History Channel - Snipers


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12.7x99mm
February 22, 2003, 02:13 AM
I just got done watching this. I would like to hear some feed back from anyone else that saw the section on Ruby Ridge and Waco.

I have met Randy Weaver and he was talking about something completely different.

How do you feel about how they portrayed these two sections of the show?

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Mike Irwin
February 22, 2003, 02:22 AM
I thought the History Channel and the producers of the show gave a complete and total freebie felatio job to FBI.

I also thought it was interesting that they glossed over the fact that Weaver's son Sammy was killed. If I'm not mistaken, they kept referring to Sammy as Weaver's DAUGHTER.

It also never mentioned that Larry Potts changed the rules of engagement for the situation with virtually no oversight or prior consultation.

It also made every effort to convict Weaver and Harris without mentioning that they were later acquitted.

It also didn't mention that partially because of the actions of these vaunted, "highly trained" snipers that I believe the government had to pay Weaver over $3 million in damages.

This piece of trash should have been burned in the editing offices.

12.7x99mm
February 22, 2003, 02:29 AM
"This piece of trash should have been burned in the editing offices."

You got that right. I always enjoyed that channel until I saw this. I was shocked.

Thumper
February 22, 2003, 05:43 AM
Unusual for THC. Doesn't Cooper's daughter work there in some capacity now?

UnknownSailor
February 22, 2003, 05:57 AM
Yea, this show took the government's word as to what happened, both at Ruby Ridge and at Waco.
As if that infrared WACO tape made from overhead, showing that guy dropping out the back of an APC, and then opening fire, doesn't exist. The FBI sure a I'm sitting here, fired rounds as the tanks were "inserting" CS gas into the compound.
I found it interesting, as they went on to describe the Secret Service counter-sniper detail, that the only rifles they showed the SS agents using were .308 class rifles. I'm sure that something heavier is in the inventory.

Jack19
February 22, 2003, 07:05 AM
12.7, I watched the LE Snipers show on THC last night. I thought the versions of Ruby Ridge and Waco as portrayed by the ex-agent were, at best, highly fictionalized. He, and probably the FBI, cleaned up their version and The History Channel didn't correct them.

I realize this was a show on "Snipers" but if this is the best THC can do, they should rename themselves 'The Revisionist History Channel.'

S_O_Laban
February 22, 2003, 08:04 AM
I started to watch last night too, bailed as soon as I heard about the Waco ect. stuff. I don't care for the extra agravation:mad:

waynzwld
February 22, 2003, 08:50 AM
Same here. As soon as they started on that segment, I turned it off. What a bunch of "1984" revisionist history!!!

seeker_two
February 22, 2003, 02:23 PM
Horiuchi & the other FBI shooters at Ruby Ridge & the Branch Davidian compound (in Elk, not Waco) were NOT snipers. Snipers are guys like Carlos Hathcock & the Canadians in Afghanistan. Whoriuchi & the FBI shooters were MURDERERS...:cuss:

So far, this is THC's only black mark on them. I hope it doesn't increase...:scrutiny:

Gewehr98
February 22, 2003, 11:42 PM
went so far as to say that if he had the same shot opportunity as Lon "I shot a mom armed with a baby" Horiuchi, he would have taken it. Wonderful.

What ever did become of Larry Potts after all that, anyway?

DeltaElite
February 22, 2003, 11:58 PM
It made me sick.
Obeying that "free fire" command on Ruby Ridge shows how far from reality that the FBI folks are sometimes.
Just makes me sick.

cheygriz
February 23, 2003, 12:03 AM
The History Channel did a five part series on snipers. The first four installments were quite well done. A bit of a shame that the entire series had to be ruined by their pandering to government murderers. And let's not mince words, the Ruby Ridge "sniping" was bloody well murder.

Mad Man
February 23, 2003, 09:31 AM
All four episodes will be aired again today.

http://www.historychannel.com/ontv/

http://www.historychannel.com/perl/tv/tvlistings.pl?channel=hist&get=today&tz=EST&time=0

Listings for Sunday , February 23
Please note: Programming schedules are subject to change.

You are viewing Eastern/Pacific listings. You may also view Mountain (http://www.historychannel.com/perl/tv/tvlistings.pl?channel=hist&tz=MST&get=today)or Central (http://www.historychannel.com/perl/tv/tvlistings.pl?channel=hist&tz=CST&get=today)time.


3:00PM - 4:00PM Snipers
One Shot--One Kill

Statistics prove it's damned hard to kill an enemy soldier on the battlefield. That's why the U.S. Marine Corps urges its best marksmen to become snipers--human machines, inhuman patience and precision. From distances up to 3 miles, tomorrow's Marines train to neutralize enemies with one shot from their rifles--a shot that can mean the difference between peaceful surrender and bloody assault. We journey from Vietnam to Africa and Eastern Europe to observe these snipers watching...waiting...firing. TV PG

4:00PM - 5:00PM Snipers
World's Deadliest Snipers

Among the world's best, the British Royal Marines build on their noble traditions and the lessons of history to hone the skills of snipers and place them in a proud global lineage. The daring British Commandos, perfecting their use of camouflage and stalking, cleared the hedgerows at Normandy. The Russian Red Army snipers, known for patience and stealth, helped to break the siege of Stalingrad. We also look at a little-known force--the Red Army's deadly women snipers, who fought alongside the men. TV PG

