How Many Refuse to Fly?


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Cosmoline
September 17, 2004, 07:24 PM
I haven't flown for over two years now, in spite of the fact that I'm in Alaska and it's basically the only way to go. On my last flight in 2002, the screeners basically forced us to strip. My jacket, shoes, belt, etc. all came off. The screener took my wallet, fingered through it, examined my ID and my ticket, and then passed it around the detector while half a dozen people walked by it and I was helpless in line.

At other times, I had witnessed screeners open checked bags for inspection and laugh at underwear and other private objects they found inside--all in the open view of those at the ticket counter. I witnessed them pocket my own best lighter, along with numerous other personal objects. I accepted all this in the interest of post 9/11 security.

But that last time, standing half naked in line, something in me went *SNAP*. Seeing all of us there, shoeless and being pressed along by security guards who were (ironically enough) mostly foreign nationals, all under the watchful eye of men with loaded firearms. It made me think of other lines of half-naked people under the eye of armed men asking for papers. I knew at that moment that had I been singled out on some trumped-up nonsense or asked to submit to invasive searching, I would not have been able to control myself anymore.

One word sprung to my mind over and over again. RAPE. I was being raped by my own government. Not sexually probed, but stripped bare, humiliated and made to submit to their will. That's the essence of rape.

So I don't fly now, and probably never will again even though it means I may never see most of my family. The airports have become a terrifying vision of what the nation as a whole might one day devolve into. And if that day comes, I'll either join a proper revolution or by the allmighty I'll scatter my brains with a 54R.

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Carlos
September 17, 2004, 07:34 PM
I'm with you on all of this. TSA pisses me off to no end. I have no plans of flying again.

The only thing I'd do differently would be the choice of ammo - 45ACP for me.

:fire:

Werewolf
September 17, 2004, 07:34 PM
So I don't fly now, and probably never will again even though it means I may never see most of my family. The airports have become a terrifying vision of what the nation as a whole might one day devolve into. And if that day comes, I'll either join a proper revolution or by the allmighty I'll scatter my brains with a 54R. What Cosmoline said - in SPADES!

444
September 17, 2004, 07:36 PM
I won't say that I am not going to ever fly again. But, I am not planning on it. And the TSA is the reason. I usually fly at least once a year but I haven't flown for several years now. I normally go to visit my parents on the other side of the county for Thanksgiving. This year, I am driving. A couple thousand mile round trip. But, there is a matter of principle here.

Das Pferd
September 17, 2004, 07:43 PM
I dont fly. But its because of my girly like fear of heights.

Vermont Guy
September 17, 2004, 07:43 PM
No plans to fly here. I'm waiting for armed pilots.

RobW
September 17, 2004, 07:46 PM
Land of the free...

The insanity goes rampage. And all this because our PC sissies refuse to "profile" the kind of people nearly exclusively are the ones wreaking havoc. Instead, they search US Generals, blue haired 80 year old grandmas, pregnant American women, babies, and everyone that doesn't look Arab.

No flying for me unless this pathological behaviour called "political correctness" cease to exist.

niemand
September 17, 2004, 07:48 PM
When I to States arrived, this sort of thing "Would have been Unthinkable".

I do not "Submit", I do not "Surrender Dignity&Liberty". I will not an accomplice be in My Own "Incarceration".

I do not "Display Papers".

How so odd, "Vopos" and "Stasi" New employment in States have........

Wildalaska
September 17, 2004, 07:51 PM
I hate flying, only because I hate flying.

Never had a TSA problem...guess its becasue of my beer belly, tatoos, beard and long down to middle of back hair...dont look dangerous

Of course, I never bathe before goin on a plane...ya'll wanna poke in my shorts..go ahead :)


WildflyboyAlaska

mercedesrules
September 17, 2004, 07:53 PM
(Vermont Guy) No plans to fly here. I'm waiting for armed pilots.

No plans to fly here. I'm waiting for armed passengers.

Old Fuff
September 17, 2004, 07:55 PM
Nope .... I won't fly either unless there is no other option. I believe in security, but not what is going on now. What goes on at today's airports is a farce - or worse.

NC Shooter
September 17, 2004, 07:58 PM
I fly all the time. In my own plane and am armed as well.

Sometimes I have to do commercial though. Just hold my nose and go for it..

Cosmoline
September 17, 2004, 08:07 PM
I often think, what would George Washington do? Or Thomas Jefferson for that matter. That's pretty easy to guess. They would have refused, and probably would have considered the request an assault on their person. Andrew Jackson would have drawn blood for it, no question.

AZ Jeff
September 17, 2004, 08:28 PM
I will only fly if my employer mandates that I travel to place requiring such. Otherwise, I avoid it like the plague SOLELY because of the stupidity of the policies implemented by the TSA.

It's bad enough that the pilots are being giving the runaround about getting armed, as they are the one true hope for keeping air travel safe(r) from hijacking.

What's truly insulting beyond belief is the fact the the TSA airport screeners exist strictly to give the PERCEPTION of improved security, when in fact, all they are really doing is humiliating and intimidating those who are being misled by the perception.

Standing Wolf
September 17, 2004, 09:10 PM
No flights for me, thanks: if I wanted to be treated like a criminal, I'd commit crimes.

Shanghai McCoy
September 17, 2004, 09:17 PM
Before all this current insanity I worked overseas and had to fly often and far.Since then I only fly when it absolutly cannot be avoided."Airport Security" has become our newest oxymoron...

Edward429451
September 17, 2004, 09:17 PM
Me & the Wife don't fly. Been that way since before 9-11 and doesn't have anything to do with TSA par se but their antics sure do reinforce it for us.

