Grrrr I finally got to the end...


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Tharg
September 17, 2004, 01:48 AM
An the damn topic was locked.... <sigh>

http://forum.johnkerry.com/index.php?showtopic=74012&st=360

That misha person reminds me of my real mother - vs my Step-mother (who i'd usually call mom if i had to choose... of course i don't ever say that... its rude and would hurt feelings)

Point being my real mom is a "his name is shrub" and "all guns are evil and should be banned" and "i've never needed one - why should anyone have one" and etc etc etc person....

Obviously gonna vote for Kerry this election.

My step mom - could prolly vote for anyone - but it will be on a informed basis. She will look at the bits kerry has to say (does) and the bits Bush has to say (does) and decide from there. I bet she even does some web research instead of just listening to the news. And then she makes her vote. Doesn't push for one person over the other... doesn't try to convince anyone else of it... etc etc.

I'm so tired of people espousing what they read on the news and call it fact before they even think about it. Part of the current culture i guess.

You know - BOTH sides (kerry/bush) USE this on the american public - just like EVERY politician. They know there is that % that will be dogmatic about it (i only vote dem, i only vote rep) those that well go on hedge issues (i love my guns - but then RKBA is a hedge issue... an IMPORTANT hedge issue to ME... but one none the less), Those that could go either way depending on who they "like more" (that GW just seems likeable to me - like he's a good guy - someone i can relate to) and finally those that could go either way depending on which one seems right to them. (don't much care for abortion - but that kerry guy doesn't want evil guns on the street( / insert issue here) - i'll go for him.)

The poli's are only interested in the last 3... the others are made up already.

<sigh> if only america was better informed to actually BE the LAST one - and if only our press (who is tasked with reporting the truth - not just the scandelous or ratings worthy news) reported facts.

Bleh - just ramblings...

J/Tharg!

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reagansquad
September 17, 2004, 02:51 AM
Yeah, but if everyone knew the truth then we'd have to have more than 2 political parties because only a small minority would buy into anything the republicats and demicons are saying.

OtG
September 17, 2004, 02:57 AM
Point being my real mom is a "his name is shrub" and "all guns are evil and should be banned" and "i've never needed one - why should anyone have one" and etc etc etc person....

I feel your pain. My mom (and almost all of my family, and almost all of my friends) feel the same way. AND they bitch about the horror -the HORROR- of being exposed to people who could actually SUPPORT A REPUBLICAN!!!
I think I'd catch more crap for voting Republican than I would for murdering homeless people. (Kidding. Mostly.)
I think I'm the only person I know who is honest-to-god in the Undecided category.
It's. . . frustrating. . . to be the only person I know who DOESN'T think the GWB is a baby-killing, Iraqi-murdering, oil-stealing stooge of Halliburton.
Who wants to murder bambi and schoolchildren with evil street-sweeping hip-fired bullet spraying military death machines.

Sheesh.

He's not great, but I wouldn't mind hearing a moderate opinion about the guy once in a while. I guess that's what the internet is for.
Oh, to actually MEET someone who has an considered opinion on politics.



Oh yeah.
That thread was kind of hard to read (like a VPC press release) in places, but there were good pro-gun arguments, and one of the good guys got the last word.

Maybe this should be the gripe thread.
;)


-Owen

joab
September 17, 2004, 03:16 AM
I thought I saw you over there.
I was getting to aggressive so I had to back off and compliment Misha on a good debate
Misha actually did conduct himself well even if his arguments were based on Brady misinformation and rainbow stew mentality. I liked him though
Teacher TK and Big Sky guy were over the top and as visious as you would exoect them to be

Tharg
September 17, 2004, 05:20 AM
Ya i was over there- Misha actually got me - which i was going to mention in my post. The quote i fielded actually DID say "reports of gun crimes" not "gun deaths" (in england/wales) The quote shifted focus on me mid sentence (and i didn't catch it... bad me!)

