot one the right way and become good with it. I did this same thing long ago with handguns.

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cracked butt
September 15, 2004, 11:04 PM
I've never heard of CMP until I attended a CMP match at my club. They gave me a M1, ammo, and some instructions and I was hooked. Took me until about a year later to find out What CMP really was and that they sold these fabulous M1s, so I bought one so I could have one of my own to practice with, to hold lovingly, and so I didn't have to borrow a rifle from the club for the highpower matches that I discovered I liked so much.:cool:

444
September 15, 2004, 11:05 PM
BRAVO

At least we all didn't slip through the cracks. Good for you.

dav
September 16, 2004, 12:21 AM
And I want to do a CMP match, but don't know how to go about it.

Where, when, who, etc? Dunno.

Steve in PA
September 16, 2004, 12:30 AM
Go to the CMP web site, they have lots of links to different clubs that hold CMP shoots, quals etc.

RavenVT100
September 16, 2004, 12:41 AM
I went ahead and had an NRA instructor observe my shooting and then fill out the CMP's proof of marksmanship activity form. It's just as good as having participated in the match for purposes of being eligible to buy rifles.

I am also a member of a CMP-affiliated club.

Trebor
September 16, 2004, 01:30 AM
I fired at a CMP clinic to get my first Garand. That, or a full-on Highpower Match, was the only way to qualify then. The problem was, it took me several years to find a CMP affiliated club that held clinics. There just weren't any in my area until I moved and I didn't have an appropriate rifle to shoot a full Highpower Match, even if I could have found one of those.

Matt-man
September 16, 2004, 02:35 AM
I shot a CMP match, ordered a Garand, got it 6 months later. Shot it every once in a while, didn't shoot any more matches. A year and a half after my first CMP match, I got an M1A and started shooting it regularly at matches. Now that rifle's down for upgrades (waiting on a barrel) and I'm shooting the M1 twice a month in matches.

I love shooting high-power matches. I never would have started if it wasn't for the CMP marksmanship requirement.

cracked butt
September 16, 2004, 03:24 AM
I hate to be critical of CMP as they are a fine and one-of-a-kind organization, however if I were to structure the requirements, I would make some changes. The recently eased up on the requirements, but I think they went in the wrong direction.

At the club in my little corner of the world, matches are open to the public, but you need to be a member to get a loaner M1+ammo, for youths and women (if they choose) they also load out M1 carbines and ammo. If you are not a member of the club and show up to shoot, don't own a service rifle, or don't have a friend with such equipment lined up ahead of time, you are S-O-L. Joining the club isn't very expensive, but there's a fairly long waiting list, along with work hours requirements. I'm not sure if this is how CMP matches are handled in other areas, but this is what my limited experience has shown me.

Where I grew up, there were at least 1 small trap club in every town, where anyone could join without waiting lists or great expense- the club I belonged to when I was a teenager cost $5 per year, there were no formal rifle ranges in my area. In Urban areas, from what I've seen, belonging to outdoor shooting clubs can be prohibitively expensive, and indoor pistol ranges are usually run by gunshops and don't have any sort of membership system.

I'm not a member of GCA and don't know much about it, but I don't think it should be a substitute for belonging to some sort of shooting establishment.

Here's what I would recommend:

1. membership in a shooting club, not necessarily a CMP affiliated club:- trap club, Rifle&pistol club, or proof of active use of an indoor range- such as score sheets from a weekly pistol league.

2. Have CMP affiliated clubs allow for nonmembers to be coached in marksmanship at CMP matches, allow for borrowing of rifles and dispensation of ammo for a nominal fee. An extra $10 should more than cover the cost of the ammo. (the match fee at my club is typically $7.50) Advertising matches in local newspapers wouldn't hurt much either.

3. NRA membership- if you are going to shoot highpower, you are going to join anyhow to track scores and get a competitor card. Some clubs require a membership anyhow.


I don't think the current requirements are really all that hard to meet, but accessing a CMP match may too difficult for most people and they get turned off. A couple of years ago when I started shooting, I wanted to introduce my dad and a few friends to the sport, but without equipment of my own at the time, I could not make it happen.

Steve Smith
September 16, 2004, 03:53 AM
Dav, contact member Sven (go to your private message screen, click new message, type in Sven as the recipient.) He is in your area and can point you in the direction of HP matches there.