It's more along the lines of 'don't trust anything more mechanical than a knife & fork'...If we ever break down, I'd rather be on the ground than in the air.

feedthehogs
September 17, 2004, 09:19 PM
After a couple of snafus with TSA, I bought a time share on a private jet to do my flying. Can even carry if where I'm going to recip's with Fla.
Had to fly in the early summer and the time share was booked and flew commercial and vowed NEVER EVER AGAIN.
I hope every airline goes into the ground and transportation grinds to a halt for supporting the molesting of American people all in the name of feeling safe.

A45acp1911
September 17, 2004, 09:21 PM
We don't fly, and I can't imagine that we ever will. At this point, I can't imagine *anything* that could get me to submit to the illusion-of-security measures required to board a plane. No job, no business opportunity, no personal want or need, no free trip to anywhere or everywhere in the world, nothing.

The last time I traveled by plane was 1999 (?), and I was incensed at the intrusiveness of the security measures at that time.

There are many periodicals we don't read, television programs and movies we don't view, events we don't attent, products we don't purchase, etc., based on principal. Flying is just one more think we won't miss.

Philip J. Hoffmann

one45auto
September 17, 2004, 10:15 PM
Well said, Cosmoline. I haven't flown for over fourteen years, and after hearing all of the post-9/11 horror stories I have no intentions to do so unless absolutely necessary. I drive everywhere I go, even on vacation. True, that fourteen hour trip to Florida was a bit long, but it was worth it not to be subjected to the minimum wage tyranny of the so-called "security" officers.

Jay Kominek
September 17, 2004, 10:17 PM
I've been getting more and more disgusted by airport security everytime I've flown. Maybe if I didn't live in Colorado and go through DIA with its notoriously slow security it wouldn't bother me so much. But as it stands, all my vacation plans for the next few years involve driving.
And all this because our PC sissies refuse to "profile" the kind of people nearly exclusively are the ones wreaking havoc.
Keep in mind that you don't have to fit any profile to be crazy. Optimally, you do both profiled and random searches. If all your searches are profiled, then it is a simple matter of getting out of the profile, or convincing someone who doesn't fit it to do your dirty work. (Kidnap a mother's child, tell her that the kid splats if she doesn't carry a bomb onto a plane successfully. That sort of thing.)

Not that the people you're referring to are shunning profiling for that reason. :mad:

Lone_Gunman
September 17, 2004, 10:22 PM
I fly a few times a year, but have never had any of the bad experiences described here, with the exception of the one time I flew while wearing a pair of shoes with metal in them. Had to take them off and go thru the metal detector.

CleverNickname
September 17, 2004, 10:32 PM
While I didn't have as bad an experience as Cosmoline, the last time I flew in 2002 left a bad taste in my mouth, to put it mildly. I haven't flown since then. Luckily my job doesn't require me to fly.

I have done several road trips through the western US on vacation since then where I normally would have flown. Even if something wonderful happened and passengers could carry, I still wouldn't fly nearly as much any more. You see and experience so much more via car instead of flying over it.

MikeK
September 17, 2004, 10:33 PM
I've carried a knife since I was 8 years old. I've flown once since 9/11 on business and felt naked without it. Never again. I used to actually enjoy the flying part if I wasn't crammed in a seat with a sumo wrestler on either side.

Old Dog
September 17, 2004, 11:19 PM
So what is the solution then? For those whose jobs force them to fly commercially or for whom travel via automobile is not workable ...

Frankly, I'd rather go through our airports in the USA than have to again subject myself to the torture of flying on some of the foreign-flag carriers I've experienced, and going through their airports ...

My problem with flying is the lack of space, uncomfortable seats, lack of legroom, crappy restrooms, the exceedingly bad air, the grudging service by "flight attendants", the wasted time sitting on the tarmac waiting for take-off (late) or flying circles around metropolitan airports waiting to land (late), the crappy meals on long flights ...

I fly so much now that I don't even notice the crappy service in the terminals; just get to the airports for my flights at least three hours early, keep copies of the TSA/airline regs on traveling w/firearms ...

I'm getting the idea that most of you either have quit flying commercially, or else simply feel that we should cancel all our airport security measures because it's too inconvenient for everyone.

schromf
September 17, 2004, 11:31 PM
I used to work overseas for years I flew I don't know how many millions of miles, but put it grandly it was 20 years of pole to pole, and way over twenty around the world flights. Before 9/11 I was sick and tired of flying, all I had to do is think about getting on a airplane and my body hurt. Try about 50 hrs airtime once and you will know what I mean.

So before 9/11 it sucked to fly, now it reminds me of one bad trip when I was strip searched in a low rent country. It has gone from a dislike it to dread it, I have gotten so bad I won't pack more than a few hours in advance, just don't want to think about it.

I still have to fly, but I drive when I can. But I HATE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! A trip to the dentist is more fun.

carp killer
September 17, 2004, 11:45 PM
"Land of the free...

The insanity goes rampage. And all this because our PC sissies refuse to "profile" the kind of people nearly exclusively are the ones wreaking havoc. Instead, they search US Generals, blue haired 80 year old grandmas, pregnant American women, babies, and everyone that doesn't look Arab.

No flying for me unless this pathological behaviour called "political correctness" cease to exist."



I flew a couple of months ago and saw TSA do just what you said. I think the TSA is afraid of passengers with , I'll say it, middle eastern profiles.

Political correctness:barf: :barf: :barf:

Old Dog
September 17, 2004, 11:50 PM
Are you guys serious? You think TSA targets just anybody out of political correctness?

How would you protect our commercial airliners from bad guys?

And who the hell decreed that ONLY persons of Middle-Eastern descent OR people who APPEAR Middle-Eastern would want to hijack an aircraft? Didn't anybody notice what happened in Russia recently? (Yes, I know Chechens are Muslim, but some of them look as Anglo as me).

Tamara
September 17, 2004, 11:52 PM
You couldn't get me on a commercial airliner at gunpoint these days. I refuse to pay hundreds of dollars for the privilege of being treated like cattle.