But i was ready to go off on her after one of her last posts (go off in a civilized fact grinding way, not a your a <insert stupid 3rd grade insult here> way)

It was like she was comming around to the idea that what she thought wasn't true... so she dodged back to the brady site. (its comfortable and says what she wants to hear vs. what is objective) THEN came out w/ the post (yet again) about how "guns are for killing people" - oh and yer 30.06 aught (get it?) to be plenty to protect yourself with.

Then w/ the "people who really need and frequently use handguns are criminals"......??? So i guess the other 60? 80? million people out there using guns are doing??? what?

Bleh - the car argument never rides... cause people won't do w/o thier cars - and don't understand why people who have/keep/depend on thier guns for fun/defense/interest/hunting won't do w/o them....

I personally like the knife example better. The argument could be that the sole purpose of a knife is to cut or stab.... of course they fall back on the fact that you CAN wound/kill more people w/ a gun in an indescriminate fury of complete nut-jobby-ness. - altho i'd sure like to see this one tested since i bet someone could wend through a crowd pretty quick - stab here stab there and do a lot before anyone caught on...

I guess cut/pierce only accounted for around 1100 of the deaths in 2001.

Loaf of bread worth a hand? Dunno - might be if it only took 3-10 hands to make people figure out what will happen to them. a rape worth an execution - in my mind... yeap. I'm prolly one of those extremist computer geeks who plays games tho... <roflmao>

People ARE willing to point to Brittain and Australia quickly - never mind that both of thier crime rates have skyrocketed since the bans... so i guess yer safer from being shot to death... but have a MUCH greater chance of being in an incident to begin with. heh ye haw....

(i know i'm starting to ramble ... one more thing... rofl)
Since everyone seems to be espousing that "gun deaths" will go down w/ a ban They might! - be less wife shooting hubby (or vice versa), be less angry guy gets a hair up his butt and decides to get revenge, be less robber w/ a gun.

Course - be more hubby gets stabbed by angry wife (or vice versa), more guy stabs other guy (or beats the dogsnot outta him w/a bat), be more knife at yer throat in a robbery. (and of course - if the guy w/ the illegal gun comes at cha too) - course - you won't be armed... for any of those... less you have the afore mentioned tools as well - but then aren't we just shifting tools?

<shakes head> I can't understand how someone doesn't see that... the criminal assuming the gun isn't available to him will just go to the next best thing... and hell - the next best thing could be as valuable as the last one was... since he knows that the law abiding person pretty basically isn't going to have the last best thing either....

Once we get done w/ gun bans - gonna have to work on knife and club bans.... oh - and food that we can suck through a straw or spoon only allowed....

oh and to finalize - don't you think it would be amusing - in a perfect world of "yes we completely irradicated all guns from the hands of the lawless and the lawfull" to see if that homicide rate stayed at around 20k or so total.... Someone needs to computer model it... they got number crunchers that can do that right? <rofl> I say this because while there ARE the few VERY well publicized stories about one guy and X or more poeple dying to his gun... they aren't exactly..... common... comparitively at all. In fact i think the guy who pops the store clerk (and his however many "peers" that do the same) have far outdone the few complete nutjobs.

J/Tharg!

joab
September 17, 2004, 11:04 AM
All of the anti arguments were based, as usual, on Brady lies and fear and emotion,
While Misha was uncharacteristically even tempered he/she also stubbornly refused to consider the possibility that what she based her position on may be incorrect.

In discussions like that the goal probably should not be to change the minds of the actual participants in the discussion. Their minds were made up long ago and, they as are we, are not going to change their minds easily.

The goal as I see it is to put out as many factual, verifiable and reasonable rebuttals to their misinformation and to battle their emotional argument with a factual argument.