Jmurman
September 16, 2004, 08:32 AM
Here in Maryland, finding a place to shoot Garands is a pain. I too went through the "finding a club to join just to shoot matches to buy a Garand thing" After contacting CMP they told me that if I was a Vet, which I am, then just a copy of my DD214 will do.

Bingo!

444
September 16, 2004, 08:45 AM
Note that even on this thread, several people are listing the ways that got around the match requirement.

I don't know about anyplace but here. In this general area there are two places you can shoot a CMP match and a third expected to start shooting matches in about two months.
As I said, I have never shot one, but I have shot all kinds of other matches: so I am making the guess that if you found out about one, and showed up at one, that someone would be more than happy to let you use their equipment to shoot your first match. I would be willing to bet that they would lay out the red carpet for you to get new people involved. Of course the problem is finding these matches in the first place.

JohnBT
September 16, 2004, 08:53 AM
We didn't get around the match requirement...there is no match requirement the way there used to be. I don't think it's right to criticize folks for following the rules.

John

444
September 16, 2004, 09:05 AM
Before you get overly sensitive, no one here is being critical of anybody else. If you read my original post you will see that I also never fired a match. I sent them a copy of my honorable discharge. But I do think you are missing my point.
The point of the CMP is to promote civilian marksmanship. Long ago, it was decided that the best way to accomplish this was by holding matches for civilians to shoot.
The CMP wasn't put there so people could collect M1 rifles. It wasn't there so people could buy a new deer rifle. It wasn't put there so people could get something at a good price to trade for something else they want. It wasn't put there so someone could have a sentimental treasure in memory of their dad or uncle. It wasn't there so bubba could get something to plink at an old computer or dishwasher with. It was put there to promote civilian marksmanship through using those rifles in formal matches. I for one think it is a shame that we arn't holding up our end of the bargin. Like I said before, if this all just came out on last night's news, we would all be falling over ourselves to get in on it. But now, it is a question of doing the least we can to get what we want.

Swampy
September 16, 2004, 09:14 AM
444 wrote:

The CMP wasn't put there so people could collect M1 rifles. It wasn't there so people could buy a new deer rifle. It wasn't put there so people could get something at a good price to trade for something else they want. It wasn't put there so someone could have a sentimental treasure in memory of their dad or uncle. It wasn't there so bubba could get something to plink at an old computer or dishwasher with.

It (CMP) was put there to promote civilian marksmanship through using those rifles in formal matches. I for one think it is a shame that we arn't holding up our end of the bargin. Like I said before, if this all just came out on last night's news, we would all be falling over ourselves to get in on it. But now, it is a question of doing the least we can to get what we want.


Again...... BRAVO !!!

My thoughts exactly.

Best to all,
Swampy

Garands forever

Steve Smith
September 16, 2004, 09:53 AM
444, I know quite a few competitors disagree, but I agree with you 100%. While some would say that I am being elitist, I would say that I appreciate the original idea, as you do.

Shooting matches is not only fun, but it's very educational. Alas, some people are just afraid.

Darkmind
September 16, 2004, 10:05 AM
So does anybody have any links or info for matches in michigan? I would like to start to get into HP matches. I'm in the process of saveing up for an M1A and i'm looking at getting a garand.

RavenVT100
September 16, 2004, 10:23 AM
The whole reason I bypassed the match and used the marksmanship activity form was because it's a catch-22; I want to compete with a rifle that I'm familiar with, but I'd have to use someone else's rifle for the initial match. I'd rather become accustomed to my own rifle than someone else's before competition. CMP makes this possible by letting you fill out the firearms activity form.

After I get my Garand, I can get myself accustomed to it just in time for the next Garand match at my CMP-affiliated club. What's wrong with that? I think it's awesome.

Believe me, if I wanted a rifle to hang on my wall, I could've gotten one for far less, and I would've have had to invest all the money and time that I have at my club. My CMP Garand will see the use that it was intended for- In a Garand match.

Black Snowman
September 16, 2004, 10:51 AM
I really enjoy shooting organized competition. Bowling pins, various "combat" style shoots, etc. . . However finding them, meeting all the requirements, etc . . . can be prohibitively difficult and time consuming. For instance. I'm in Kansas City. A large city in the midwest. Should have several long-range rifle ranges. Nope. Closest 200 yard range is 2 hours away.

The closest range I've found hosting a high-power match is a 3 hour drive into Kansas. Although fun, I'd rather drive 20 minutes to one of the local ranges and spend the extra time shooting. Hopefully another KC denizen will see this post, tell me I'm an idiot, and point me to the obvious choice I've been looking for all these years.