If I can't drive there, you won't see me.

Mikul
September 17, 2004, 11:56 PM
I haven't flown since the TSA was created and instituted it's ridiculous excuse for security measures. I won't have everything I own be searched by lazy, theiving government employees. The TSA answers to no one and acts like it.

It hurts me because my wife and I would like to go back to the place we had our honeymoon, and we'd like to see Ireland again, but we're sticking to places we can drive to.

US Airways and and United can go bankrupt and disappear from the face of the planet.

Mr Jody Hudson
September 18, 2004, 12:02 AM
For years I flew almost daily as a "Road Warrior" high end sales person and seminarist.

I grew up in an aviation family and we have several planes and one jet.

The TSA is a criminally disgusting pretense of visible security to cover up a great lemming test; of us allowing ourselves gradually into the trains that are going to the showers.

Soon there will truely be a two class system in America; in fact there is now - those who fly personal planes and those who don't.

I will not fly commercial again.

There is a new book out, a few days ago: "Flying Blind" which will cause you to join in the decision to not fly again commercially.

Those Road Warriors who still fly are armed to the teeth as a rule; many of them practice quick disconnects of seat belts and some even take classes in using the removeable seats and seat belts as shields and weapons. Many carry an extra credit card with sharpened edges or even a professionally laminated credit card made of titanium. Some carry pens and pencils of titanium or metal and some take lessons in using them as defensive implements. Sheeple are not allowed to carry plastic wire ties any more so some carry special dental floss that has about a 100 pound break strenth to use as bindings. Some carry special belts and learn to take them off quickly and use them. Some have a long sock and a plastic bottle of shampoo ready to put into the sock for use... there are many other expedient covert weapons. One fellow has practiced using extra long and extra long medical drinking straws and bamboo shishkabob skewers with a dab of cotton on one end as a blowgun... One pharmacist salesman claimed a couple of years ago on one of the Road Warrior forums that he had some long sewing needles, straws and a small bottle of Curare, the famed blowgun dart poison. And it goes on... Some are wearing police style bullet resistant vests or clothing, there are companies that cater to the Road Warriors that sell covert protective clothing that will stop a knife and help protect from bullets. MANY keep strong laser pointer pens in a pocket for eye-blinding terorists, and much more.

One Commercial Airline Pilot I heard speak on this issue; who can fly free anywhere and so can all his family - says that he will not fly commercial with his family and will not fly commercial himself unless he is the pilot. He read a galley copy of "Flying Blind" and said that not only is it truthful but that it is a bit understated if anything and leaves out many other dangers that are set up to allow the terrorists MORE access while terrorizing pilots, passengers and crew.

We need to REMOVE almost all of our politicians and almost all of our major media and all of our attorneys... or get them all nice agriculture jobs in the fields.

:cuss:

schromf
September 18, 2004, 12:14 AM
The whole thing disgusts me. First I don't like the fact that they need to see an ID to board a plane. It reminds me way too much of some not to friendly places I have traveled where a guy with a submachine gun says:

Papers..........


Second the whole arming of the pilots annoys the heck out of me. These guys are bus drivers in the sky. If they need to be armed so do bus drivers, and train engineers, and riverboat pilots. The aren't a select priviledged class that should be armed, to the exclusion of the general population.

On a recent trip through Denver it was an hour plus standing in line, to get through security. And then have some doughnut eating moron use the only two grey cells he's got to figure out if my belt buckle is a lethal weapon.

God I wish the train system in this county worked agian.

Yes I like driving, even the 24 hour drive home is better than 5-6 hours of airports and airlines, and the scenery better.

Bridger
September 18, 2004, 12:36 AM
I have a strong distaste for metal detectors already. Haven't had to fly since 9/11, I don't think I want to, and if any long distance travel comes up again, Amtrak or the car is getting a hard look.

Ewok
September 18, 2004, 01:10 AM
It would take more than Barney Fife to keep me from traveling. Do you refuse to buy a handgun because you have to show ID and fill out forms?

SUE ROVR
September 18, 2004, 02:07 AM
I fly low:

http://content2.us.porsche.com/prod/911/911_common.nsf/usaenglish/c_gallery_exterior?OpenDocument&sc=carrera.nsf

Anything 1000miles or less I can make in a day (12hours), and that is in the bimmer, when the porsche gets here I can probably make 1100.

:)

I actually like flying, in my uncle's mooney, airlines are ridiculous.

Can'thavenuthingood
September 18, 2004, 03:19 AM
I think the airlines have been subsidized long enough. They should be cutoff from the government's money trough. "We the people" have built an infrastructure for airline industry. Because a few companies cannot operate efficiently they come to Uncle Deep Pockets for welfare assistance. The problem may be taxes, unions, management, fraud, greed or bad decisions. Regardless, it should not become my problem. Even though I will not fly, I still pay through payroll deductions.

TSA is another example of a goverment fix that isn't. More layers. Spread the responsibility around thin enough and no one can be held accountable.

Pilots ought to have guns as it's a better last line of defense than an F-16 shooting down an aircraft full of people. I would rather see the flight crew bring home a plane of dead and injured instead of blowing it out of the sky.

If an armed pilot cannot regain control of the situation onboard, then shoot it down.

Buses and airplanes have entirely different clientele and stops for off/onloading passengers. The kids, punks and yahoo's aren't hanging around the terminal gates like they are at bus stops.

I walk, drive or motorcy--------------cle,

Vick

MP5
September 18, 2004, 08:28 AM
I haven't flown since 9/11 because of the invasive and humiliating security measures--friends and relatives have endured outrageous treatment--not any fear of terrorism. I'm an American, dammit, not a citizen of some police state.