5:00PM - 6:00PM Snipers
Stalk and Kill

Meet the ultimate hunters in a deadly game where the quarry shoots back--U.S. Army snipers. Experts of stealth and stalking, they can kill with a single shot from nearly a mile, or creep within yards of an enemy target remaining virtually invisible. Starting with American snipers in the Revolutionary War and ending with 21st century snipers and the latest technology at the U.S. Army Sniper School, we review the history of these marksmen who train to become the "most hated men on the battlefield." TV PG

6:00PM - 7:00PM Snipers
Law Enforcement Snipers

Travel to Los Angeles, San Jose, and Albuquerque as snipers train with special enforcement units that work to subdue the deadliest and most cunning criminals. In Fairfax, Virginia, we stare over the shoulders of Secret Service snipers, who operate as the eyes and ears of the most important U.S. security detail. With precision shooting and sophisticated reconnaissance abilities, a well-placed law enforcement sniper can make the difference between a routine arrest and an impromptu massacre. TV PG

Fed168
February 23, 2003, 11:20 AM
If I am not mistaken Larry Potts got promoted. Go figure. The FBI agent interviewed wrote a book on his experiences, but was not too convincing in the show.

Waitone
February 23, 2003, 12:05 PM
For a minute there I thought there were two Ruby Ridge events. Thanks for clearing up my confusion.

beckrodgers
February 23, 2003, 12:40 PM
I suppose you all know CBS owns the history channel, so what can we expect? When I finally got it ,all cable hook ups are gone.Imean think how much money and time we are giving these socialist? Its hard doing w/out too,We were all hooked. But at 30to 45$ amonth , it now goes to ammo & accs . All that money from all over the country. Even aol time warner,trying to figure a way out of it.Got to be in the billions. Thanks

Dannyboy
February 23, 2003, 09:03 PM
So, I guess that Koresh and Weaver were just poor, misunderstood victims? I guess there's no possibility that Weaver's wife was an accident? I guess the FBI deliberately torched the Branch Davidian house, as well, right? I mean, Koresh would never have thought of killing "his own people", right?

DMK
February 23, 2003, 09:15 PM
Did anybody read the book "Cold Zero" by Chris Whitcolm? It really is a good book if you try and put your predjudices aside until after you've read the whole thing with an open mind.

BTW: It was mentioned in the show that the FBI agent in charge changed the rules of engagement without orders, although it was only in passing. I was looking for it.

I thought it was interesting how Chris Whitcolm clearly mentioned both in the show interview and a few times in his book that he thought the ROE change was wrong. IIRC, he said in the show that it wasn't the type of order that should be given in America. Yet he also mentioned in the interview that the only reason he wasn't the shooter was he didn't have the opportunity.

It was clear in his book that the snipers had little respect and confidence in their superiors on scene. They certainly felt that it was a cluster botch. Yet they still followed bad orders.

I've tried to see it from their point of view. I think any cop or foot soldier would admit that they don't frequently get to know the whole picture outside their little corner of such situations. I wonder what I would have done behind that rifle.

Hkmp5sd
February 23, 2003, 09:24 PM
I read Cold Zero and thought it was a good book. But like you said, you do have to bite your tongue on occasion and go with the story.

As for the ROE, I believe that LEOs must come under the same rules the military have. If you are told to shoot an unarmed and non-threatening civilian, it should be obvious it is an unlawful order and the shooter should refuse. If someone does claim the ROE have been changed allowing this and the shooter does take the shot and kill the unarmed civilian, the shooter should be held responsible for murder.

Remember all of the death camp Nazis that claimed "But I was just following orders!" ?

DMK
February 23, 2003, 09:45 PM
When I read the book and listened to the agent's comment in the show, I guess I was looking for a description of some kind of threatening action that would justify the shooting.

It was left very vauge, and the only explanations I've seen were the clearly troubling(to everyone) ROE and the tunnel vision of the scope.

IMO, that's not enough. I'm fully, 100% supportive of bringing cop killers to justice, but agents and officers of the law should never be judge, jury and executioners.

beckrodgers
February 23, 2003, 10:19 PM
no way was Vicky Weaver an accident. Not when Lon bragged he could shoot a dime at 200-300 meters. I am with the G man on this one. Put me and him in a room, me with my .45 and he with his sniper rifle or let me stalk him on even terms. In fact, Im surprised someone hasn't already done it. I realize there are no even terms. Knowing this, I always CMA. thanks

DeltaElite
February 23, 2003, 11:04 PM
The Weavers and their friends were different from most of us, but that did not give the FBI the right to shoot them down.
The order that was given was appropriate for a military battlefield, not for Le in the USA.
Shame on the FBI.

Can I retire now? ;)

TheLastBoyScout
February 23, 2003, 11:16 PM
I just thought it was funny that the RM snipers weren't supposed to take shots outside of 500 yds on training stalks because of the risk of a miss, with scoped Accuracy International .338s and match ammo . Meanwhile, US Marines qualify at 500 with out of the box M16A2s and standard ball.

M1911
February 23, 2003, 11:35 PM
If I am not mistaken Larry Potts got promoted.Initially. But the uproar that followed resulted in the promotion being rescinded. IIRC, Potts ended up leaving the FBI (retired?) shortly thereafter.

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