I want a CMP Garand, I want to qualify by shooting, and I want to try my hand at some formal rifle shoots (I'd love to do 3 gun) but I just can't seem to track down what I'm looking for in my area.

Swampy
September 16, 2004, 12:41 PM
Black Snowman wrote:

I'm in Kansas City. A large city in the midwest. Should have several long-range rifle ranges. Nope. Closest 200 yard range is 2 hours away.

Sorry guy, don't know who told you that, but it's a really big load of BS........:D

Pioneer Gun Club is just SE of the city off of I-70. LOTS of comp stuff there, including CMP NRA Highpower and Military BA matches (also Shotgun and Pistola stuff, IIRC).

Bucksnort Shooting Range is just North of I-70 on US-65 (90 miles from DOWNTOWN KCMO). Four lane all the way. An hour and 15 minutes if you drive the speed limit. Bucksnort holds NRA-CMP X-course on a 600 yds range.

Mill Creek Gun club is just outside DeSoto KS and has a full NRA, CMP, and local club Highpower matches all year long. Maybe 30 miles from downtown KC.

If I'm not mistaken there is another club at Bonner Springs that has at least 200 yds but I can't remember the name of the club at present. Ask around.

You do not have to be a member of any of those clubs to shoot in the scheduled matches.

I'm coming up from Springfield TOMORROW to the Mill Creek range @ DeSoto to shoot in the KS State Service Rifle Championships this weekend. Saturday is an Across the Course 80 round NRA match (200-300-500 yards), Sunday is a 50 round CMP-EIC (Leg Match, also 200-300-500 yds) and a 30 round CMP John C. Garand Match (200 yds).

There is NO Excuse for a citizen of Kansas City for not finding a CMP event. ;)

Get off the stick and get involved....... :D

Best regards,
Swampy

Garands forever

444
September 16, 2004, 12:50 PM
Something else that occured to me after I started this thread:

As a kid, I was as interested in guns as I am today and I read everything I could on the subject. At some point, I read about the system of national defense in Switzerland. As I understand it, they have a small standing Army, but every able bodied male recieves some training and is given a rifle to take home and is then part of their military. They are required to qualify periodically and a gun culture sprouted up around rifle shooting. Some have called Switzerland "a nation of riflemen". Again, as I understand it, recreation rifle shooting is or was popular in that country. From what I have been lead to believe, this primarily consists of formal target shooting on a range. I have even read about a period of time in the summer when people spend a couple weeks going from rifle match to rifle match with some of the matches attracting 10s of thousands of people. Of course I thought this was terrific. What could be better than the government giving you a rifle, teaching you to use it, and then encouraging you to stay proficient ? What more could you ask of a society than to have rifle shooting as a popular pastime enjoyed by many and not looked down upon as extremist activity ?
Obviously it recently occured to me, that that whole concept isn't all that different from what we have in this country with the CMP. It isn't compulsory (sp ?). And they don't give you the rifle: but the price is less than what you would pay for the same rifle most anywhere else. And they provide matches and clinics for you to establish and maintain your skills with a rifle.
I guess the more I thought about this subject, the more it surprises me that so few people take advantage of the opportunity.

JohnBT
September 16, 2004, 03:13 PM
"But I do think you are missing my point."

Nope, not at all. Just didn't like the wording of "...the ways that got around the match requirement."

No one got around anything. We met the posted requirements.

I filled out all of the paperwork and haven't bought the first CMP gun. After 50 years of mostly shooting used guns I can afford nice new ones now.

John...I've never been told I was sensitive before. Touchy maybe. :)

TrapperReady
September 16, 2004, 03:35 PM
I shoot a CMP match locally almost every month. I've shot a number of them with the Garand I purchased from the CMP, but I also shoot some of them with my AR as practice for reduced-course Service Rifle events.

It's too bad more folks don't take part in the CMP events. The ones here are VERY laid back, with the emphasis on safety and fun. The competetive part is almost forgotten. A lot of people will show up with '03s, Garands, or even WWI-WWII vintage military bolt-action rifles. If they're a little slow on the rapid-fire stages, they are always given enough extra time to finish.

NRA Highpower events can be a little intimidating, since there is a much higher level of competition, but the CMP shoots are great for getting started or casual shooters.

Jmurman
September 16, 2004, 03:59 PM
Do any of you all know of any Garand Match's in Maryland?