Not to change their minds but to effect the opinions of the fence sitters who either don't post but lurk in the background.
If you look at any discussion such as this you will see that the number pf replies is very small compared to the number of views.
You will also see a few who will post one or two basic questions that sometimes seem almost ignorant or adversarial (?) I believe that these are the people who are trying to make an informed decision, the so called fence sitters.

Bringing them over to our side is not as satisfying as causing the Mishas to openly admit that they have had a change of heart but in the end may be more important and is absolutly much more likely.

TarpleyG
September 17, 2004, 12:33 PM
I can't wade through all the quotes long enough to make heads or tails of what's going on over there. Why do people find it necessary to hit the quote button before every single reply? I thank god Oleg and those in charge opted to negate that function here because I wouldn't have been here this long.

Greg

Tharg
September 17, 2004, 12:40 PM
heheh actually - the few times i posted - it automatically quoted - and they were too lazy to select/delete the automatically generated quote.

Man - its getting rough these days when one is even too lazy to edit thier own post so it isn't rife w/ nothing that has to do w/ what you are saying =)

heh

J/Tharg!

Jonathan
September 17, 2004, 01:24 PM
I personally like the knife example better. The argument could be that the sole purpose of a knife is to cut or stab.... of course they fall back on the fact that you CAN wound/kill more people w/ a gun in an indescriminate fury of complete nut-jobby-ness. - altho i'd sure like to see this one tested since i bet someone could wend through a crowd pretty quick - stab here stab there and do a lot before anyone caught on...


There is a very good example of a knife-wielding attacker from a few years ago.

It took place in Japan: a mentally disturbed (janitor?) person at a school went nuts with a common knife and injured many, killing 8. Mostly kids, if I remember correctly.

His execution (very rare in Japan) warranted a minor 4th-page paragraph in my local paper when it finally took place last week.


Criminal actions will always be limited by their capacity for evil, not their tool of choice.

Tharg
September 17, 2004, 01:36 PM
Thank you Johnathan. Figured there had to be an example somewhere of someone doing something that is used in just about every "gun debate" i've seen.

<sigh>

completely agree'd... the tool is not the issue.

J/Tharg!

joab
September 17, 2004, 02:01 PM
There is a very good example of a knife-wielding attacker from a few years ago. I had forgotten all about thatI can't wade through all the quotes long enough to make heads or tails of what's going on over there. Why do people find it necessary to hit the quote button before every single reply? Disecting a post line by line is a much easier way to address the points made.I thank god Oleg and those in charge opted to negate that function here because I wouldn't have been here this long. I have never been to a forum that uses their format

noonanda
September 17, 2004, 03:03 PM
Yep I got in the last word. I taked to the moderator that locked the post, they said it would most likely be unlocked in a few days once everyone has cooled off a little bit. Othere than bigskybrad and teacher731, it was interesting to hear thier views that are based only from what they have read on the brady and VPC sites. I tried to stay level headed about the whole thing, even when I was mocked by acouple of them. The quotes from hell thing does get annoying, I started to space quotes from anti's with my own answers. I think the Misha lady has good intentions, but the solution she wants is not realistic and would not work.

Typhoon
September 17, 2004, 04:11 PM
Criminal actions will always be limited by their capacity for evil, not their tool of choice.

Another kudo for Jonathan, for very succinctly making the final argument on the "evil gun" issue. I'll have to remember that quote. Even law enforcement folks are rethinking the "21 Foot Rule" for knife attacks. Not to mention the effectiveness of box-cutters and Boeing 767's.

As for me, I took great delight in being exit-polled during the 2000 presidential election. I could just see the wheels whirring about Jane Poll-worker's head when I handed back my form... "Wait a minute!!! A single, white professional woman living in Los Angeles and voting for Bush??? Can't be..."

On to 2004.

Andrea

Typhoon
September 17, 2004, 06:40 PM
Criminal actions will always be limited by their capacity for evil, not their tool of choice.

Thinking again...

"Criminals will always be defined by their capacity for evil, not their tool of choice."

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