I intend to use trains and cars in the future whenever possible. The TSA madness stems from the same sort of thought that got us the invasive, anti-Constitutional Patriot Act (thanks, George Bush). So many people are perfectly content to give up their freedoms as long as they can still drive their car to the mall, buy trinkets, and go home to watch Oprah.

stevelyn
September 18, 2004, 08:39 AM
:fire: I don't have a choice. There is no other way in and out of the Bush unless you are on a river system. Fortunately the commuters aren't yakked up like the larger airlines. I have no reason to go down to the Lower 48 so I won't be getting on a flight anytime soon.

spartacus2002
September 18, 2004, 08:58 AM
Good post, Cosmoline. I detest flying because of the TSA. I once wrote the 3 airlines I have frequent flyer plans with, telling them to raise hell with Congress on behalf of their customers against the TSA. 2 ignored me, the 3d said "thanks for your comments, we've passed your letter to the TSA":fire:

I flew on 9/11/02. I think I was one of 10 passengers in the entire airport. I have a steel plate and 11 pins in my ankle. Security was high, which I could understand, and the goons made me take my shoe and sock off and pull up my pants leg to inspect why my ankle kept setting the wand off-- which I could understand.

THEN, even seeing the large surgical scar, they kept running the wand up and down my bare naked ankle, debating with each other whether to let me on the plane. :banghead: After I offered to stick my ****ing leg in the Xray machine, they begrudgingly let me on the plane.

No flights for me, thanks: if I wanted to be treated like a criminal, I'd commit crimes.

Hear Hear!!

Mixlesplick
September 18, 2004, 09:02 AM
I won't fly as long as the TSA is harassing passengers. My parents would buy a ticket for me to visit them down south during the winter but I have always turned it down. If I ever take some vacation days I will drive down there.

Old Dog
September 18, 2004, 11:08 AM
I'm amazed at some of the attitudes here. Sure, flying commercially sucks. Yes, the lines are bad, service is not friendly, but to postulate that ALL TSA employees are "lazy, thieving government employees" who "harass and humiliate" passengers at will is a little extreme. I fly A LOT. In and out of this country. By far, our security measures are less painful than most (try flying in/out of some countries such as Greece, Israel, Saudi Arabia for example). I fly with firearms, have had some irritating moments, but the most humiliation I've undergone -- or witnessed -- is having to take off shoes and be wanded. Yes, I've heard the horror stories. But those are a small percentage of people who fly -- ever take a look at how many passengers go through even a medium sized airport per day? The volume is still huge. Everyone by now who flies should know that if they try to board with any item that looks as though it could be used as a weapon, the situation will escalate beyond routine.

I detest flying, but only because it's uncomfortable, the cabin air quality usually makes me ill, the service onboard by the stew ... ah, flight attendants is routinely surly, one's space is cramped, there's no legroom, the food sucks, the bathrooms are ridiculous and yes, one's treated like cattle. But for most of us who have to travel, particularly overseas, there's often no alternative.

How many of you write letters to the airlines, airport managers, your congressman, seek out TSA supervisors and make written complaints, write or call your local media to get publicity about bad experiences or in general do anything beyond bitching on internet forums about how bad big bad TSA is just another example of government run amok?

Jay Kominek
September 18, 2004, 11:58 AM
It would take more than Barney Fife to keep me from traveling. Do you refuse to buy a handgun because you have to show ID and fill out forms?
Not sure where you're buying guns, but I havn't ever had it take more than 15 minutes, and I was free to wander around the store and drool while the sales person was on hold.

I've stood in line at DIA for 2 hours, herded like cattle, and they sure don't let you look at pretty guns the whole time. :(

Ewok
September 18, 2004, 12:30 PM
By far, our security measures are less painful than most (try flying in/out of some countries such as Greece, Israel, Saudi Arabia for example).

I've flown to Israel since 9/11 and it wasn't that bad. Of course, domestically, the airlines can't take the time that El Al takes to interview each passenger.

BeLikeTrey
September 18, 2004, 12:42 PM
To anyone. I HATE public transportation. If I am flying, I'll get a license and do it myself. Also, as I am untrusting with my personal safety, I also won't go anywhere that disarms me unless I have to.

dustind
September 18, 2004, 02:39 PM
Old Dog: You seem to have a high tolerance for abuse. Yes I have, and will continue to write my congress persons, and call them before they make any big descisions.

Wildalaska: You do not look dangerous.

Everyone: My step mom worked for TSA after being layed off as a machinist, and she has nothing good to say about the way it is run, or her fellow employees. She would get there at about 1:00 AM IIRC and sit there until morning on the clock waiting to find out if she was going to have to work the second part of her shift. Many of her fellow employees could literally not hold down a job at a fast food restaraunt. They also fit about every mall ninja stereo type.

I used to love to fly commercial, now I am planning on building my own airplane after I buy a house. Many of you guys on THR should consider buying an used airplane or building your own. There is still a lot of freedom in flying your own airplane. Small local airports are everywhere and give you the white glove treatment, as opposed to the latex glove treatment you get at major airports.

http://www.homebuiltairplanes.com/forums/

Old Dog
September 18, 2004, 02:50 PM
DustinD, yeah, I guess I do ... comes after spending too many years of my life in some areas around a certain gulf; I appreciate living in this country. That said, I do not enjoy the experience of flying commercial these days at all, and when I leave my present job, I will do everything in my power to never have to fly again (unless it's in my own or a friend's aircraft).

Anyway, I appreciate the efforts of all who work to try and improve the current situation (and by NO means am I trying to defend TSA; however, I don't believe TSA is the real problem, only the symptom). The point I was trying to make is that there seem to be too many people who just sit around and bitch about how bad things are, but expend no effort beyond keystrokes on their computer to work for change.

dog3
September 18, 2004, 03:29 PM
I'm basically okay with it.

That's OK with it as long as EVER SINGLE GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL must be subjected to EXACTLY the same "random, routine" searches the TSA does, including the TSA.