Black Snowman
September 16, 2004, 07:16 PM
Thanks Swampy, just what I was hoping for! All previous inquaries on here about long range shooting near KC in the past have come up with bumpkis ;)

I love it when someone proves me wrong :D

Swampy
September 16, 2004, 08:33 PM
Black Snowman,

Check out:

Pioneer Gun Club (http://www.pioneergunclub.org )

and

Missouri Highpower.Com (http://www.mohighpower.com)

Be sure to check the schedule pages for BOTH Missouri and Kansas. MO will show Bucksnort (among others) and KS will show Mill Creek.

Best of luck,
Swampy

Garands forever

444
September 17, 2004, 02:02 PM
"No one got around anything. We met the posted requirements."

Not to beat a dead horse, but you did miss my point. The statement was made in reference to posts being made on the subject that were bascially asking how they could get around having to compete in a CMP match. The answer to that question obviously was that you don't have to shoot a CMP match, there are other ways to qualify: but the question was how to avoid shooting the match.

Trebor
September 17, 2004, 03:57 PM
Here's a good resource for High Power shooting. They have links to the state associations as well.

www.nationalmatch.us

Mad Man
September 17, 2004, 06:31 PM
And I want to do a CMP match, but don't know how to go about it.

Go to one as an observer, first. And observe and ask questions.

My first high-power rifle match was a very frustrating experience.

I had no idea what was going on nor exactly what I was supposed to be doing.

When you're on the firing line is not a good time to be trying to figure things out.

VG
September 17, 2004, 10:14 PM
At the club in my little corner of the world, matches are open to the public, but you need to be a member to get a loaner M1+ammo, for youths and women (if they choose) they also load out M1 carbines and ammo. If you are not a member of the club and show up to shoot, don't own a service rifle, or don't have a friend with such equipment lined up ahead of time, you are S-O-L. Joining the club isn't very expensive, but there's a fairly long waiting list, along with work hours requirements. I'm not sure if this is how CMP matches are handled in other areas, but this is what my limited experience has shown me.
That's not typical here in MA - you know, that Liberal, Anti-Gun state. I belong to two clubs, Braintree Rifle & Pistol and Reading Rifle & Revolver.

Braintree has a monthly 100 yard "CMP" match, which is not listed on the CMP website despite havin been held on the 3rd Saturday of the month March - November for about 25 years. It's $15 if you use the club rifles and ammo (your choice of AR15 or M1) or $5 if you bring your own. You don't have to be a member. Inexperienced shooters shoot in the first heats and more experienced shooters are expected to spot and coach the newer shooters.

Reading Rifle has clinics early in the season, two JC Garand matches a season, and 80-100 round High Power or other similar matches out to 600 yards. They also charge a nominal fee for rifle and ammo, don't require membership, and I believe youth shooters compete for free.

www.bmp.org
www.readingrifle.com

There are a number of other clubs in the Boston area that are similarly active, as well as a number in NH.

S_O_Laban
September 18, 2004, 02:25 AM
Blacksnowman, I am pretty sure that at Mill creek they have a 300 yard range. I'm not a member of Mill creek but one of the guys I work with is and I have been out there to shoot several times. Very nice place. If I lived on the KS side I would definetly buy a membership. Actually the Pioneer range is much closer to my home but I've never shot there.

Swampy
September 20, 2004, 09:47 AM
Laban wrote:

Blacksnowman, I am pretty sure that at Mill creek they have a 300 yard range. I'm not a member of Mill creek but one of the guys I work with is and I have been out there to shoot several times. Very nice place. If I lived on the KS side I would definetly buy a membership. Actually the Pioneer range is much closer to my home but I've never shot there.

Mill Creek Range has a Higpower field out to 500 yds.

Currently the 500 yd firing line is only open when they have a scheduled "Across the Course" match. When shooting beyond the 300 yd firing points the rest of the range has to be shut down due to the possibility (extreme, but real) of stray rounds coming into other shooting areas. During normal club conditions you can't shoot beyond the 300 yard line.

I'm not a member of Mill Creek but have been there a couple times for Highpower matches (Just came back last night from the Kansas State Service Rifle Champs). You might contact Sandy Sandgren, who is the Highpower Match Director there, and ask him if there is ever a time when the 500 points can be used for practice, assuming of course that noone else is on the range in any of the exposed areas........ Does not hurt to ask. ;)

Best of luck in finding a range,
Swampy

Garands forever

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