Any TSA official, upon arriving at the airport, should have to take off their shoes, belt, and all that and wait while everyone else walks by and check's 'em out.

Anytime Dubbya flies, he should also have to go through what we go through.

How long exactly do you think this would all last?

You forget, Andew Jackson was part of the elite, he would never have had to be subjected
to the laws the rest of us are required to live by, any more then, than now.

TallPine
September 18, 2004, 03:34 PM
How Many Refuse to Fly?
Me.

Joey2
September 19, 2004, 07:53 AM
I have not flown since 9/11 and have no plans to in the future. Living in Hawaii I can either fly or swim.

I can not swim 2500 miles to the Californina coast, maybe when I was younger, so I will stay where I am.

I refuse to fly because I refuse to be treated as a terrorist.

Smoke
September 19, 2004, 08:17 AM
It's a pain in the butt, however, I refuse to let inept government agencies or bad service prevent me from going wherever i want too.

Give me cheaper alternative that will get me there as fast, and I'm in.

Smoke

RealGun
September 19, 2004, 09:32 AM
I don't know about "refuse", but I have certainly been avoiding it for a number of reasons.

. On 9/11 I was just east of Kansas City on an 1100 mile drive to Kansas. My alternative would have been to fly out of Dulles that morning at about the same time as when the Dulles flight hit the Pentagon. Not sure if it would have been the same flight but it would have been really close. A neighbor a few doors down was killed at the Pentagon. I since moved to SC.

' On my only flight since, I had to mail home a miniature Victorinox pocket knife for almost the same cost as a new one...either that or have it confiscated. I have since read about confiscation of fingernail clippers...typical bureaucratic absurdity. I think I will wait until sanity is restored.

. TSA is stonewalling arming of pilots and deployment of sky marshals. In effect, I am boycotting because of that.

. I avoid "gun free" zones and situations

. Travelling between States is like travelling between countries because of variations in gun control laws. It's bad enough in a car.

. I am not sure I trust airport security. I don't enjoy the helpless feeling involved in flying. It requires too much trust that may not be warranted.

. All this "security" has more to do with protecting the airline industry and spin control than it does with actual passenger safety. If passenger safety was a real issue, then armed pilots and sky marshals would have been a slam dunk. Gun control mentality and insurance companies (redundant, but tort liability/reform is supposedly the issue) are what are standing in the way.

Kharn
September 19, 2004, 11:09 AM
I dont like doing it, but my boss points towards the plane and I say "Yes, sir!" as required.

Kharn

Lennyjoe
September 19, 2004, 11:32 AM
I fly all the time and wont think twice about flying again.

Doesnt mean I dont agree with TSA's operations though. Just means that I have to get from point A to point B and the airplane is the easiest way to get there.

Also, my brother works for Continental which means round trip tickets to anywhere in the US is $100 for me:D

Ian
September 19, 2004, 12:48 PM
I used to fly a fair amount, but stopped about 2 years ago (the sole exception since being an international trip that I could only make by air).

Now, I either drive or don't go.

YankeeRebel
September 19, 2004, 01:22 PM
Sometime last week I was listening to a radio show and the MC told about an 83 year old grandmother that had had enough of the TSA bovine meadow muffins. Whatever he did the TSA guy made her mad enought that she ran him over with her wheel chair and kept going back & forth over him. He finnaly whimped that he was sorry and would not do it again. Another TSA guy came up behind grandma and attempted to hold her. She grabbed him by his hair and let him have it. Don't ask as I don't know how she kept them, but she stabed one of the TSA in the butt with knitting needles. She screamed that here you are going after an 83 year old woman when yoiu let middle eastern looking men go through with a flick of the hand. The other passengers were clapping and urging her on. The police took her to the staiton and then let her go ROR. A crowd had gethered outside of the police station and said that they would go for her bail. It also seems that 20 or so lawyers have said they will take her case pro bono. Hope this is not an urban ledgen as I really like it as it showed that the people are sick & tired of what the TSA is doing.

Ewok
September 19, 2004, 03:31 PM
It's fiction. Grandma Beats Up Airport Security Guards: a Traveler's Daydream. (http://www.lewrockwell.com/wallace/wallace42.html)

Firethorn
September 19, 2004, 05:47 PM
Maybe we should charter our own airline, Ala "Soul Plane"


-10% discount for bringing your piece. Checking of handguns is forbidden, you can only have them in the cabin with you, unless you already have two. Rifles and shotguns - You're briefed no shooting them on the plane. :D
-Baggage check: Retired military/police explosives dog.
-Loading. Well, you'll be forced to do it the old fashioned way, up the moving staircase. We aren't stepping into any terminal. Handicapped? Well, we'll figure something out.
-Pilots: Former Marine Pilots prefered. Bonus pay if they qualify marksman with their weapons. Oh, yeah, and they have the 'instant win' button. :evil:
-Stewardesses: Open carry.
- Lead time: 15-30 minutes? None of this hours stuff.
- Safety. Well, there'll be so many guns the terrorists wouldn't know what to do. Safety briefing spiced up with tips for how to best shoot any terrorists who try to hijack the plane.

Nazirite
September 19, 2004, 06:31 PM
I flew out to Kansas City last Monday and back to Columbus this past Friday. Going through security isn’t too bad. I always take my shoes off, empty my pockets ( except the billfold ), and walk through the metal detector. Haven’t been stopped yet.
Security doesn’t bother me, it’s the part when I’m five miles above the earth that gets my attention. :what:

Bainx
September 20, 2004, 08:49 AM
Prior to 9-11, it took 12 hours for me and wife to fly from Miami to Knoxville, TN. Heck we could have almost driven it in 12 hours. A flood of excuses from the airline people.....
When I was cussing like a sailor back at the airport in Knoxville, the two airline workers at the counter asked if I wanted to hear the REAL reason for all the delays these days. They said that our politicians and FAA have spent big bucks on airport appearance improvements and not on a radical upgrade of air traffic control hardware/software. They said "you can only get so much water thru a straw". Only so much air traffic can be handled and at a certain rate given the old, antiquated traffic control system.
Kind of like the space shuttle operating on 1970s computer technology.

After 9-11, they have painted a facade of security for the sheeple to see.
The real problems have not been addressed. Subcontractors still enter planes without searches in order to stock/food/drink and provide cleaning services. Bush and TSA have fought arming the pilots with their every fiber, why is that?

No flying for me, thanks.

halvey
September 20, 2004, 10:46 AM
Flew once to Florida back in '89. I'll try never to fly again. Not that it went badly, but I figure if my ancestors intended for me to go someplace else, they'd have stettled. :)

Cool Hand Luke 22:36
September 20, 2004, 11:44 AM
I'll get back on a plane just as soon as Congress passes national "Vermont style" permitless concealed carry that allows me to arm myself for self defense on a commercial flight.

RealGun
September 20, 2004, 01:40 PM
I'll get back on a plane just as soon as Congress passes national "Vermont style" permitless concealed carry that allows me to arm myself for self defense on a commercial flight.

I hope that's a long wait. Carry laws are an infringement on the RKBA, no matter how permissive. If you allow them a controlling opinion, a later Congress could reverse it, all the while ignoring the Constitution. It's a long story, but please forget that idea. The recent LEO interstate carry law is unconstitutional for a couple reasons. "Hey, what about me?" is a natural reaction, but be careful what you buy into.

The fact that the 2nd Amendment has not been applied (by the SCOTUS) to all States via the 14th Amendment, after all this time, is outrageous, and we need to always remember that. Don't go for any workarounds. That concept will be in clear view as States start to institute their own AWB laws. If it ain't right for the Feds, it ain't right for the States either.

What if Congress decided to rule against concealed carry? Would you be enthusiastic about their supposed jurisdiction then? On what basis would you accept them doing that? Let's not, in effect, be hypocritical.

Now, we are in agreement about being able to board a plane armed, if we so choose, as long as we grant some control of potential fuselage penetration and know what we will do to secure the weapon during a nap. I guess I could see shoulder holsters or secured fanny packs becoming very popular. Think about it.

Cosmoline
September 20, 2004, 02:05 PM
Wow. A lot more people than I expected have stopped flying. No wonder large portions of the airline industry are heading for Chapter 7.

Ironically, I think under the current set of standards the best way to avoid being searched is to dress up in robes and mutter about Allah and infidels. But if we're ever under terriorist assault by grandmas and CMH winners, TSA has us covered.

RealGun
September 20, 2004, 03:03 PM
Bush and TSA have fought arming the pilots with their every fiber, why is that?

On the contrary. TSA has been defiant of a bill passed by Congress and signed by the President. It was a post 9/11 security initiative. I don't know this to be a Bush bashing topic. If you believe otherwise, do you have some references?

scbair
September 20, 2004, 03:50 PM
From 1993 through most of 2001, I averaged flying about one trip every 2 months (give or take). I flew to TX in ealry October 2001. Since then, I've taken (as best I can recall) three trips by commercial airline. I've studiously avoided all unnecessary air travel. I've twice driven 500-600 miles (one way) rather than submit to the airport regimen. I'va also declined one very nice, company-paid trip to a primo resort area, because the reward of the 3-day retreat wasn't equal to the price of the airport pain.

I hate the reminder that the terrorists won on September 11. The unbearable airport hassles remind me of how much freedom we're willing to sacrifice for some temporary (and imaginary) security.

Odd, I keep hearing how my local airport is having increased passenger activity, but just heard that US Airways has filed for bankruptcy protection.

I say, let the airlines (and the airports and the TSA) go under; teleconferencing and videoconferencing are less fatiguing, faster and more convenient.

RealGun
September 20, 2004, 03:53 PM
S.2268 Armed Pilots Shall-Issue Law (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/D?d108:193:./temp/~bddjMA::)

This bill to fix the TSA nonsense has been in the Commerce, Science, and Transportation Senate Committee since April 1, 2004. Note that the timing would have been questionable so close after the gun law voting debacle a few weeks earlier. But it can't be too important if it is just dormant in committee.

rock jock
September 20, 2004, 04:12 PM
Funny. I have flown several times since 9/11 and while I have been pulled to the side and had my shoes removed and my wife had her carry-on inspected, the searches took only a few minutes and the TSA screeners were pretty professional about it. Doesn't mean I like it, but I recognize it as a necessary evil. Also, none of my fiends who fly on a regular (weekly) basis has ever had the horror stories that seem to be concensus here. Must be a pretty select group to have been manhandled that way. I am willing to accept a few inconveniences for the many benefits that air travel offers. Simply put, my time is too valuable to waste several days on the road that can be better spent on limited vacation or business.

Battlespace
September 20, 2004, 04:49 PM
I flew three weeks ago after several years of no flying. Now I know why. the real kicker of the inspection was when the snaps on my Levi 501's set off the hand held detector and the TSA goon had me unbutton them so he could look inside my fly. I guess he gets his jollies that way. Anyway the flight was less than 275 miles and with waiting and taking a second flight, it took be almost 8 hours! I can drive it in 4 1/2! From now on that is the way to go.

Cosmoline
September 20, 2004, 06:46 PM
It all depends on your mindset, I guess. I don't mind going through an intense inspection and questioning when entering a foreign nation. It's their turf, and my rights are strictly limited. But I knew they would be going in. I made NO SUCH AGREEMENT for interstate travel. Indeed I feel common carriers should be freely available to all paying fares. There should be no implied waiver of fundamental rights.

So I take it very personally when I'm being searched before an interstate flight without due process, without reasonable suspicion, and without probable cause.

Cosmoline
September 20, 2004, 06:53 PM
PS: You know, if some gov'ment agent had tried to make George Washington expose his fly (or the 18th century equivalent) for inspection, George would have horse whipped the scoundrel and hauled him to the nearest jail.

Times have changed, and not all for the better.

cropcirclewalker
September 20, 2004, 11:56 PM
Jees, I thought I was the only one that hopes the airlines go broke. I was a Nasal Elevator back in the 60's. Flew off a carrier thousands of hours. Never, ever, took off without a firearm. Even if it was to go to Norfolk to get the CNO and bring him back to the ship.

When they let me take my shootin' iron aboard I guess I will start flying again.

My wife will still fly. I went to pick her up in St. Looie once. I showed up more than an hour early because I expected to get hassled for having a firearm in my vehicle. They forgot to hassle me so I stood at the security screening area and waited for her to come.

Used to be in the olden days you could meet your party at the gate. Now you gotta wait at the security screening area.

Anyway, I stood there and watched for more than an hour. The security screeners seemed to mostly select the babes for extra security. I know some old dogs will probably accuse me of anecdotalism but it sure seemed to me like the screener would select a babe, look through her stuff, feel up her luggage, look her over and when he saw another babe coming through the detector he would release the first and select the next babe and do the same thing.

The guys mostly went through. The babes got selected for extra perusal.

Anyway, hopefully some day, there will be nobody on the planes but .gov workers. Then TSA can screen the heck out of them.

RealGun
September 21, 2004, 05:42 AM
This bill to fix the TSA nonsense has been in the Commerce, Science, and Transportation Senate Committee since April 1, 2004. Note that the timing would have been questionable so close after the gun law voting debacle a few weeks earlier. But it can't be too important if it is just dormant in committee.

Re S.2268 "Armed Pilots Shall-Issue Law"

Senate Committee on Commerce, Science & Transportation
John McCain, Chairman
Ernest Hollings, Ranking Member

Aviation Subcommittee:

Chairman - Trent Lott
Ranking Member - John D. Rockefeller

Subcommittee Members:

Trent Lott, MS, Chairman
Ted Stevens, AK
Conrad Burns, MT
Kay Bailey Hutchison, TX
Olympia J. Snowe, ME
Sam Brownback, KS
Gordon Smith, OR
Peter G. Fitzgerald, IL
John Ensign, NV
George Allen, VA
John Sununu, NH
Ernest Hollings, SC
John D. Rockefeller, WV, Ranking
Daniel K. Inouye, HI
John Breaux, LA
Byron Dorgan, ND
Ron Wyden, OR
Bill Nelson, FL
Barbara Boxer, CA
Maria Cantwell, WA
Frank Lautenberg, NJ

I haven't analyzed the make up of the committee relative to the issue of arming pilots, but I do understand that Hollings and Breaux are retiring. I doubt if Hollings even voted for the original bill, let alone being willing to strengthen it by brushing aside any TSA regulatory discretion.

It seems certain at this point that the issue will not come up until the next Congress and a new Committee membership.

4570Rick
September 21, 2004, 05:58 AM
In 1955 on a flight from Tucson to Chicago, the pilot walked down the isle and picked me to go to the cockpit of that DC-6 for the entire flight. Been in love with flying ever since. :p

I will not fly anymore. Can you guess why?

Cool Hand Luke 22:36
September 21, 2004, 06:20 AM
I hope that's a long wait. Carry laws are an infringement on the RKBA, no matter how permissive. If you allow them a controlling opinion, a later Congress could reverse it, all the while ignoring the Constitution. It's a long story, but please forget that idea. The recent LEO interstate carry law is unconstitutional for a couple reasons. "Hey, what about me?" is a natural reaction, but be careful what you buy into.


My understanding of Vermont's permitless concealed carry, and I have never done any checking on this so I may be wrong, is that the Vermont legislature rescinded whatever statute was in effect that required a permit or passed legislation mandating that no permit is required, I am not sure which is the case.

When I said Congress could "pass" Nationwide Vermont style permitless concealed carry, I meant that it could pass legislation mandating that no permit should be required. I'm not sure if that rises to the level of Congress appropriating an impermissable degree of authority to regulate a fundamental right.

You are of course absolutely right about the government having no authority to require any type of license or permit in order to exercise the RKBA.

As for partial or total incorporation under the 14th, take your pick as to who's theory you want to accept on that score.

RealGun
September 21, 2004, 06:49 AM
As for partial or total incorporation under the 14th, take your pick as to who's theory you want to accept on that score.

Any legal reality that prevents it would be laws, judges, and lawyers making a mockery of the process. At some point you start cleaning house.

standingbear
September 21, 2004, 07:57 AM
I wont fly either.The last time I was on a plane,it was valuejet outta florida.when it took off from florida,we were sitting by the engines and I pointed out that the engine cover was flapping all over the place and the thing was shaking.The very next week..it crashed.
as if that wasnt enough,nowdays, Dont like the idea of maybe being forced to disrobe or remove my shoes to go someplace by anybody.dont like people with attitude or smart ellics...I have a bad habit of dishing attitude back when its thrown in my face,no matter who it is.

molonlabe
September 21, 2004, 08:30 AM
This is from a article from CCW Magazine interviewing Carma Jackson Executive Director of Armed and Female. This has been my sentiments completely since 911 and will remain so.

Carma: For the past 16 years, I’ve been a flight attendant for a major airline. And since 9/11, I have only worked a few days. We are sitting ducks in an airplane with absolutely no means of defense. Our safety is in the hands of the incompetent TSA and that’s just not good enough for me. Not to mention, we get to fly with the knowledge that if a terrorist is discovered on a aircraft, our government will respond by shooting the plane down with a missile. Now if that’s supposed to reassure me, why don’t I feel better. I plan on retiring this summer. If all the pilots were armed then I might consider flying a few more years, as it is now I have no desire to fly our “unfriendly” skies.

Here is the link.
http://www.armedfemalesofamerica.com/afanews/Carma%20-%20Aug%20041.pdf

Bainx
September 21, 2004, 08:52 AM
I don't know this to be a Bush bashing topic. If you believe otherwise, do you have some references?

Not bashing Bush. Just wondering why there are virtually NO armed pilots.
My brother in law is a Delta pilot and to get to carry a gun, they must:
1. Take special training. This requires taking days off of work.
2. Take a psychological exam/evaluation. Yes, hard to belive but its true. The pilot already has clearance to fly a huge plane but, for some reason, can not be trusted with a gun.
3. Use only the approved by the Gubmit gun. One size fits all.
4. Follow unbelievable rules about transporting, storing the gun.
Once again, the buearocrats have taken something simple and straigtforward and turned it into an absolute nightmare.

He tells me that the whole deal is SO SCREWED UP that the Pilot's Union is now in the process of yelling 'foul' to the Gubmit and starting all over again with the total process of arming pilots. They want something more on the lines of simple CCW.
Lord, if a pilot can get a CCW and carry in his car, in a shopping mall, in a boat, why can't he simply CCW on the plane?

RealGun
September 21, 2004, 11:31 AM
They want something more on the lines of simple CCW.

That's pretty much how S2268 reads. An interesting twist though that may not survive committee is that a pilot gets to carry in any State. Although given a badge (yeah, really), they are not Federal officers, so that would be a line that has not been crossed before. If their license is good because of interstate commerce jurisdiction, then so is mine, when you plug in full faith and credit to a State issued license.

The gun grabbers are getting tied up in their shorts with all their restrictions and bogus jurisdictions. It is hard to "allow" something when there is already a maze for disallowing the same thing. For example they or the States have said that interstate truck drivers may not carry weapons, disarming the Teamsters, but now they are insisting that pilots carry weapons. Pilots are in the Teamsters. It's a delicate web we weave.

Sindawe
September 21, 2004, 12:20 PM
The sky will be filled with nothing birds, and the airframes will oxidize to dust before I'll fly commercial again. Put up with groping, poking about in my luggage, ask me to disrobe in public? No frelling way. :fire:

Sleeping Dog
September 21, 2004, 01:03 PM
When I fly, I just thank God that the British Muslim guy got caught for putting the explosives in his shoe. He could have got caught carrying rectally, and that would make the TSA inspection line very invasive indeed. :)


I just flew a couple of times last week, and the TSA folks were all pretty respectful and polite. I don't know if they are changing or if I just happened along at the right time. Even the folks that had their bags hand-inspected were taken aside and their stuff was not waved around.

Regards.

roo_ster
September 21, 2004, 01:44 PM
I fly only if work requires it, nowadays.

For vacations, me & mine drive.

My 5' 0" wife was 7-8 months pregnant and was selected for special treatment by TSA.

My dad transported a 20ga semi-auto shotgun throught baggage & the TSA goons managed to steal it.

auschip
September 21, 2004, 11:02 PM
You guys must have the absolute worst luck. I have flown probably 40 times in the past 2 years and was only searched once. The time I was searched I bought a one way ticket a couple hours before my flight, and that caused me to be flagged (you know it because of the checker board pattern on your tickets). Maybe I just got lucky?

artherd
September 22, 2004, 01:50 AM
<shrug> I pack dildos and other stuff in my luggage, just to get their faces red.

The principle of the whole thing does bother me, that is why I need my own damn plane.

BeLikeTrey
September 22, 2004, 10:21 AM
That really gave me a smile this morning. My coworkers think I'm crazy now thanks! I'm over here laughing in my cube due to the mental picture that your suitcase gives me. :D

BenW
September 22, 2004, 10:55 AM
In 1955 on a flight from Tucson to Chicago, the pilot walked down the isle and picked me to go to the cockpit of that DC-6 for the entire flight. Been in love with flying ever since.

I will not fly anymore. Can you guess why?
Because the pilot asked if you like gladiator movies? :p

IndianaDean
September 22, 2004, 11:16 AM
No plans to fly here. I'm waiting for armed passengers.


__________________
Newsflash! I am a libertarian anarchist.

I'm with mercedesrules 100%, who also quotes the all time greatest rock band in history and my lifelong favorites!

Kamicosmos
September 22, 2004, 04:27 PM
I have flown more since 9-11 than I had before, (flying in private planes excluded). Mostly business though.

Yes, I hate the cattle feel, and the privacy violations. I've had to go through being searched multiple times on one flight, KC-Chicago-London all on the way to Edinburgh. I mean, how many times to I need to be searched over and over, while enroute?? London wasn't bad, nice folks. Chicago...damn. Why not just knock us out on the plane with that russian sleeping gas and have your way with us...be nicer and more effiecient.
This summer to New York, nothing too invasive, but a nice weekend trip to and back with one small bag, must not have set off the bells.

Will I stop flying? No, of course not. Do I look forward to it? Outside of the excitement of the trip, nope. I dread it. I show up early, and take off my shoes and belt. Leave my spare change and leatherman in the car. Only take my car and house key so that's usually not a problem, etc.
I have made the commitment to not fly with firearms though (as in going to a comp shoot or something), but it hasn't come up.

Does piss me off to see an obvious holiday or business traveler getting the once over while a turban wearing shifty-eyed guy gets the red carpet. That's all I'll say on that, this is the High Road, after all.

But, the airlines are feeling it. They're charging for drinks and not offering as many flights. They are giving lots of miles though, and the service level does seem a bit more Yes Sir than it used to be. Course, that might be cause I have racked up a pretty impressive amount of miles over the past few years though... :)

sawhitt
September 22, 2004, 05:22 PM
Flew a charter in July. Still got the strip treatment. My wife got it on the way back. I'm driving hereafter.

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